Why did Jesus tell the thief that he would be in paradise with Him that same day?

[Paul4JC]

I said if so, actually, if you really read my post, and not just quote my reply out of context.

So if you believe death held them captive in paradise, are they suffering while they were?

Anytime you don't wish to answer, say so, and we can move on

Is this your assumption?

 

[Guojing]

Is this your assumption?

When people put question marks, they are asking you to clarify, which is what I am doing now.

 

[Paul4JC]

I didn't say it was.

I am saying when scripture states "heart of the Earth", its a reference for Abraham's bosom.

There are two things happening here. 1) Christ's physical body is in the "heart of the earth." the tomb [Jhn 2:19, 21] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." ... 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. [Act 2:31c] ...nor did his body see decay.

2) His Spirit descends to Hades/Sheol the Underworld. [1Pe 3:18b-19 NIV] He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits-- [Act 2:31ab] Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead,
[Eph 4:9 ] 9 (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

 

[Guojing]

2) His Spirit descends to Hades/Sheol the Underworld. [1Pe 3:18b-19 NIV] He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--

If you read the next verse

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

They were disobedient during the times of Noah, meaning they did not believe that a flood was coming.

Who do you think those spirits are?

 

[atpollard]

Question: why did Jesus tell the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise "today" when scripture clearly teaches that Jesus descended to the realm of the dead and then resurrected to spend 40 days with His disciples?

Answer: The best answer I can think of is simply that God views time differently than we do, I guess.

Can anyone resolve this seeming contradiction?

Abraham's Bosom.

Pre-ressurection, the dead went to "Sheol" (the grave) which is a "waiting place". As illustrated in the STORY of Lazarus and the Rich Man, this "holding area" had two parts. Abraham comforted in the "good side of Sheol", then a great chasm separated it from the fires in the "bad side of Sheol". "Today" (literally), Jesus and the thief would be in the "good side of Sheol" (Paradise) where Jesus would tell the good news that they were leaving "Abraham's Bosom" (the Paradise holding place in Sheol) and Jesus would be taking them (spirits) home to heaven. Death and the Grave were about to be defeated.

Later in Revelation (at the END OF EVERYTHING), Death and the Grave would be needed no more and would be completely destroyed ... but for now, people still die so the grave still has a purpose. The souls of saints just no longer need to "WAIT" for Jesus to defeat Death and free them from the grave. At the time of the Thief on the cross, Jesus had not yet been resurrected, so death had not yet been defeated.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus and the thief would be in the "good side of Sheol" (Paradise) where Jesus would tell the good news that they were leaving "Abraham's Bosom" (the Paradise holding place in Sheol) and Jesus would be taking them (spirits) home to heaven.

Will be curious what scripture you use to form this doctrine, if you care to share.

 

[atpollard]

Will be curious what scripture you use to form this doctrine, if you care to share.

I will spare you a detailed exegesis that is subject to debate of minutia and respond with simple observational questions from scripture for you to answer for yourself (no need to answer to me, I am nobody).

In Luke 16, where is Lazarus (this revelation takes place before the resurrection)?
In Revelations 4 and 5, who are the people in Heaven (this revelation takes place after the resurrection)?

 

[Paul4JC]

Who do you think those spirits are?

[2Pe 2:4 NIV] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, (Tartarus) putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

[Jde 1:6 NIV] And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

[1Pe 3:19-20a NIV] After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits-- 20 to those who were disobedient long ago.

[Jde 1:13b NIV] wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

 

[BPPLEE]

Correct ..
Jesus did say it…. but it was them (the Pharisees) who coined the phrase.
According to their Talmudic beliefs the Pharisees believed in all sorts of Babylonian junk including reincarnation…. and several were into even more vial things …. It had been 400 years without a man of God and these guys who were supposed to be the custodians of truth, were anything but that.

The purpose of the what I believe is a parable (but that is irrelevant) is concluded in Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

His intention was not to contradict the entire Old Testament by teaching survival after death. His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they still wouldn’t listen to him

How prophetic it was, as evidenced by his own resurrection from the dead, many of the Pharisees did not believe.

That basically is Jesus telling a lie to make a point. I don’t believe that.

 

[sandman]

That basically is Jesus telling a lie to make a point. I don’t believe that.

Jesus didn't lie ...that is your perception of what I stated....I can't change you assessment.

A parable is a comparison by sustained resemblance; it is an extended simile. The likeness or resemblance must be sought from the entire context or meaning.

If you want to drive something home to someone use what they understand or relate to.

 

[Guojing]

[2Pe 2:4 NIV] For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, (Tartarus) putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

[Jde 1:6 NIV] And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

[1Pe 3:19-20a NIV] After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits-- 20 to those who were disobedient long ago.

[Jde 1:13b NIV] wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

So you agree those spirits cannot be Abraham et al