Where Arminianism Fails.

[Dave L]

Maybe, maybe not. There is no given number in the Bible. At least there is no word in the Bible that says that God is glorified by people ending up in hell.

narrow is the way and few there be that find it?

 

[Dave L]

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

this was a saved person, not reprobate.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

it's their sentencing.

Yes, a LIFE sentence.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, a LIFE sentence.

eternal fire

 

[Shrewd Manager]

this was a saved person, not reprobate.

Jesus is the saviour of all mankind, even the incestuous.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

eternal fire

The divine fire of God, who is love. Omega plan.

 

[renniks]

Our faith is the work of God, not us.

Faith is not a work.

 

[Dave L]

Jesus is the saviour of all mankind, even the incestuous.

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:6 (KJV 1900)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Faith is not a work.

It is if it is a condition you must choose to meet.

 

[Dave L]

The divine fire of God, who is love. Omega plan.

“For our God is a consuming fire.” Hebrews 12:29 (KJV 1900)

 

[renniks]

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)

18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Why did God have patience on vessels of destruction? Israel were vessels of wrath because of their disobedience. Election is not unconditional.

 

[Dave L]

18 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear[a] my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it.

Why did God have patience on vessels of destruction? Israel were vessels of wrath because of their disobedience. Election is not unconditional.

Two different writers, Jeremiah and Paul. Both mean something different.

 

[rockytopva]

But as an Arminian there is a huge difference in how you define saving faith and how the bible defines it.

I thankfully did not have a Calvinist around to complicate it.

 

[Strong in Him]

I'm not making a case for Christian Univeralism, I'm merely answering your question about it. It simply teaches that people go to hell for a time, not for an eternity. It doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just trying to clarify these common misconceptions about it. It's good to address a subject with an understanding of what it teaches and not a caricature of such.

Ok; sorry, and thank you.

 

[renniks]

It is if it is a condition you must choose to meet.

Nope. You are arguing against the Bible.
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ..."


John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

 

[Dave L]

I thankfully did not have a Calvinist around to complicate it.

Arminianism turns grace into works and faith into a work of the flesh that is supposed to save.

 

[Dave L]

Nope. You are arguing against the Bible.
"And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him."

"By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. ..."


John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, not a work of the flesh.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:6 (KJV 1900)

Correct, their sentence has been carried out. Next station - restoration:

And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." (Rev 21:5)

Differing weights are an abomination to the LORD, And a false scale is not good. (Pro 20:23)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41 (KJV 1900)

For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; (Mk 9:49-50a)

And after the fire?

the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b).

 

[Dave L]

Correct, their sentence has been carried out. Next station - restoration:

And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." (Rev 21:5)

Differing weights are an abomination to the LORD, And a false scale is not good. (Pro 20:23)



For everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is good; (Mk 9:49-50a)

And after the fire?

the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (Rev 22:2b).

eternal = forever.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

eternal = forever.

Fire is forever, stay is temporary.