Learn why universalism is popular, but fatally flawed

[JulieB67]

At least, that's what I take from your statement, for if God willed (wants) all people to be saved, then all people will be saved, for no one can thwart His divine will, not even angels or demons, much less simple human beings.

What is the point of this verse if everyone is going to be ultimately be saved in the end?

II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

He's not willing anyone should perish but that they come to "repentance" which we know is a change of heart/mind. That is the entire key to salvation. This verse makes no sense if he already knows they will ultimately be saved.

Which is why I always ask why is God so long suffering if everyone is going to be saved in the end?

Also what is the point of Satan deceiving the nations in the end? What is God's purpose?

Why does Christ call the Lake of Fire the second death instead of a refinery?

Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

We can't preach against Christ's own words. Destroy in the Greek means destroy "fully".

I don't believe in eternal hell I believe it will be one of the former things that passes away but I do believe Christ when he calls it the second death, it doens't mean life in hell but it also doesn't mean life anew as well. I've yet to see a verse that says anyone comes out of the Lake of Fire alive. I've seen verses that state we will be refined. But those verses point to our lifetimes, not the Lake of Fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. I don't believe Christ would call it the second death if it didn't mean just that -death. Which coincides with the entire bible -life or death.

To me this is just a very dangerous teaching. I would believe if it were in the Bible. I've dropped many false doctrines over the years which couldn't be backed up in the Bible. But we have to heed the warnings all over the Bible and yes, Christ's and the disciples as well. Our Father wants the wicked to turn from their ways. But at judgement day that's too late. Anyone not found written in the book of life will be thrown in, that is the second death.

But apparently the book of "life" has no importance whatsoever.

Christ is Savior to the entire world but that just means he's it. He's the only way we can achieve salvation.

 

[Der Alte]

Hi - Thank-you for the reply.

Before going into the "saved" or "unsaved" interpretation, I wanted to focus on the actual words that Christ uses. They are important within the context of the parable. The phrase "blessed from the foundation of the world" in v. 34 takes us back to the Genesis creation account found in Gen 1. The term "blessed" (Gk: "ευλογημενοι") found in Mat 25:34 is also being used in Gen 1:28 (I'm using the LXX that you mentioned you prefer from the EOB). The Mat 25:34 account uses εὐλογέω as a perfect tense participle while the Gen 1:28 account uses the aorist tense indicative mood form of the verb. Both essentially say the same thing but are viewed from different perspectives. They both describe a past tense event. However, the Mat 25:34 participle moves from the past into the present. And that too is an important distinction in the parable. What is more important is what is being "blessed" in the Gen 1 account.

Your comments on this part would be welcomed.

Scholars do not usually rely on translation Hebrew to Greek to determine the correct meaning of O.T. words. Are you trying to play games? Matt 25:34 does NOT say, as you claim, "blessed from the from the foundation of the world." If you have a serious question let me know.

 

[TahitiRun]

Scholars do not usually rely on translation Hebrew to Greek to determine the correct meaning of O.T. words. Are you trying to play games? Matt 25:34 does NOT say, as you claim, "blessed from the from the foundation of the world." If you have a serious question let me know.

I realize that, it says blessed of My Father......foundation of the world, I shortened it to be brief. Here is the full text:

Come, the blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom that has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

The LXX is actually a fine translation of the Hebrew. It's actually quoted more often in the NT than the Hebrew text itself. I thought you preferred it and the reason I used it.

SEPTUAGINT QUOTES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - Scripture Catholic

Of the approximately 300 Old Testament quotes in the New Testament, approximately 2/3 of them came from the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament) which included the deuterocanonical books that the Protestants later removed. This is additional evidence that Jesus and the...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Septuagint Quotes in the New Testament

preachersinstitute.com

 

[Light of the East]

He's not willing anyone should perish but that they come to "repentance" which we know is a change of heart/mind. That is the entire key to salvation. This verse makes no sense if he already knows they will ultimately be saved.

I am really not getting your point here. Sorry to be so dense. All I see is that it is God's will that no one perish, which of course leads me to think that God's will is always accomplished, and no sentient creature or event can thwart that will.

Which is why I always ask why is God so long suffering if everyone is going to be saved in the end?

I believe He is long-suffering because He wants us to avoid hell. Yes, there is a hell, but it is not like Roman Catholicism teaches. It is the torment of being in the presence of Christ and facing the truth of your sins. Not being able to lie, hide, or prevaricate your way out of what you have done. Christ and Paul both promised we will be reimbursed for all the deeds we have done - the wicked with curse and the good with blessing.

This is one problem I am having with those who are in the forefront of teaching about Universal Restoration. They are very strong on promoting the love of God and His redemption, but not so much warning people to repent lest they suffer for their sins. To preach Universalism without warning people that Christ said we will reap according to what we have sown here on earth is to give people a false hope and free pass to sin with the thought of impunity because after all, God is letting everyone into heaven, right?

