Where Arminianism Fails.

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Dave L

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The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.
 
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Josheb

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The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.
More fundamentally, this makes God and His plan of salvation dependent on man. Even more fundamentally, the dependency is upon sinfully dead and enslaved humans. Still even more fundamentally, this makes God and His plan of salvation dependent upon the ability of the sinfully dead and enslaved human to turn himself from an unbeliever to a believer.

There is the attempt to veil these fundamental problems (problems both scripturally and logically) with the concept of prevenient grace, the idea God works in the individual's life just enough to free the volition sufficiently to make that chose while still a sinner, while still sinfully dead and enslaved and non-believing. Not only is there no mention of such a condition in scripture but it logically leads to the condition of an intermediate state in which the non-believer who was dead in sin but now liberated just enough to choose choosing not to believe in God and walking away partially changed, knowing God but refusing to believe. So where are the members of this intermediate group who know God but reject God? Those who have had their mind and will changed sufficiently to make the free will choice and chose to remain non-believers. Where are these liberated and enlightened non-believers?

Because I don't find them mentioned anywhere in the Bible, nor do I see them in the observance of everyday life.

These are places where Arminianism fails.




And I would like to add tangentially that I read an op that is now closed about Calvinism in which a lot of space was spent on the concept and doctrine of total depravity. Here's my comment: Everyone but the Pelagian is an adherent of total depravity! Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists all acknowledge humanity's inability to come to God on its own as a consequence of sin. That has been the uniform view of Christianity since the days Augustine and Pelagius argued the matter. Only the Pelagian views say something sufficient remained unaffected by sin. So all those who imagine themselves Arminian who deny what we now call total depravity... you're not Arminian.

"VII. In this state [the sinful state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing.' St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: 'Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.'" (from "Disputation 11"​

Arminius was a one-point Calvinist. So was Wesley.

How then does the unbeliever make himself into a believer before being saved?

S/He does not.
 
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The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.
I've been trying to get an Arminian to address the issue why one would choose to believe an another not choose to believe.
What is their decision based upon?
 
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Josheb

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Have you ever met a Calvinist who was a warm and loving guy?
Yes. Hundreds of them. I happen to be one of them. I meet with piles of them every Sunday in Sunday worship and throughout the week in small group meetings and service endeavors both inside the body and in the outside community in which we live.

So I reject the insinuated ad hominem and respectfully suggest a mirror is in order because the question just asked is not evidence of warmth and love. Luke 6:45
 
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More fundamentally, this makes God and His plan of salvation dependent on man. Even more fundamentally, the dependency is upon sinfully dead and enslaved humans. Still even more fundamentally, this makes God and His plan of salvation dependent upon the ability of the sinfully dead and enslaved human to turn himself from an unbeliever to a believer.

There is the attempt to veil these fundamental problems (problems both scripturally and logically) with the concept of prevenient grace, the idea God works in the individual's life just enough to free the volition sufficiently to make that chose while still a sinner, while still sinfully dead and enslaved and non-believing. Not only is there no mention of such a condition in scripture but it logically leads to the condition of an intermediate state in which the non-believer who was dead in sin but now liberated just enough to choose choosing not to believe in God and walking away partially changed, knowing God but refusing to believe. So where are the members of this intermediate group who know God but reject God? Those who have had their mind and will changed sufficiently to make the free will choice and chose to remain non-believers. Where are these liberated and enlightened non-believers?

Because I don't find them mentioned anywhere in the Bible, nor do I see them in the observance of everyday life.

These are places where Arminianism fails.




And I would like to add tangentially that I read an op that is now closed about Calvinism in which a lot of space was spent on the concept and doctrine of total depravity. Here's my comment: Everyone but the Pelagian is an adherent of total depravity! Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists all acknowledge humanity's inability to come to God their own as a consequence of sin. Only the Pelagian views say something sufficient remained unaffected by sin. So all those who imagine themselves Arminian who deny what we now call total depravity... you're not Arminian.

"VII. In this state [the sinful state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing.' St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: 'Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.'" (from "Disputation 11"​

Arminius was a one-point Calvinist. So was Wesley.

How then does the unbeliever make himself into a believer before being saved?

S/He does not.

Your reply bumped into prevenient grace....

Phil 1:6 says.... being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

As you said the Arminian concept that ...the idea God works in the individual's life just enough to free the volition sufficiently to make that chose while still a sinner.....has a problem because the good work God started, may stop when they choose not to accept Jesus.

The Arminian concept of prevenient grace seems to contradict scripture.
 
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Dave L

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I've been trying to get an Arminian to address the issue why one would choose to believe an another not choose to believe.
What is their decision based upon?
First, there is no decision that leads to salvation. Jesus says whoever believes has (already has) eternal life. Any decision follows (believing) in the form of repentance.

