When is lying not sinful?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I was referring to "saving their life" (physically) not in the terms of salvation. I agree about a false doctrine/gospel or other information etc.

Right -
just noting the difference that "good intentions" can be evil all by themselves (even when telling the truth) , causing death and destruction,
thus "good intentions" is not a useful criteria for determining if anything is right or wrong, sinful or not sinful.

 

[Solomons Porch]

Right -
just noting the difference that "good intentions" can be evil all by themselves (even when telling the truth) , causing death and destruction,
thus "good intentions" is not a useful criteria for determining if anything is right or wrong, sinful or not sinful.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What does this mean ? 1 Corinthians 10:23

It helps A LOT (become clear) to read in context.

"14 Therefore, my dearly beloved, shun (keep clear away from, avoid by flight if need be) any sort of idolatry (of loving or venerating anything more than God).

15 I am speaking as to intelligent (sensible) men. Think over and make up your minds [for yourselves] about what I say. [I appeal to your reason and your discernment in these matters.]

16 The cup of blessing [of wine at the Lord’s Supper] upon which we ask [God’s] blessing, does it not mean [that in drinking it] we participate in and share a fellowship (a communion) in the blood of Christ (the Messiah)? The bread which we break, does it not mean [that in eating it] we participate in and share a fellowship (a communion) in the body of Christ?

17 For we [no matter how] numerous we are, are one body, because we all partake of the one Bread [the One Whom the communion bread represents].

18 Consider those [physically] people of Israel. Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners of the altar [united in their worship of the same God]?

19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is [intrinsically changed by the fact and amounts to] anything or that an idol itself is a [living] thing?

20 No, I am suggesting that what the pagans sacrifice they offer [in effect] to demons (to evil spiritual powers) and not to God [at all]. I do not want you to fellowship and be partners with diabolical spirits [by eating at their feasts].

21 You cannot drink the Lord’s cup and the demons’ cup. You cannot partake of the Lord’s table and the demons’ table.

22 Shall we thus provoke the Lord to jealousy and anger and indignation? Are we stronger than He [that we should defy Him]?

23 All things are legitimate [permissible—and we are free to do anything we please], but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].

24 Let no one then seek his own good and advantage and profit, but [rather] each one of the other [let him seek the welfare of his neighbor].

25 [As to meat offered to idols] eat anything that is sold in the meat market without raising any question or investigating on the grounds of conscientious scruples,

26 For the [whole] earth is the Lord’s and everything that is in it."

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

isn't there a difference between a tactical deception in war or in a time of conflict or something then lying?

What difference ?
(I think probably no, none of any concern or value.)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What does this mean ? 1 Corinthians 10:23

It is in context to eating these sacrificed to idols. So it is talking about our liberty in Christ from the Law of Moses and not all laws or commands.


...

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

When lying is not sinful?
When I say how young you look for your age.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What difference ?
(I think probably no, none of any concern or value.)

So you think that any deceit, falsehood, or misdirection regardless of intention is wrong and sinful then?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some people believe all lying is a sin, but I don't believe that. Lying is complex as to why/how we do it. If you lie for example to your spouse about looking at inappropriate content, then your in sin. If you lie to your spouse about having dinner after work and actually ist a surprise party for her birthday, its not a sinful lie.

But that is a worldly custom. Surely we should not lie as a part of the customs of the world.

What about when a parent dies? Do you not "exaggerate the truth" and say "Timmy mommys body is dead. All her ograns shut down after she got hit by a car and then she bled to death.". Of course not. You would sort of lie and say "Well mommy went to sleep and she is with Jesus now. We won't see mommy again until we are with Jesus too.". I mean of course you would expand on that more but its to some degree a half truth and half lie.

Jesus referred to death as sleep; Yet, we know Jesus did not lie because Scripture says it is impossible for God to lie. From God's point of view, death is like sleep to Him, so it is not a lie. So if we use God's terms with our children, this would not be lying (Because it is true for God). The truth would be a matter of perspective.


...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm glad to hear that.
I think we all do that much more than we realise. Is even a strategy to evangelise, recruit more followers of Christ. "give money to our Church and God will look after you".