Also what is the point of Satan deceiving the nations in the end? What is God's purpose?

Unknown. This the secret council of the Blessed Trinity. There is a purpose. But it is unknown to us

Why does Christ call the Lake of Fire the second death instead of a refinery?

Because you have been conditioned to see it in that manner. The fire in the next life is God Himself.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Furthermore, fire is spoken of often in terms of refining. For instance, the fire of the fiery furnace which Christ warned about:

Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The word "Furnace" is Kaminos in Greek. It means a smelting furnace. In other words, a place where the fire cleanses out the impurities. This also aligns with 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul talks about the fire that will burn up the wood, hay, and stubble of our lives.

The fire of God is the passionate fire of His love. That fire is redemptive, healing, and cleansing. Love never hurts the object of its affection. It always seeks the good of the beloved. The extremity of this love is seen in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Der Alte]

I am really not getting your point here. Sorry to be so dense. All I see is that it is God's will that no one perish, which of course leads me to think that God's will is always accomplished, and no sentient creature or event can thwart that will.


I believe He is long-suffering because He wants us to avoid hell. Yes, there is a hell, but it is not like Roman Catholicism teaches. It is the torment of being in the presence of Christ and facing the truth of your sins. Not being able to lie, hide, or prevaricate your way out of what you have done. Christ and Paul both promised we will be reimbursed for all the deeds we have done - the wicked with curse and the good with blessing.

This is one problem I am having with those who are in the forefront of teaching about Universal Restoration. They are very strong on promoting the love of God and His redemption, but not so much warning people to repent lest they suffer for their sins. To preach Universalism without warning people that Christ said we will reap according to what we have sown here on earth is to give people a false hope and free pass to sin with the thought of impunity because after all, God is letting everyone into heaven, right?



Unknown. This the secret council of the Blessed Trinity. There is a purpose. But it is unknown to us


Because you have been conditioned to see it in that manner. The fire in the next life is God Himself.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Furthermore, fire is spoken of often in terms of refining. For instance, the fire of the fiery furnace which Christ warned about:
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
The word "Furnace" is Kaminos in Greek. It means a smelting furnace. In other words, a place where the fire cleanses out the impurities. This also aligns with 1 Corinthians 3 where Paul talks about the fire that will burn up the wood, hay, and stubble of our lives.
The fire of God is the passionate fire of His love. That fire is redemptive, healing, and cleansing. Love never hurts the object of its affection. It always seeks the good of the beloved. The extremity of this love is seen in the Parable of the Prodigal Son.

κάμινος, ου, ἡ (Aeschyl., Hdt. et al.; IG IV, 332; pap, LXX, TestSol 11:7; ParJer 6:23 [fig. for Egypt]; Joseph., loanw. in rabb. S. Schwyzer II 34 n. 2; B-D-F §49, 1) oven, furnace καπνὸς καμίνου (Ex 19:18; Job 41:12) Rv 9:2. κ. τοῦ πυρός fiery oven, kiln (Da 3:6, 11 al.) of potters’ kilns (Sir 27:5) 2 Cl 8:2. Of smelters’ furnaces (X., Vectig. 4, 49; Diod S 5, 13, 1; 5, 27, 2; Ezk 22:20, 22) Rv 1:15; MPol 15:2. κ. πυρός as the place of the fiery trial of the three young men (Da 3:20ff; 4 Macc 16:21; Jos., Ant. 10, 213) 1 Cl 45:7. AcPl Ha 6, 20 in imagery of Rome. Fig. of hell Mt 13:42, 50.—DELG. M-M. TW.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 506.​

 

[Michie]

Once I was flying from the west coast to Virginia for some training. The man in the seat next to me was reading the Bible. To start a conversation I said, "That's a good book. I like how it ends." He smiled. Then I said, "You are a military aviator." He looked surprised and asked, "Do I have a sign on my forehead?" I said "No, the [aviator] glasses and the [military] haircut. I had the same glasses and previously had the haircut. I was shot down 5 times in Viet Nam '68 and earned one Purple Heart. Vets affectionately called it the V.C. Sharpshooter medal.
Having said that. I have read the end of the book.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.​

The last book of the Bible, the last chapter, ten more vss. "The End," no more death, no more salvation. Only, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still..." Fade to black, Run end titles.
And OBTW Rev 21:5 does say, "behold, I make all things new." But three vss. later vs. 8, eight groups of sinners; the fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters, and liars, are thrown into the lake of fire which is still called the "second death." I suggest you be more attentive to context.

Worth repeating imo.

 

[FireDragon76]

I mean who doesn't want to tell themselves everyone will be saved? It scratches that itch in people's ears that need scratching and takes away consequences for our actions.

This is an odd argument. Without Hell we'ld just become unsocialized animals? That doesn't seem right.

