Where Arminianism Fails.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If someone asks you how to get saved and you tell them how...that's a formula.

Sin?

 

[section9+1]

"But all are blind to Christ unless born again."
A meaningless system.

 

[Dave L]

"But all are blind to Christ unless born again."
A meaningless system.

From your human level of thinking. But not for God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

That's select mercy - even favouritism.

Like choosing the nation of Israel?

Do you see Israel as more worthy than any other nation on earth to have picked all those years ago?

Yet God picked them... and we don't question his favouritism in the matter, and just say God knows best, or it's God's will to bring His Light to the earth through this people..

You know Muslims STILL hate Israel for that favouritism? lol.. The sons of the free woman and the sons of thr slave woman fight over it to this very day not even realizing God transcended them all while they were busy with their pride and their lust..

So why not us? they aren't "better".. and they aren't better in some appreciable way, but it IS about submitting our wills to God's - and saying if God chooses it so, then so I submit..

There are times we won't or can't understand on our side of time why God wills what He wills.. look at Jonah. The thought of Nineveh being forgiven for their sins sickened him so much that he ran from the task at first... and was almost angry at God more than once over it..

How many would be angry at God over my forgiveness? Probably more than one!

We don't always know why God wills the things He wills, it is only our job to submit to His will. We can see it and rationalize to ourselves about this that or the other - but how often do we just submit our wills and give it over to Him, and His Will, knowing it's perfect even if we don't have a rational explanation we understand..?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

There are examples of people becoming followers of Jesus and then walking away - John 6:66.
How do any of us know whether they were "drawn by God to salvation" - whatever that means? They DID follow Jesus; then they left.

follwing Christ is not the same as being drawn by the Father. the early church had anti-christs in their midst who were "following" Jesus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Judas was once truly Jesus' disciple.

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. He was created for the very purpose and role as the traitor who would betray Jesus. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.

John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.


John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"

Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."

Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."

18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.

6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.


hope this helps !!!

 

[zoidar]

Like choosing the nation of Israel?

Do you see Israel as more worthy than any other nation on earth to have picked all those years ago?

Yet God picked them... and we don't question his favouritism in the matter, and just say God knows best, or it's God's will to bring His Light to the earth through this people..

You know Muslims STILL hate Israel for that favouritism? lol.. The sons of the free woman and the sons of thr slave woman fight over it to this very day not even realizing God transcended them all while they were busy with their pride and their lust..

So why not us? they aren't "better".. and they aren't better in some appreciable way, but it IS about submitting our wills to God's - and saying if God chooses it so, then so I submit..

There are times we won't or can't understand on our side of time why God wills what He wills.. look at Jonah. The thought of Nineveh being forgiven for their sins sickened him so much that he ran from the task at first... and was almost angry at God more than once over it..

How many would be angry at God over my forgiveness? Probably more than one!

We don't always know why God wills the things He wills, it is only our job to submit to His will. We can see it and rationalize to ourselves about this that or the other - but how often do we just submit our wills and give it over to Him, and His Will, knowing it's perfect even if we don't have a rational explanation we understand..?

A good thing to remember is that not only Israelites were saved in the Old Covenant. Also God picked Israel for a bigger purpose, that the world would be saved through the Jews, or specifically One Jew

 

[Hazelelponi]

A good thing to remember is that not only Israelites were saved in the Old Covenant. Also God picked Israel for a bigger purpose, that the world would be saved through the Jews, or specifically One Jew

Most definitely!

The choice still on the surface can seem an arbitrary choice though - one a great many people cannot understand..

My point is just that sometimes, it is simply our job to submit our own will, and give it over to HIM.

Instead of saying this is not a God I can serve, or that is not a God I can serve - but instead say this is GOD, and HIM I serve. We can't create our own god, in other words..we either accept, or reject.

 

[-57]

Sin?

????

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

????

!!!!

 

[zoidar]

Most definitely!

The choice still on the surface can seem an arbitrary choice though - one a great many people cannot understand..

My point is just that sometimes, it is simply our job to submit our own will, and give it over to HIM.

Instead of saying this is not a God I can serve, or that is not a God I can serve - but instead say this is GOD, and HIM I serve. We can't create our own god, in other words..we either accept, or reject.

Sure, but the "problem" is that we have a different view of God. Would you be willing to accept the "God of the Arminians" ? (not saying we serve a different God, only have different view of God).

 

[Hazelelponi]

!!!!

I have to say I'm confused to your response as well.

Most people are a bit wordy, and usually more than one or two are required for others to understand what someone intends to convey..

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The I AM WHO I AM ?
Sure !

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I have to say I'm confused to your response as well.

