Where Arminianism Fails.

[zoidar]

God created us for his glory. Paul says he glorifies his wrath and mercy in the vessels fitted for mercy and the others fitted for wrath. Without sin we cannot know God's love, righteousness, goodness, justice and so on.

Will you quote the exact verses that says God glorfies his wrath.

 

[Dave L]

Nonsense. Show me where that is from in scripture.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)

“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.” John 14:17 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

Will you quote the exact verses that says God glorfies his wrath.

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (KJV 1900)

Check the entire context there's much more.

 

[Strong in Him]

Because Christian universalism doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe - I only that all will eventually believe in Jesus.

One day, every knee will bow and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. People will believe in him when they see him.
But that doesn't mean they will be saved. If they rejected him while they were alive and died with their sins unforgiven, they will not be with God for eternity. THAT would be hell; seeing Jesus, knowing without a doubt that he not only exists but is Lord - and also knowing that you rejected him when you had the chance, refused to go to him for forgiveness and have to spend eternity as an unforgiven sinner with no repentance.

 

[Dave L]

Ok, so we have the ability to fall short or fail to one degree or another in our own development?

Yes, but John says "if we sin", not "when we sin". It's like people say "these things happen". But why do they happen? Because they say "these things happen"......from the comedy "It's a mad mad mad mad world".

 

[HatGuy]

One day, every knee will bow and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. People will believe in him when they see him.
But that doesn't mean they will be saved. If they rejected him while they were alive and died with their sins unforgiven, they will not be with God for eternity. THAT would be hell; seeing Jesus, knowing without a doubt that he not only exists but is Lord - and also knowing that you rejected him when you had the chance, refused to go to him for forgiveness and have to spend eternity as an unforgiven sinner with no repentance.

I'm not making a case for Christian Univeralism, I'm merely answering your question about it. It simply teaches that people go to hell for a time, not for an eternity. It doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just trying to clarify these common misconceptions about it. It's good to address a subject with an understanding of what it teaches and not a caricature of such.

 

[zoidar]

“What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (KJV 1900)

Check the entire context there's much more.

I think it says God was willing to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy. The word "glory" is not connected to vessels of wrath and destruction, but the word "longsuffering".

 

[Shrewd Manager]

If we are sane, we want all men to be saved. If we are biblical we know there is double destination. In my left hand I hold the hope for all men, in my right hand I hold the knowing of the double destination. I never let my hands meet.

Brother, bring your hands together in prayer and let the Spirit cleanse you of doubt and double-mindedness.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm not making a case for Christian Univeralism, I'm merely answering your question about it. It simply teaches that people go to hell for a time, not for an eternity. It doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just trying to clarify these common misconceptions about it. It's good to address a subject with an understanding of what it teaches and not a caricature of such.

The eternal fire is purificatory in function. It is not hell, that's more like Hades (the land of shades, doubt and relativism), which gets cast into the lake of fire, which is God's pure grace and love. May be experienced as torment by some (who stubbornly hang to to their sin attachments), but its purpose is restorative - to destroy the sin and save the sinner.

 

[zoidar]

Brother, bring your hands together in prayer and let the Spirit cleanse you of doubt and double-mindedness.

Thanks for your friendly post! Im not double-minded. Neither is God. I know the wish for God is to save everyone, but also I know that there will be double destinations.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Scripture does not support universal salvation. If you consider all of it.

Many eminent Christian thinkers through the ages would disagree.

The foundational covenants are universal in scope (all the nations shall be blessed, God will ultimately renew all things), the gospel is universal (glad tidings of great joy for all mankind), God is good and His explicit plan is to be all in all, Jesus came to save the whole world, Yeshua means God's Salvation and is the omega. God is love, light, gracious and merciful beyond measure. His enemies are spiritual, He loves His critters so radically that He forgives even the crimes of deicide and regicide. Jesus heals and forgives, chastises all those he loves.

So show me the fine print?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I know that there will be double destinations.

But doesn't God save Israel time and again despite their foolish and wicked ways. Even when He permits destruction, it is always unto salvation. Love never fails, bro, and God who is love must ultmately overcome all resistance. Who can stand against?

 

[Dave L]

Many eminent Christian thinkers through the ages would disagree.

The foundational covenants are universal in scope (all the nations shall be blessed, God will ultimately renew all things), the gospel is universal (glad tidings of great joy for all mankind), God is good and His explicit plan is to be all in all, Jesus came to save the whole world, Yeshua means God's Salvation and is the omega. God is love, light, gracious and merciful beyond measure. His enemies are spiritual, He loves His critters so radically that He forgives even the crimes of deicide and regicide. Jesus heals and forgives, chastises all those he loves.

So show me the fine print?

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

I think it says God was willing to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy. The word "glory" is not connected to vessels of wrath and destruction, but the word "longsuffering".

It still works out that most end up in hell.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

But that doesn't mean they will be saved. If they rejected him while they were alive and died with their sins unforgiven, they will not be with God for eternity. THAT would be hell; seeing Jesus, knowing without a doubt that he not only exists but is Lord - and also knowing that you rejected him when you had the chance, refused to go to him for forgiveness and have to spend eternity as an unforgiven sinner with no repentance.

There may be a distinction between salvation and inheritance here. Many won't make the wedding, nor crowns of righteousness, nor a mansion on the river across from the temple. Some will live in the suburbs, some outside the city, but all may walk by the light of God and the lamp of Christ.

 

[Dave L]

I'm not making a case for Christian Univeralism, I'm merely answering your question about it. It simply teaches that people go to hell for a time, not for an eternity. It doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe. I'm just trying to clarify these common misconceptions about it. It's good to address a subject with an understanding of what it teaches and not a caricature of such.

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 7 (KJV 1900)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?” Romans 9:21–24 (KJV 1900)

I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5)

 

[zoidar]

It still works out that most end up in hell.

Maybe, maybe not. There is no given number in the Bible. At least there is no word in the Bible that says that God is glorified by people ending up in hell.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” Jude 7 (KJV 1900)

But wait, they're back:

"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. (Matt 10:15)

It's hurts to get healed when you're so far gone. The Great Physician needs surgically remove some of those strongholds.

 

[Dave L]

But wait, they're back:

"Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. (Matt 10:15)

It's hurts to get healed when you're so far gone. The Great Physician needs surgically remove some of those strongholds.

it's their sentencing.