@bettercallpaul,
The kind of deception you see,
and post about, here and other (that I have read) ,
is always sinful.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

What difference ?
(I think probably no, none of any concern or value.)

I mean for example in the Bible it's ok to kill in war, but outside of war no. Also in the book of Joshua some of their methods weren't honest in war

And also isn't deception more trickery based and a half truth

while a lie is like a complete lie?

if they are about the same nvm but always thought slight difference.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So you think that any deceit, falsehood, or misdirection regardless of intention is wrong and sinful then?

The main point escapes you - the main point is not is there any deceit, falsehood, misdirection or not.
The main point is that even so-called "good intentions" , have been exposed as not trustworthy for guidance nor for what is good nor what is right: People with "good intentions" are deceiving others all day long, every day, and claim they are doing God's Work all the while sending mulitudes to judgment unforgiven....

i.e. key word mis-used and mis-understood: intentions. (separate , apart, and different than the title / question / op)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions | WordReference Forums
WordReference Forums › English Only › English Only
Mar 17, 2006 - 27 posts - ‎20 authors
Good intentions are the work of the devil. Any attempt to change human nature is doomed. The only thing trying to change human nature is the ...

What does 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions' mean ...
www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.../what_does_the_road_to_hell_is.html
Jul 28, 2015 - Our 'good intentions' thus hide the real and cumulative outcomes of our ..... Many have abused his name, and the name of Jesus and done evil.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Let me give you an example:

33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
(John 10:33-34).

Here we see the Jews claiming that Jesus was committing blasphemy by Him claiming that He was God.
Yet, Jesus deflected a little and said, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?"
This was in reference to the fact that the Israelites were rulers.
But the point here is that Jesus was not denying their claims but yet he was deflecting them by giving them a truth that is true from a different perspective. Jesus said this because He was protecting His mission in going to the cross.


...

 

[4x4toy]

It helps A LOT (become clear) to read in context.

"14 Therefore, my dearly beloved, shun (keep clear away from, avoid by flight if need be) any sort of idolatry (of loving or venerating anything more than God).

15 I am speaking as to intelligent (sensible) men. Think over and make up your minds [for yourselves] about what I say. [I appeal to your reason and your discernment in these matters.]

16 The cup of blessing [of wine at the Lord’s Supper] upon which we ask [God’s] blessing, does it not mean [that in drinking it] we participate in and share a fellowship (a communion) in the blood of Christ (the Messiah)? The bread which we break, does it not mean [that in eating it] we participate in and share a fellowship (a communion) in the body of Christ?

17 For we [no matter how] numerous we are, are one body, because we all partake of the one Bread [the One Whom the communion bread represents].

18 Consider those [physically] people of Israel. Are not those who eat the sacrifices partners of the altar [united in their worship of the same God]?

19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is [intrinsically changed by the fact and amounts to] anything or that an idol itself is a [living] thing?

20 No, I am suggesting that what the pagans sacrifice they offer [in effect] to demons (to evil spiritual powers) and not to God [at all]. I do not want you to fellowship and be partners with diabolical spirits [by eating at their feasts].

21 You cannot drink the Lord’s cup and the demons’ cup. You cannot partake of the Lord’s table and the demons’ table.

22 Shall we thus provoke the Lord to jealousy and anger and indignation? Are we stronger than He [that we should defy Him]?

23 All things are legitimate [permissible—and we are free to do anything we please], but not all things are helpful (expedient, profitable, and wholesome). All things are legitimate, but not all things are constructive [to character] and edifying [to spiritual life].

24 Let no one then seek his own good and advantage and profit, but [rather] each one of the other [let him seek the welfare of his neighbor].