Others hear the same gospel as law. And think they must choose Christ as a legal act which God must honor with salvation. That is, unless they don't keep their end of the deal. These cannot discern the true Christ not being born again and choose an idol in his name.
 
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Josheb

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Your reply bumped into prevenient grace....

Phil 1:6 says.... being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

As you said the Arminian concept that ...the idea God works in the individual's life just enough to free the volition sufficiently to make that chose while still a sinner.....has a problem because the good work God started, may stop when they choose not to accept Jesus.

The Arminian concept of prevenient grace seems to contradict scripture.
1) Philippians 1:6 was written by a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. The "you" is Christians, not non-Christians. Yes, God works in all humans to do His will in their lives, but God does not work good in all and He is not perfecting all. This is especially true of those who deny His existence with futile, darkened, and foolish hostility.

2) God stopping doesn't undo the changes He's already made; it simply stops more changes from occurring. What we're left with is a changed-just-a-little-but-not-yet-saved unregenerate non-believer.


Another are where Arminianism fails, this own methodologically, not doctrinally, is the routine practice of taking passages from the Bible that were written by the already-regenerate to the already-regenerate about the already-regenerate and applying that content to the unregenerate. It is a serious flaw in sound exegesis.
 
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Dave L

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Another failure is that Arminianism denies God's love. It turns him into a bully who threatens victims of sin with eternal torture if they don't "say uncle" by choosing Jesus. And it also depicts him as bribing those who do so with eternal pleasure. Personally I think this was behind the "self esteem" crisis people faced for having sold their souls to this sort of god.
 
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rockytopva

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I spent my first year at college with the Freewill Baptist. Their communion services were accompanied with foot washing and you would leave such a place with a wonderful clean feeling. The people would also invite me to spend the day with their family and buy me dinner on occasion. After a year of that, along with teaching Sunday school, with my plans on moving out of state, they threw a going away party for me. Along with the party they presented me with a KJV Open Bible signed by all the members which I have kept to this good day.

It was decades later that I learned that they called themselves Arminian, and I had to study the argument to understand what that meant. My plans are to live out my life Arminian and to do what I can to avoid the evil of Calvinism. I have a web site promoting such teachings that is now at 2,173,226 views, https://www.youtube.com/user/rockytopva/about. In all the teachings of that site I have not the first reference to John Calvin.
 
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Dave L

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I spent my first year at college with the Freewill Baptist. Their communion services were accompanied with foot washing and you would leave such a place with a wonderful clean feeling. The people would also invite me to spend the day with their family and buy me dinner on occasion. After a year of that, along with teaching Sunday school, with my plans on moving out of state, they threw a going away party for me. Along with the party they presented me with a KJV Open Bible signed by all the members which I have kept to this good day.

It was decades later that I learned that they called themselves Arminian, and I had to study the argument to understand what that meant. My plans are to live out my life Arminian and to do what I can to avoid the evil of Calvinism. I have a web site promoting such teachings that is now at 2,173,226 views, https://www.youtube.com/user/rockytopva/about. In all the teachings of that site I have not the first reference to John Calvin.
But, are you working for the devil if Calvin was right about God?
 
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1) Philippians 1:6 was written by a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers. The "you" is Christians, not non-Christians. Yes, God works in all humans to do His will in their lives, but God does not work good in all and He is not perfecting all. This is especially true of those who deny His existence with futile, darkened, and foolish hostility.

2) God stopping doesn't undo the changes He's already made; it simply stops more changes from occurring. What we're left with is a changed-just-a-little-but-not-yet-saved unregenerate non-believer.


Another are where Arminianism fails, this own methodologically, not doctrinally, is the routine practice of taking passages from the Bible that were written by the already-regenerate to the already-regenerate about the already-regenerate and applying that content to the unregenerate. It is a serious flaw in sound exegesis.
True, in this instance it is already-regenerate speaking to the already-regenerate.
But, I would think prevenient grace...starts with the good work God is doing in an unbeliever and then is completed in the regenerated.

What I'm saying is that if God starts a good work in the unbeliever......He'll finish the good work. The Arminian would argue God doesn't always finish the good work.
 
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rockytopva

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Does the finished work the Calvinist talk about include killing people? After toasting Michael Servetus Calvin goes on to say... “Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

I have no historical records of Arminians uttering such statements!
 
