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Featured When is lying not sinful?

Discussion in 'Christian Advice' started by ByTheSpirit, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Right, like murder. In the OT, the Israelites are told not to murder (kill anyone they please), but yet, God tells them to kill His enemies. I believe that deception was a part of the art of war, to save life, or to accomplish a righteous purpose or plan. Lying or deception becomes wrong when it involves sin or to further a person's own selfish motivations or desires and or to fit in with a worldy culture or custom.


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  2. 4x4toy

    4x4toy Newbie Supporter

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    I had a dog once, she playfully knocked down kids all the time , broke her chains , jumped fences , tore up neighbors gardens, dragged her doghouse out in the road , just out of control .. I tried everything for weeks but she didn't get it and there's no way I'll ever let a dog take precedence over any person .
    I didn't want to put her in the pound because watching a dog get put to sleep wasn't the most pleasant thing I've seen .. So I took her out and shot her, still painful to this day 30 yrs later .. I told my youngest son (8yrs old at the time)who's dog it really was that she was such a good dog some one probably stole her and that some body got a great dog . To this day I've never told him I killed her ..
     
  3. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    the truth is that only the causation/infliction of evil to/on the neighbor(cohabitant) is a sin, either the spiritual or the physical one

    not all of them were considered to be sinless, for example, God didn't consider Jacob sinless when he fooled his brother, Esau, and his father, Isaac, but punished him to serve his mother's brother, laban, who was an idolater, two times seven years - seven years for having fooled his father, and seven more years for having fooled his brother, moreover, some of the prophets used the dishonesty of Jacob as a byword for the transgression of jews who had not been faithful to the true God (as in Micah 1:5); Esau lost his birthright just because he had not walked faithfully as a religious worshiper/spiritual servant since his adolescence, because his approach to the practice of faith had been quite esoteric (Genesis 25:27-28), and God had not been pleased with it...

    the worshiper must be aware of the righteousness of the true God so as to be able to understand what is a truth and what is a lie...

    Blessings
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    But Jesus did not fully reveal that He was God to all people. He made people to believe He was a mere man. But such a tactic was not intended to hurt or harm anyone but as a means to save everyone.

    In the battle of Ai, God told Joshua to deceive the enemies of Ai.

    God sent out spies into the promised land.

    God sent a lying spirit to Ahab.

    Yes, God does not lie, it is impossible for God Himself to lie, but that is in context to the breaking of the 9th commandment and not in view of deception as a part of the art of war, etc. Outright lying is wrong; But truth can be told from a different perspective without a person outright lying exactly.


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  5. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have recently changed my belief in regards to Rahab and the Hebrew mid wives in regards to lying. Please see my more recent posts.


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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    In some cases, not all, we can see that certain sins, like murder (taking life) depends on the intent and context of the situation.

    For example: If a person takes their own life, it is considered suicide, but if a person jumps in front of a bullet so as to save their son, they are a heroic father and an exalted family member.

    But we should be careful in not viewing God's commands in how it is stated when thinking about intent and context. We should not think outside of how God categorizes His laws (even in the Old Covenant that is no longer binding except God's eternal moral laws).


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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  8. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Samson...
     
  9. toLiJC

    toLiJC Senior Member

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    in principle the purpose of the system Administrator/Provider of life(God) is to provide the souls with abundant and eternal life - He doesn't benefit from causing evil to people - it is another question whether every person understands the difference between the true God and the evil one...

    Blessings
     
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I believe the Scriptures teach that Samson did not commit suicide. Unless of course you believe Samson's strength was his own. Was Samson's strength a gift from God? Did God have to grant his prayer? Could not have God destroyed the temple and protect Samson against Samson's wishes? you betcha. So God granting Samson the strength to destroy the temple was God's choice and power. Not Samson's choice. Samson could not destroy the temple on his own power. It was only by the power of God that Samson could do so. Samson still did not really know how God was going to react if he destroyed the temple. Samson did not have a vision or guarantee that he could kill himself. God does not condone people to commit sin. God took Samson's life by the power of God working in Samson. In order for Samson to commit suicide of his own power, he would have to have absolutely zero help from God in his desire to die. In other words, Samson could have found another way to kill himself and the Philistines. But he trusted and relied upon God instead to see if God was going to answer his prayer or not. And God. NOT Samson was the one who ultimately took Samson's life because God gave him the strength to destroy the Temple and also allow him to be die within it.

    What say ye?


    Side Note:

    Oh, and speaking of Samson:

    In 2 Corinthians 4:6-12 it mentions how the light of Christ lives in earthen vessels (us). What you may or may not know is that this a parallel of Gideon and his army of 300 who took clay jars with torches (i.e. light) inside them to surprise the enemy in winning the battle, but there is also another Old Testament parallel that the Lord showed me personally involving this New Testament passage, too.

    Just like there was 300 men in Gideon's army.
    Samson had 300 foxes.