You are aware there are religions that don't focus on everlasting punishments after death, and some people in those religions live lives of exemplary virtue? Could it be those people find intrinsic rewards for virtue? Isn't this better than scaring people into merely an outward conformity?

Religion cannot protect us from real psychopaths, people that simply don't care about the pain and suffering they cause to others. In fact, often times psychopaths gravitate to religion, because it is an opportunity to control and manipulate people.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

This is an odd argument. Without Hell we'ld just become unsocialized animals? That doesn't seem right.

You are aware there are religions that don't focus on everlasting punishments after death, and some people in those religions live lives of exemplary virtue? Could it be those people find intrinsic rewards for virtue? Isn't this better than scaring people into merely an outward conformity?

Religion cannot protect us from real psychopaths, people that simply don't care about the pain and suffering they cause to others. In fact, often times psychopaths gravitate to religion, because it is an opportunity to control and manipulate people.

there could be thousands of religions that don't mention punishment or hell, but they'd all just be empty promisses and lies.

 

[FireDragon76]

there could be thousands of religions that don't mention punishment or hell, but they'd all just be empty promisses and lies.

Have you any idea how intellectually vacuous that sounds? Christianity is based on faith. It doesn't make you all-knowing.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Have you any idea how intellectually vacuous that sounds? Christianity is based on faith. It doesn't make you all-knowing.

using the word vacuous doesn't make your point any more true. in fact true intellect is taking something complex and speaking about it in a way that is easy to digest and understand. you could use the largest words found in the dictionary to defend your point, but if it's false it's still false. Jesus is a great example, though He was God and could have spoken in a way only the most well versed people could understand, He chose to explain things plainly in a way that anyone can hear and understand. I'm speaking of course about the way that He spoke plainly to His disciples.

 

[FireDragon76]

using the word vacuous doesn't make your point any more true. in fact true intellect is taking something complex and speaking about it in a way that is easy to digest and understand. you could use the largest words found in the dictionary to defend your point, but if it's false it's still false. Jesus is a great example, though He was God and could have spoken in a way only the most well versed people could understand, He chose to explain things plainly in a way that anyone can hear and understand. I'm speaking of course about the way that He spoke plainly to His disciples.

Vacuous = empty, without content.

You don't really know for sure who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, and whether non-Christians are just following "lies". The Christian religion gives no one that kind of certainty. That's why it's called faith. All else is mere presumption.

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

Vacuous = empty, without content.

You don't really know for sure who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. The Christian religion gives no one that kind of certainty. That's why it's called faith. All else is mere presumption.

Where did I claim to know who is going to Heaven or not? I remember the conversation was just about whether or not Hell exists, then you proceeded to say there are many religions that don't believe in a Hell. Now we're jumping to not knowing who goes to Heaven or not, this doesn't follow a linear train of thought just a jumping from one point to another. Please show me the quote that mentioned me knowing who goes to Heaven.

 

[FireDragon76]

Where did I claim to know who is going to Heaven or not? I remember the conversation was just about whether or not Hell exists, then you proceeded to say there are many religions that don't believe in a Hell. Now we're jumping to not knowing who goes to Heaven or not, this doesn't follow a linear train of thought just a jumping from one point to another. Please show me the quote that mentioned me knowing who goes to Heaven.

You claim Hell is such an important doctrine that it cannot be questioned by rational, sane people. Please explain how there are religions that work just fine without it?

 

[Michie]

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[a]; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas[c] or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

1 Corinthians 3:18-23

 

[SeventhFisherofMen]

You claim Hell is such an important doctrine that it cannot be questioned by rational, sane people. Please explain how there are religions that work just fine without it?

This is an odd argument. Without Hell we'ld just become unsocialized animals? That doesn't seem right.

You are aware there are religions that don't focus on everlasting punishments after death, and some people in those religions live lives of exemplary virtue? Could it be those people find intrinsic rewards for virtue? Isn't this better than scaring people into merely an outward conformity?

Religion cannot protect us from real psychopaths, people that simply don't care about the pain and suffering they cause to others. In fact, often times psychopaths gravitate to religion, because it is an opportunity to control and manipulate people.

 

[Light of the East]

You cannot ignore the justice of Almighty God and cherry pick your favorite universalist verses out of context to lead souls down the wide road we were warned against. Sorry.

I find it beyond ironic that you claim that "I" cherry pick verses when you do exactly the same. In addition, you not only use only the verses which seem to support your ideas, but you don't even use them properly, i.e., you don't let the Greek speak for itself. Greek scholars have informed us that there is no word in the Western Bible that means "eternal" when it refers to our life in the next age. You don't care, and you and Der Alter consider yourselves smarter than both the Early Fathers who spoke Greek and taught Universalism and the scholars who have a mile long string of PhD's after their names, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli.

