When is lying not sinful?

[ByTheSpirit]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek. Jacob with his brother Esau, several times. Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

What about making silly noises then blaming them on a friend or family member?

Or for a more serious matter, hiding someone to save their life? Or lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings?

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

 

[Tolworth John]

There is a difference between reporting and approving.
God does not teach that it is ok to lie, but he knows our weaknesses and works with them.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

There is a difference between reporting and approving.

Can you explain a bit for me? I can be slow at times

 

[Tolworth John]

Can you explain a bit for me? I can be slow at times

What is there in the bible that say God approved of the peeoples lies that you quoted.

If there is no verse saying that they did right in lying then all the bible is doing is reporting what they did.

In the case of abraham he gets rebuked by the man he lied to.

 

[Tree of Life]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek.

Isaac before Abimelek

Jacob with his brother Esau, several times

Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup.

David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

Hebrew narrative is coy. It doesn't usually make moral comments on the actions of the characters. It's up to you to use God's law to determine when they are acting sinfully and when they're acting admirably. Most of the time it's usually a very mixed bag. Most of the examples you've listed here are sinful deception. But deception is not sinful in every instance. Deception in warfare, for instance, can be acceptable.

 

[Haipule]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek.

Isaac before Abimelek

Jacob with his brother Esau, several times

Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup.

David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

And then there's Rahab the Harlot in James 2 who told a big fat lie. And God equated that as righteousness: the right thing to do.

If my wife asks me, "Does this make my butt look big?" I may have to lie!

Then there are undercover cops infiltrating gangs. If they are asked, "Are you a cop?" It would certainly be OK to lie.

I think there is a difference between lying and deception when that deception causes harm to self or others.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

What is there in the bible that say God approved of the peeoples lies that you quoted.

If there is no verse saying that they did right in lying then all the bible is doing is reporting what they did.

In the case of abraham he gets rebuked by the man he lied to.

Well it was God that cursed the man for believing Abraham's lie which is why he rebuked Abraham. So Abraham lies-God curses Pharaoh-Pharoah rebukes Abraham, but still God went along with Abraham it seems.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

And then there's Rahab the Harlot in James 2 who told a big fat lie. And God equated that as righteousness: the right thing to do.

If my wife asks me, "Does this make my butt look big?" I may have to lie!

Then there are undercover cops infiltrating gangs. If they are asked, "Are you a cop?" It would certainly be OK to lie.

I think there is a difference between lying and deception when that deception causes harm to self or others.

Very good, I was thinking along these lines as well. That it is more the intent at play than the action.

For instance, many stories exist of German families hiding Jews during the Holocaust. Such Germans would tell the Nazis that they had no Jews when in fact they did. It was a lie to say they had no Jews, but I am sure God did not hold that against them for lying. They were trying to save life.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Hebrew narrative is coy. It doesn't usually make moral comments on the actions of the characters. It's up to you to use God's law to determine when they are acting sinfully and when they're acting admirably. Most of the time it's usually a very mixed bag. Most of the examples you've listed here are sinful deception. But deception is not sinful in every instance. Deception in warfare, for instance, can be acceptable.

So perhaps if I lie to save life that is ok, but to lie to avoid guilt or be treacherous is wrong?

What about this, might be a bit off topic but still. If I lie in jest, like make a silly noise and then blame it on someone else. That is an "untruth" so is that sinful?

 

[Tree of Life]

So perhaps if I lie to save life that is ok, but to lie to avoid guilt or be treacherous is wrong?

To deceive an enemy in order for righteousness to prevail does not seem to be immoral in Scripture.

What about this, might be a bit off topic but still. If I lie in jest, like make a silly noise and then blame it on someone else. That is an "untruth" so is that sinful?

I wouldn't call foul.

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God?

I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it.

Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek.

Isaac before Abimelek

Jacob with his brother Esau, several times

Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup.

David acting mentally ill in front of Achish

So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok?

IOW, when is a lie not sin?

Lying isn’t sinful when it’s meant to save others from harm. For example, let’s say you see someone with a red t-shirt running past you, then takes a left. Minutes later, you are approached by a group of thugs, all of whom look dangerous and ready to hurt someone, who ask if you saw a man with a red t-shirt. If you lie and tell the thugs he went running to the right, you saved someone from serious harm and didn't sin by lying.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Lying isn’t sinful when it’s meant to save other from harm. For example, let’s say you see someone with a red t-shirt running past you, then takes a left. Minutes later, you are approached by a group of thugs, all of whom look dangerous and ready to hurt someone, who ask if you saw a man with a red t-shirt. If you lie and tell the thugs he went running to the right, you saved someone from serious harm and didn't sin by lying.

So it is more about the intent then rather than the action?

 

[Jim Langston]

Just because the bible says some people did some things does not mean it was right for them to do it. Such as Abraham saying Sarah was his sister. The bible reports it but that doesn't mean it was right for Abraham to do it. Balaam put a stumbling block in fron of Isreal, he was not right to do it.

I see the bible, especially with the Israelites, not so much showing the correct thing to do, but what happens when you screw up. Only the actions of God and Jesus do I take to be perfect in the bible. Some are closer than others, such as the prophets, but no one is perfect other than God.