    Samson took 300 foxes and tied their tails together and it caught the enemy's fields on fire. Scripture tells us we are to be as wise as serpents and and as innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16). Foxes are sly, crafty, or wise in the way they do things. This is a parallel. We are the foxes who are all tied to one another in Christ (i.e. one body) who are to deliver our bodies to be burned (1 Corinthians 13:3).

    So between the story of Gideon and Samson, we see a picture of how we are to broken as a clay vessel or burned like a wise fox for the sake of Christ. We are to shine forth his light and let it shine out the darkness which destoys the enemy.

    Also, if you like the character of Samson in the Bible, I would highly recommend checking out the song titled "Samson" by Lower Lights Burning", too. Really a great song (IMO).

    [​IMG]

    Samson - Lower Lights Burning.
    (Just hit the play button to listen to their song on their website if your interested).


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  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I have recently changed my position on Rahab, and the Hebrew mid wives. I believe Rahab lied (and would be considered a sin) the Hebrew Mid Wives simply did not lie and people are reading something into Exodus that is not there.

    As for deception during war time (with battle tactics only): At the the battle at Ai, the spies sent into the Promised Land, and God sending a lying spirit to Ahab?

    Granted, I am not saying God is lied. No, no. The Scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie. But I think we have to define the difference between deception during war time (when no words of lying are used) and the actual speaking of lies.

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    Last edited: Jul 14, 2017
  12. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    That indicates directly that what is sin sometimes "is not always wrong"

    based on "It all depends on why...." .....

    No, the question is not loaded, but exposes error IF present- thus the pursuit for clarification, and <<did you mean to say "can't sin if their intentions are pure" ? >>

    In either / all cases, it doesn't matter.
    That's the point -
    especially "intention", and often "context" does not make any difference -
    those are themselves not excuses acceptable to permit or to allow or to do sin. (lie, cheat, steal, kill, idolatry, adultery, serve demons, etc)
     
  13. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Suicide means killing oneself, not necessarily self-murder. Because of Samson, I believe in the following six categories of suicide:
    • Self-murder,
    • Self-sacrifice,
    • Erroneous self-sacrifice, and
    • Recklessness for the same three reasons.
    (I acknowledge that there may also be extenuating circumstances at play, too.)
     
  14. Haipule

    Haipule Well-Known Member

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    Didn't Paul say, "What is sin to one is not sin to another"? And, "Strong bear with the weak"? And for the weak not to "judge the servant of another"?
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, I do not see how Samson committed suicide if it was God who ANSWERED his prayer to give him the strength to take down the pillars. Also, Samson did not know what the outcome was going to be. God could have put an invisible force field of protection around Samson or made him invulnerable to crushing heavy stones like Superman. But God chose to allow Samson to die and grant his request of PRAYER.

    Now, if Samson ignored God and just did his own thing by taking down the pillars by some other human means to kill himself, then Samson would have been committing suicide by the fact that he was taking life outside of God's divine province or say so. God is the ultimate giver and taker of life. Samson was merely asking God that he could take his life and destroy his enemies in the process. God granting this request means Samson was no longer outside of God's direction or will. God agreed with Samson's request by giving him his strength back.

    Samson is a picture or type of Jesus Christ.

    Samson was sinful; Yet died righteously, and
    Jesus who was righteous, took on the sins of the entire world.

    Samson outstretched his arms to save his people and
    Jesus outstretched his arms to save his people.

    Samson, was blinded,
    Jesus was blinded by the fact that He was a figurative type of Adam in that His Omniscience (i.e. to have all knowledge) was suppressed.

    Samson's death help to free his people of an evil enemy.
    Jesus's death help to set his people free of an evil enemy (the devil).


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  16. Cassidy Bennett

    Cassidy Bennett Child of God

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    Every. Single. Person sins. The prophets were no different. God blesses us in spite of our sins.

    Even white lies can be considered wrong. However it's better to try to change your mindset verses just telling a fib to not hurt someone's feelings.

    The only exception would be if you were lying to keep someone safe say like hiding a Jew during the holocaust. In that case you don't have a choice it's either murder or lying and the most loving choice triumphs all. Also I believe God does similar things with us and picks the most loving option, though sometimes painful.
     
  17. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Samson asked for strength to kill the Philistines knowing full well that he would could die in the process. By granting such, God is shown to have been on board with that plan. In military terms, that is known as a suicide mission.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is in context to our liberty in Christ (away from the Old Law) in regards to eating and drinking and the keeping of Sabbath days.

    Read again Romans 14.


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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I do not think grace is a license to sin in any way.
    A believer has to repent of their sins or they are showing that they do not have a true Godly sorrow (instead of a worldly sorrow).


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  20. Apex

    Apex Radical Centrist & Ethicist

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    I don't think you see how your question was loaded. Let's break it down.

    My position is: Actions are ethically neutral. Intentions and context determine ethicality.

    Your original question: Could you show where God excuses some sin if the person has "good intention"?

    This question attempts to limit replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda. The unjustified assumption is that God excuses ACTUAL sin based on "good intentions".

    However, with my position, no ACTUAL sin occurs with "good intentions".
     
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