You also have no concept of justice whatsoever. God told us quite clearly in the scriptures what justice is - lex talionis - the punishment matches the offense and does not exceed it, like those wonderful Puritans in New England who hung a hungry little child for stealing a loaf of bread. There is no sin which merits eternal torment, and for you to think this shows that you neither understand lex talionis or justice.

 

[Michie]

I find it beyond ironic that you claim that "I" cherry pick verses when you do exactly the same. In addition, you not only use only the verses which seem to support your ideas, but you don't even use them properly, i.e., you don't let the Greek speak for itself. Greek scholars have informed us that there is no word in the Western Bible that means "eternal" when it refers to our life in the next age. You don't care, and you and Der Alter consider yourselves smarter than both the Early Fathers who spoke Greek and taught Universalism and the scholars who have a mile long string of PhD's after their names, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli.

You also have no concept of justice whatsoever. God told us quite clearly in the scriptures what justice is - lex talionis - the punishment matches the offense and does not exceed it, like those wonderful Puritans in New England who hung a hungry little child for stealing a loaf of bread. There is no sin which merits eternal torment, and for you to think this shows that you neither understand lex talionis or justice.

You are the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating lalala. I mean even in your home forum you are being proven wrong. That speaks for itself. You are obviously stating universalism as a fact. Something you halfheartedly denied in TAW. Completely disingenuous.

 

[Der Alte]

I find it beyond ironic that you claim that "I" cherry pick verses when you do exactly the same. In addition, you not only use only the verses which seem to support your ideas, but you don't even use them properly, i.e., you don't let the Greek speak for itself. Greek scholars have informed us that there is no word in the Western Bible that means "eternal" when it refers to our life in the next age. You don't care, and you and Der Alter consider yourselves smarter than both the Early Fathers who spoke Greek and taught Universalism and the scholars who have a mile long string of PhD's after their names, such as Dr. Illaria Ramelli.
You also have no concept of justice whatsoever. God told us quite clearly in the scriptures what justice is - lex talionis - the punishment matches the offense and does not exceed it, like those wonderful Puritans in New England who hung a hungry little child for stealing a loaf of bread. There is no sin which merits eternal torment, and for you to think this shows that you neither understand lex talionis or justice.

Since you have dragged me into this discussion I feel it imperative that I respond. The only ECF that I have seen who supposedly taught "Universalism" i.e. UR is Origen but I have not seen any direct quotes. As for Dr. Ilaria Ramelli I have proven her to have played fast and loose with the truth from her own words, more than once. Do a search under my name and you will find the posts.
Edited to add: Link to post wher I responded to you.

Would God Really Send Someone to Hell?

We are not to conform to the world’s standards. Whassat got to do with the accuracy of a translation? The world says 2+2=4, should we reject that fo the sake of nonconformity?

www.christianforums.com

You, as with virtually all UR-ites, claim that "aionios" means "age." Sorry to burst your bubble but "aionios" is an adjective and "age" is a noun. There is no way, no how that an adjective can be translated as a noun<period> end of sentence. And AFAIK there is no combination of words which can change the noun age into an adjective. Just for grins here is a word study that I did. Ten vss. where Jesus, Himself, defines/describes "aionios" as eternal/everlasting.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal e.g. "world" two times..
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[5] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios life” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted aionios life with “shall not see life.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.
Please note. Any "could be" argument is invalid. You must conclusively show that anything I posted is incorrect and your counter argument is correct.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

We should be careful not to weave with scripture what we want to happen in the future rather than what scripture plainly states. Something as serious as eternal punishment somehow actually not being eternal would be stated plainly in the Bible. To say otherwise is to contradict scripture. If you showed a verse that plainly said punishment that is not eternal then i might listen.

But the truth is the Bible calls Hell eternal punishment and does not say otherwise.

you need to read the writings of many of the early church fathers many believed that the word translated as eternal in the English and Latin translations should read of the age or pertaining to the age , it has an end it is not eternal ,

 

[Der Alte]

you need to read the writings of many of the early church fathers many believed that the word translated as eternal in the English and Latin translations should read of the age or pertaining to the age , it has an end it is not eternal ,

Can you back any of this up with quotes from 2 or 3 ECF who say "the word translated as eternal in the English and Latin translations should read of the age or pertaining to the age, it has an end it is not eternal"? An adjective describes it has neither beginning nor end.
The adjective "aionios" can NEVER be translated as the noun "age!" There is no word or combination of words in English which can make an adjective a noun.
Here is how Origen defines "aionios" in John 4:14

Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] Commentary on the Book of John​

(59) He [Heracleon] is not wrong, however, when he says that the water that the Savior gives is of his spirit and power.[John 4:14]​

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.​

Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 59–60). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

Aionios life given by Jesus John 4:14 "never perishes 2x," "remains,""not taken away,""not consumed."