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Dave L

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Does the finished work the Calvinist talk about include killing people? After toasting Michael Servetus Calvin goes on to say... “Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

I have no historical records of Arminians uttering such statements!
"For what particular act of mine you accuse me of cruelty I am anxious to know. I myself know not that act unless it be with reference to the death of your great master, Servetus. But that I myself earnestly entreated that he might not be put to death his judges themselves are witnesses, in the number of whom at that time two were his staunch favourers and defenders. But I have said quite enough about myself." Calvin's Calvinism Translated Henry Cole P-346
 
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Josheb

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True, in this instance it is already-regenerate speaking to the already-regenerate.
But, I would think prevenient grace...starts with the good work God is doing in an unbeliever and then is completed in the regenerated.
Yes, as I stated God works in all humans according to His purposes, but that is not that same as saying He works good in all nor that He is perfecting all.... which is what the Philippians text stipulates.

Yes, the doctrine of prevenient grace is about good work God is doing. No volitionalist (Arminian, Wesleyan, etc.) says God doesn't do work. prevenient grace is all about God's work, His grace, His gracious work. It's a completely inferential premise, which isn't in itself a problem because lots of doctrinal positions of the church are inferential. The problem arises when we follow the "logic" of prevenient grace to its logically necessary conclusions. In this case the problematic inevitability of partially-worked-in-but-still-unregenerate-God-knowing-non-believers.
What I'm saying is that if God starts a good work in the unbeliever......He'll finish the good work.
Not according to Arminianism.
The Arminian would argue God doesn't always finish the good work.
Yep. Supposedly, God not only made Himself dependent upon the sinfully dead slave but He also allowed them to walk away before He'd finished or born any fruit. The entire soteriology is built on the a premise God acts fruitlessly when it comes to salvation, and He does so after Calvary!

And these too are places where volitionalism/synergism fails in addition to what is cited in the op.
 
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rockytopva

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I spent my first year at college with the Freewill Baptist. Their communion services were accompanied with foot washing and you would leave such a place with a wonderful clean feeling. The people would also invite me to spend the day with their family and buy me dinner on occasion. After a year of that, along with teaching Sunday school, with my plans on moving out of state, they threw a going away party for me. Along with the party they presented me with a KJV Open Bible signed by all the members which I have kept to this good day.

It was decades later that I learned that they called themselves Arminian, and I had to study the argument to understand what that meant. My plans are to live out my life Arminian and to do what I can to avoid the evil of Calvinism. I have a web site promoting such teachings that is now at 2,173,226 views, https://www.youtube.com/user/rockytopva/about. In all the teachings of that site I have not the first reference to John Calvin.
Who knows anything about John Calvin or Jacob Arminius these days? When I was going to the Freewill Baptist church neither Calvin or Arminius was ever mentioned, and it was not until decades later until I figured it out, and it was only because I was curious and had to do independent study. I was brought up GARBC baptist and now am a member Pentecostal Holiness, and in all my years of living I have never heard John Calvin or Jacob Arminius mentioned in a sermon
 
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rockytopva

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See them everyday especially on Sundays.

M-Bob
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. - John 13:35
Any Christian congregation who is bible based has the opportunity to exhibit love, warmth, and friendship. In which case, it is a good thing to experience!
 
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Josheb

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Who knows anything about John Calvin or Jacob Arminius these days? When I was going to the Freewill Baptist church neither Calvin or Arminius was ever mentioned, and it was not until decades later until I figured it out, and it was only because I was curious and had to do independent study. I was brought up GARBC baptist and now am a member Pentecostal Holiness, and in all my years of living I have never heard John Calvin or Jacob Arminius mentioned in a sermon
Yes, it's a problem. I've been trading posts in discussion boards for ten years and the single greatest problem in discussion soteriology is how often folks get their own soteriology incorrect! Pelagians, Traditionalists, and Wesleyans incorrectly think they are Arminian, and determinists think themselves Calvinists. The second greatest error is the mis-defining of terms and the straw men that result. How often do people get the definitions of "total depravity," "irresistible grace," or "prevenient grace," etc. incorrect? Often! It should not be this way because these definitions and summary explanations are abundant and within a few mouse clicks.

This is why it is sometimes (often?) best to use the terms monergism and synergism, and not the labels affiliated with the respective authors.

I don't know why you'd expect to hear the names Calvin or Arminius mentioned. You undoubtedly have heard scripture and doctrine discussed/preached/taught within the frames of one of the big five, whether you knew that is what you were hearing or not. The debates between Augustine and Pelagius, and Luther and Erasmus were seminal. Furthermore, all Protestants are products of the Reformation so they all bear some influence of Reformation thought.

According to the Patheos website on Pentecostal Holiness, "Human nature, for Pentecostals, is defined by a belief in the 'fall,' such that all humans are viewed as captives to sin, dead because of sin, and cannot do anything to justify themselves before God." That makes them adherents of total depravity and squared away with the historical position of Christendom on the matter. No need to mention Calvin. Despite this belief in total depravity they were influenced by Wesley's methodism and therefore emphasize belief and personal experience but I doubt you'll hear Wesley's name in as a reference.
 
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