Most people are a bit wordy, and usually more than one or two are required for others to understand what someone intends to convey..

Remember when Jesus talked with His permanent disciples ?

How often , even after they were with Him 'long enough',
Jesus chastised or even rebuked them
for their 'little' faith, and
His Own Permanent Disciples had not understood Him nor the Father
UNTIL .... hmmmm.....

 

[Josheb]

Arminianism tends to stray to a very practical sort of soteriology that revolves around your responsibility...

I'll reply to the op-relevant content in that post when I have more time but for now I would like to note for the record that sentence I've just quoted is self-contradictory.

If Arminianism has strayed from what the Bible tells us about God and His sovereignty in saving someone from what is otherwise an incapacitating condition for the sinner then it is not practical.

Furthermore, sinners are culpable, not responsible. Having sinned they are no longer capable of coming to God on thier own. It is called "total depravity," and every single major soteriological model in Christendom has long- and woell-understood that concept and adhered to it. This means all those scripture verses and passages instructing the unrepentant to repent and believe are highlighting the incapacity of the sinner, not implying volitional liberty and power to be soteriologically responsive. And... as I have already noted, the vast majority of these passages are said to people already living in a covenant relationship with a God in Whom they already believe. Not a single one of those passages applies to the God-denier.

So: a single sentence that is 1) self-contradictory and 2) highlights a presuppositional failing of Arminianism.


I'll get back to the rest of the post later.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Sure, but the "problem" is that we have a different view of God. Would you be willing to accept the "God of the Arminians" ?

Absolutely I would if it were the true God..

I said something to God a few years ago, well before I was ever saved. I told God that I didn't care if I was right or wrong, I just wanted to know His Truth, and that if He showed me His Truth in a manner I knew it was from Him and not men, that I would follow HIM no matter the cost.

And God led me here.

I am perfectly willing to admit this may not be the end of the knowledge of HIM.. I just want to serve God.

So yes absolutely - but when Arminians run around dismissing the half of what scripture tells us, and whenever God's sovereignty is brought up say things like "I could never serve a God like that" well, I just can't take them seriously as it seems most are far more interested in their own feelings over a true desire to know God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mix up , mixed up ?
First, the good > (HALLELUYAH to YAHUWEH! in JESUS!) >

I said something to God a few years ago, well before I was ever saved. I told God that I didn't care if I was right or wrong, I just wanted to know His Truth, and that if He showed me His Truth in a manner I knew it was from Him and not men, that I would follow HIM no matter the cost. And God led me here. I am perfectly willing to admit this may not be the end of the knowledge of HIM.. I just want to serve God.

In line with all Scripture, harmony with God's Plan and Purpose, abiding in Jesus.
==================================

So yes absolutely - but when Arminians run around dismissing the half of what scripture tells us,

When <anyone> departs from Scripture. A's, C's, W's, X's whoever....
continued>

and whenever God's sovereignty is brought up say things like "I could never serve a God like that" well, I just can't take them seriously as it seems most are far more interested in their own feelings over a true desire to know God.

Whenever <anyone> A's, C's, W's, X's whoever....
and
since most people in the world are included in <anyone>,
and actually most people in the world are far worse than <anyone> so far noted and quoted here....
<anyone> will be judged by God, of course.
Ekklesia , properly, righteously, judged today. No matter if they are A's, C's, W's, X's whoever....

 

[zoidar]

Absolutely I would if it were the true God

That's all I wanted to hear. God bless you sister! I say it like you, if the "Calvinist God" were the true God, I would of course still be of service to Him. There's just One God, and Him we serve Arminian or Calvinist alike.

Btw, I don't consider myself an Arminian... or Calvinist, or Lutheran for that matter. I'm a protestant Christian.

 

[zoidar]

...

Actually, something which may be hard for an Calvinist to understand is that I had doubts Calvinists actually were saved. But since speaking to you on PM, it was clear to me we are brothers and sisters in Christ. The harvest is great! It made me glad to go to the house of the Lord (Psalms 122:1)

 

[-57]

That's all I wanted to hear. God bless you sister! I say it like you, if the "Calvinist God" were the true God, I would of course still be of service to Him. There's just One God, and Him we serve Arminian or Calvinist alike.

Btw, I don't consider myself an Arminian... or Calvinist, or Lutheran for that matter. I'm a protestant Christian.

Most people when they become believers don't even know what an Arminian or Calvinist is.

I started out as a Arminian...you must accept Christ, you can lose your salvation... then when I understood the doctrins put forth by those aligned with Calvins teachings I slowly changed.

According to many Arminians some where along the line I lost my salvation.