That being said, I find the story of Exodus slightly uncomforting because God the father told Moses to tell the Pharoh a half truth, that they were going into the wilderness to sacrifice. While this is true, they had no intention of coming back, even though everyone knew that.

So, then, I think the better question is, when is deception allowed? Is deception itself a sin, or is it just a tool and the use dictates sin or not?

Logically I can justify my deception, I answered the question you asked. Is it my responsibility to make sure you understand the thing I said? I think, however, it has to come down to the measuring stick of sin, is it hurting anyone or helping?

Moses answer of going into the wilderness to sacrifice has the advantage that maybe Pharaoh will let them go (God hardening pharaoh's heart? This is already hard enough without that thrown in.) and not kill them any more. I am not certain, all I can go by is "love your neighbor as yourself".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is there ever a time that being dishonest is actually ok to God? I ask because a few times in scripture we see very godly men being deceitful and it not being recorded as wrong. In fact a couple times God seems to bless them in spite of it. Abraham when he went before Pharoah and Abimelek. Isaac before Abimelek Jacob with his brother Esau, several times Joseph when he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, gave them back their silver and said he hadn't, then set up Benjamin with the Silver Cup. David acting mentally ill in front of Achish So is there ever a time that being dishonest is ok? IOW, when is a lie not sin?

One common mistake repeated here is equating "dishonest" with "lie".

All those men of YHWH were declared faithful "honest" men by YHWH, TORAH, and ekklesia.
Telling a lie did not make them "dishonest".

Jesus told His disciples He was not going, then went, at least once.

There's no commandment saying "never lie".

Jesus and the men of YHWH said what YHWH had them say,
or what YHWH allowed them to say as needed, or as permitted.

Jesus NEVER BROKE TORAH, ever.

The other men mentioned obeyed the TORAH, but may have broken it .....

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

So it is more about the intent then rather than the action?

When lying is done for personal gain (such as fraud), it is very sinful. So yes, intention is everything. If you lie with the intent to save someone's life like in my example, it is by no means sinful.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So it is more about the intent then rather than the action?

No,
a lot of religious leaders have "good intentions" potentially for a multitude of things they do, that they truly believe are not just okay to do, but they actually believe in complete error that they are doing what is right in God's eyes, (including killing true believers, thinking they are doing God a favor!!!!)
but they are abominations to God and disobey His Word every day, willingly, wittingly, and willfully.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you lie with the intent to save someone's life like in my example, it is by no means sinful.

As noted above, without details unless YHWH permits,
a lot of religious leaders lie every day to parishioners as if to save them or something 'good' for them,
but instead in so doing are condemning them, keeping them forever from finding God's Kingdom -
yet they have what everyone calls "good intentions"....

 

[Angel Wings 1288]

As noted above, without details unless YHWH permits,
a lot of religious leaders lie every day to parishioners as if to save them or something 'good' for them,
but instead in so doing are condemning them, keeping them forever from finding God's Kingdom -
yet they have what everyone calls "good intentions"....

Can you give specific examples of that? If you could please do so, it would help with my response to you.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Just because the bible says some people did some things does not mean it was right for them to do it. Such as Abraham saying Sarah was his sister. The bible reports it but that doesn't mean it was right for Abraham to do it. Balaam put a stumbling block in fron of Isreal, he was not right to do it.

I see the bible, especially with the Israelites, not so much showing the correct thing to do, but what happens when you screw up. Only the actions of God and Jesus do I take to be perfect in the bible. Some are closer than others, such as the prophets, but no one is perfect other than God.

That being said, I find the story of Exodus slightly uncomforting because God the father told Moses to tell the Pharoh a half truth, that they were going into the wilderness to sacrifice. While this is true, they had no intention of coming back, even though everyone knew that.

So, then, I think the better question is, when is deception allowed? Is deception itself a sin, or is it just a tool and the use dictates sin or not?

Logically I can justify my deception, I answered the question you asked. Is it my responsibility to make sure you understand the thing I said? I think, however, it has to come down to the measuring stick of sin, is it hurting anyone or helping?

Moses answer of going into the wilderness to sacrifice has the advantage that maybe Pharaoh will let them go (God hardening pharaoh's heart? This is already hard enough without that thrown in.) and not kill them any more. I am not certain, all I can go by is "love your neighbor as yourself".

Some good points raised here. I personally am trending towards it is the intent that is measured as sinful rather than the action itself.

As for why Moses reported the Israelites as wanting to only worship for a few days in the wilderness, perhaps it was just a way to gauge Pharoah's willingness to let his slave force go? I don't know.

As for Abraham's actions not being ok, it just seems from the text that God still blessed Abraham even with his deception, because God sent a curse upon Pharoah as long as Sarai was in his house. It is possible God didn't approve but it just doesn't come across that way. Again maybe it was Abraham's intent.

We know Abraham was a man that cherished life and was not inherently deceitful, so maybe him doing to preserve his own life is why? He did after all say only a half truth (Sarai was his half sister) so the Pharoah wouldn't slay him.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

As noted above, without details unless YHWH permits,
a lot of religious leaders lie every day to parishioners as if to save them or something 'good' for them,
but instead in so doing are condemning them, keeping them forever from finding God's Kingdom -
yet they have what everyone calls "good intentions"....

So when does Yahweh permit such things then?