Where Arminianism Fails.

[renniks]

Paul almost directly quotes Jeremiah. Don't you think they knew the Torah? They would make the connection that Calvinist somehow miss.

Two different writers, Jeremiah and Paul. Both mean something different.

 

[Dave L]

Paul almost directly quotes Jeremiah. Don't you think they knew the Torah? They would make the connection that Calvinist somehow miss.

Two different applications.

 

[Dave L]

Fire is forever, stay is temporary.

Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell

 

[renniks]

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, not a work of the flesh.

Why are people in the faith chapter being commended for having faith if God irresistibly forced it on them?

 

[Dave L]

Why are people in the faith chapter being commended for having faith if God irresistibly forced it on them?

He didn't. He changed them from unbelievers into believers and they are thankful for it.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Ten Foundational Verses for Eternal Punishment in Hell

All examples of high prophetic rhetoric and idiomatic language. Violent language, restorative purpose.

1. all flesh shall come to worship before me,
Sounds like universalism.

2. everlasting contempt.
Contempt not torment on a bbq.

3. the hell of fire
Gehenna of fire - God's hospital.

4. eternal punishment
punishment = kolasin (correction) not timoreisis (retribution) - to be fixed up for ever

5. where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
A worm and no man. The doctrine of the undying worm, eh?

6. the punishment of eternal destruction
The old man utterly destroyed

7. punishment of eternal fire
Kolasin corrective punishment

8. the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever
Until they see the light and get saved

9. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,
The torment is a memory, smoke has gone. The worshippers are enslaved by the beast

10. tormented day and night forever and ever.
The devil just keeps resisting. He's a tough nut, but even he'll submit one day! I hope.

Now I'll be mean, forgive me brother:
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

 

[zoidar]

narrow is the way and few there be that find it?

It also says: "when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"

Does that mean maybe none?

 

[Dave L]

All examples of high prophetic rhetoric and idiomatic language. Violent language, restorative purpose.

1. all flesh shall come to worship before me,
Sounds like universalism.

2. everlasting contempt.
Contempt not torment on a bbq.

3. the hell of fire
Gehenna of fire - God's hospital.

4. eternal punishment
punishment = kolasin (correction) not timoreisis (retribution) - to be fixed up for ever

5. where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.”
A worm and no man. The doctrine of the undying worm, eh?

6. the punishment of eternal destruction
The old man utterly destroyed

7. punishment of eternal fire
Kolasin corrective punishment

8. the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever
Until they see the light and get saved

9. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night,
The torment is a memory, smoke has gone. The worshippers are enslaved by the beast

10. tormented day and night forever and ever.
The devil just keeps resisting. He's a tough nut, but even he'll submit one day! I hope.

Now I'll be mean, forgive me brother:
100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind

But this is not the full picture and it forces scripture to say what it doesn't. Put up any and I'll show you the error.

 

[-57]

Why would wild olive branches be warned against getting broken off, if it could not happen?

What does "broken off"mean?

 

[-57]

Saul of Tarsus was kicking against the goads, he had been RESISTING...

No one can snatch anyone out of Jesus' hand, no one powerful enough to do so, but a person can walk away from being a believer.

Or Jesus can walk away from them, saying "I know ye not from whence ye are", not always saying "I never knew you"

If one "walkaway's" from believing...they were deceived. Even deception can't snatch you away.

 

[-57]

No formula.

If someone asks you how to get saved and you tell them how...that's a formula.

 

[-57]

Grace is resistible, we are told not to quench the Spirit

There's a differance between resisting salvation and doing Gods work.

 

[-57]

Why is it called eternal life..if you can lose it?

 

[-57]

From what I read nothing can seperate you from the love of God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But this is not the full picture and it forces scripture to say what it doesn't. Put up any and I'll show you the error.

Apart from the 100 I just linked? Okay, I'll run a tight formation:

There will be a time of restoration/ regeneration/ renewal of all things.

whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt 19:28)

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" (Rev 21:5)

And what occurs then? The nations as enemies are consumed by fire only to return repentant and eligible for healing.

And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Rev 22:21)

Pretty hard to be graced by damnation ain't it? Look forward to your rebuttal on the morrow, it's past my bedtime.

 

[-57]

That's the point. If we're essentially created to sin, and given no way out, then the creator in such a case would've created beings with no other ultimate purpose than to suffer eternally, with Him being the sole cause of their sin.

Who ever said God had to save anyone?

...are you that holy?

 

[-57]

So is the faith that God provides not perfect for salvation? Does one have to wait to be glorified before their faith is perfect for salvation?

God saves you as He gives you faith.

 

[Dave L]

Apart from the 100 I just linked? Okay, I'll run a tight formation:

There will be a time of restoration/ regeneration/ renewal of all things.

>whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

>> Restoration of things. Not people.

>Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matt 19:28)

>> Only believers are Israel in the New Covenant. Good works merit rewards.

>He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" (Rev 21:5)

>> Thing = environment.

>And what occurs then? The nations as enemies are consumed by fire only to return repentant and eligible for healing.

>> eternal destruction remains forever

>And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (Rev 20:9)

>> This is happening now in the spiritual realm. John spoke in symbols depicting spiritual realities using physical objects.

>The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. (Rev 21:24)

>> this is in the New Heavens and Earth.

>and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b)

>>Only the saved are healed.

>The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Rev 22:21)

>> all = the saved only, the rest are in eternal torments.

>Pretty hard to be graced by damnation ain't it? Look forward to your rebuttal on the morrow, it's past my bedtime.

>> based on seeing what you want to see while ignoring the rest of scripture.

[/QUOTE]

 

[section9+1]

The "Church is elect. If I am in the "Church" I am elect because of where I am. The choice of my position is mine. If I get on the train to Chicago I am elect to go to Chicago because the train is going to Chicago. Getting on the train was my choice. Choices have meaning. You can't just plug meaning into a meaningless system. All you can do is lie to yourself.

 

[Dave L]

The "Church is elect. If I am in the "Church" I am elect because of where I am. The choice of my position is mine. If I get on the train to Chicago I am elect to go to Chicago because the train is going to Chicago. Getting on the train was my choice. Choices have meaning. You can't just plug meaning into a meaningless system. All you can do is lie to yourself.

But all are blind to Christ unless born again.

“When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 16:13–17 (KJV 1900)