25 [As to meat offered to idols] eat anything that is sold in the meat market without raising any question or investigating on the grounds of conscientious scruples,

26 For the [whole] earth is the Lord’s and everything that is in it."

Kinda my point, Paul knew some meat was probably offered to idols . But when it was clear he abstained no question for consideration of others conscience (I think) so lying is never considered good even though keeping certain truth from causing unnecessary harm on unimportant matters to let lay . I don't know

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The main point escapes you - the main point is not is there any deceit, falsehood, misdirection or not.
The main point is that even so-called "good intentions" , have been exposed as not trustworthy for guidance nor for what is good nor what is right: People with "good intentions" are deceiving others all day long, every day, and claim they are doing God's Work all the while sending mulitudes to judgment unforgiven....

i.e. key word mis-used and mis-understood: intentions. (separate , apart, and different than the title / question / op)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions | WordReference Forums
WordReference Forums › English Only › English Only
Mar 17, 2006 - 27 posts - ‎20 authors
Good intentions are the work of the devil. Any attempt to change human nature is doomed. The only thing trying to change human nature is the ...

What does 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions' mean ...
www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.../what_does_the_road_to_hell_is.html
Jul 28, 2015 - Our 'good intentions' thus hide the real and cumulative outcomes of our ..... Many have abused his name, and the name of Jesus and done evil.

But God sent spies into Canaan; And God told Joshua to use a tactic of deception to deceive the enemy of Ai. So I would say there is a difference between deception used during war time so as to protect lives and just outright lying personally so as to defend one's own personal interests (or to cover another sin).

As for what Rahab did, and the Hebrew mid wives: I have recently changed my belief on this, and I now believe that Rahab lied (and it was wrong but later forgiveable through repentance) and the Hebrew Mid Wives simply did not lie. No text specifically says that.


...

 

[ByTheSpirit]

The main point escapes you - the main point is not is there any deceit, falsehood, misdirection or not.
The main point is that even so-called "good intentions" , have been exposed as not trustworthy for guidance nor for what is good nor what is right: People with "good intentions" are deceiving others all day long, every day, and claim they are doing God's Work all the while sending mulitudes to judgment unforgiven....

i.e. key word mis-used and mis-understood: intentions. (separate , apart, and different than the title / question / op)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions | WordReference Forums
WordReference Forums › English Only › English Only
Mar 17, 2006 - 27 posts - ‎20 authors
Good intentions are the work of the devil. Any attempt to change human nature is doomed. The only thing trying to change human nature is the ...

What does 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions' mean ...
www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.../what_does_the_road_to_hell_is.html
Jul 28, 2015 - Our 'good intentions' thus hide the real and cumulative outcomes of our ..... Many have abused his name, and the name of Jesus and done evil.

You are literally avoiding the question.

Let me ask you using the example I have brought up many times. Germans in WWII that hid Jews and then lied to the Nazis to save their lives, did their lie bring anger to God?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I mean for example in the Bible (1) it's ok to kill in war, but outside of war no.
And also (2)isn't deception more trickery based and a half truth
while a lie is like a complete lie?
if they are about the same nvm but always thought slight difference.

That (1) is completely different , I think, than the topic of this thread,
although it might be a parallel.....

and (2) is not really addressing the title or the op, although it may or may not clarify a point somewhere..

No worries - as the question of "intentions" also muddy the waters, so to speak - and is not the point or question of the title or the op either....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Kinda my point, Paul knew some meat was probably offered to idols . But when it was clear he abstained no question for consideration of others conscience (I think) so lying is never considered good even though keeping certain truth from causing unnecessary harm on unimportant matters to let lay . I don't know

Well said.


...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are literally avoiding the question.

Nah.
I am figuratively avoiding the unimportant question,
and (attempting) to address the more serious factor.

Just a sec, I'll answer the new question next...

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

That (1) is completely different , I think, than the topic of this thread,
although it might be a parallel.....

and (2) is not really addressing the title or the op, although it may or may not clarify a point somewhere..

No worries - as the question of "intentions" also muddy the waters, so to speak - and is not the point or question of the title or the op either....

If deception is the same as lying though wouldn't it make deception in war in the Bible topical? Also killing is a sin like lying so there is a parallel

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Germans in WWII that hid Jews and then lied to the Nazis to save their lives, did their lie bring anger to God?

Some did, and some did not.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Some did, and some did not.

ok thanks for answering