Where Arminianism Fails.

[zoidar]

Most people when they become believers don't even know what an Arminian or Calvinist is.

I started out as a Arminian...you must accept Christ, you can lose your salvation... then when I understood the doctrins put forth by those aligned with Calvins teachings I slowly changed.

Interesting! Was there something special that was the clear turning point for you to Calvinism?

 

[zoidar]

Most people when they become believers don't even know what an Arminian or Calvinist is.

That was also very true for me. I heard of the Calvinist/Arminian struggle and also the Lutheran/Catholic debate a few years down my walk with Christ.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Most people when they become believers don't even know what an Arminian or Calvinist is.

The person who led me to Christ was a Calvinist.. and I also married him.

When I was first saved and I walked up to him to tell him for the first time, he ran up to me (I was standing across the room) and he gave me a chaste kiss on the cheek, looked at me and told me he'd been waiting his whole life to greet me as his sister..

then, after that, he said, there's 5 things you need to know - and memorize..

T - Total depravity
U - Unconditional election
L - Limited Atonement
I - Irresistible Grace
P - Preservation of the Saints

And you'll remember it by TULIP, he said..

haha.. so yeah.. He never interfered between myself and my relationship with God, made sure I figured it out mainly on my own, only answering direct questions when I asked directly for the most part.. never pushed.

Except for that one thing. Memorize TULIP.. haha

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The person who led me to Christ was a Calvinist..

And A Christian ?
Still A Christian ?

 

[Hazelelponi]

And A Christian ?
Still A Christian ?

Yes..

 

[-57]

Interesting! Was there something special that was the clear turning point for you to Calvinism?

One point was on OSAS...I use to be a Heb 6 guy. Then I thought about it...we are saved by grace. Not works. But then I understood if we are saved by grace then our works don't hold us in salvation. Once I learned nothing can snatch you from the Fathers hand or Jesus' hand along with nothing can separate you from the love of God....plus more points not mentioned I understood I was secure in my salvation.
Is this a license to sin? Absolutly not.

At one point I was struggling with some of the concepts of soteriology. It was explained to me in an analogy... we were like a person drowning in a lake. Going under for the last time. All we had to do is reach out and grab the life preserver and we could be saved. Then I learned another analogy. Eph 2 tells us we were dead in our sins and trespasses...in other words, laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead. God then dived in and dragged me from the bottom of the lake and regenerated me. I had nothing to do with my salvation as I was spiritually dead.

At this point I had never heard of or even studied TULIP.

As time went on I began to understand if we choose to accept or reject Jesus as our Lord and Savior then that choice pretty much is based upon life experience, what I call happenstance....events out of our control...For all people those events are different. Perhaps a young child learned about Jesus in Sunday school and at a later date because of that early learnings "accepted" Jesus....while the same person in a different scenario may have been raised in an atheistic culture and when presented with Jesus, rejected Jesus. Same guy, different happenstance, different out comes. I don't think happenstance, life's events that may by chance have gone this way or that way is part of the salvation equation.

There's much more and I could expand on each of the points above...but I gave you the nutshell version.

 

[fhansen]

Who ever said God had to save anyone?

...are you that holy?

If God created us to be unholy, then maybe He should be deserving of eternal torment-rather than blaming and punishing some pathetic creature for doing something He created them to do. It'd be like torturing your dog forever and ever for biting the neighbor's cat.

 

[fhansen]

He is knocking. He has been knocking.

TODAY, If you hear His Voice, do not rebel like they did in the wilderness and perished.

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Deuteronomy 1:26-38; Psalm 95:6-11; Hebrews 3:7-19 ...

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30 The LORD your God, who is going before you, will fight for you, as he did for ... you, as a father carries his son, all the way you went until you reached this place. ... Today, if only you would hear his voice, 8 “Do not harden your hearts as you ... hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, ...
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For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by ... …15As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your ... Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had ... we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!

Yes, exhortations to choose rightly, with the possibility of failing implied.

 

[fhansen]

God is not the author of sin. Where do you get that?

If humans cannot help but sin because God predetermined that such should be the case, then He's the direct cause, or author, of all sin. Willing/causing sin/evil is different from allowing it, for a time, for His purposes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If God created us to be unholy, then maybe He should be deserving of eternal torment-rather than blaming and punishing some pathetic creature for doing something He created them to do. It'd be like torturing your dog forever and ever for biting the neighbor's cat.

oh oh. danger will-robinson danger danger ....

At least a dog can be trained in an hour not to bite a cat, even not to chase a cat.

 

[fhansen]

oh oh. danger will-robinson danger danger ....

At least a dog can be trained in an hour not to bite a cat, even not to chase a cat.

That's not the point. Dogs biting things are dogs doing what comes naturally. And some cannot be trained to do otherwise BTW. But either way eternity would be an awfully long time for me to punish my dog-especially if I created him to do the very thing I'm punishing him for-if he had no responsibility for his crimes IOW. I wouldn't trust such a dog-owner/creator.

 

[fhansen]

I think that quote in Romans is put under a specific context where Paul is building a theoretical case that those outside of knowing Christ (or rather, those who don't hear about Christ) may make it to heaven through good works - but he shatters the case for those who have heard the gospel, by starting with Romans 3:23 ("All have fallen short"). In other words, I don't think you can use that verse in the way you are implying.

Such speculation has been raised before-but doesn't fit the context at all IMO. Paul knows that man is still obligated to be righteous under the new covenant-but that this obligation is now to be fulfilled the right way, by love, initiated by a faith that brings us into communion with the only One who can accomplish that love in us, the only One who can justify us IOW. Then the law is fulfilled without being "under the law", meaning to fulfill it by my own efforts. Anyway, this reconciles the New Covenant prophecies, the teachings of Jesus, Paul, James, the whole of Scripture, et al.

 

[renniks]

He didn't. He changed them from unbelievers into believers and they are thankful for it.

You didn't answer the question. Why are people being commended for their faith with it's not their faith? (according to calvinism)

 

[Dave L]

You didn't answer the question. Why are people being commended for their faith with it's not their faith? (according to calvinism)

Because we can feed it or starve it.

 

[renniks]

Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life.

He followed Jesus and preached the gospel. The only reason to believe he was not a true believer is if you don't want to believe a person can fall away from salvation.

 

[renniks]

Because we can feed it or starve it.

That's a very arminian thought. In Calvinism, everything is predestined. You don't get to choose whether your faith grows or not.

 

[Dave L]

@renniks
“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,” Jude 20 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

That's a very arminian thought. In Calvinism, everything is predestined. You don't get to choose whether your faith grows or not.

“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,” Jude 20 (KJV 1900)

 

[renniks]

“But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,” Jude 20 (KJV 1900)

So you can choose faith after all? Make up your mind.

 

[Dave L]

So you can choose faith after all? Make up your mind.

No, you can exercise it and develop it. But it is of the Holy Spirit not the flesh.