When is lying not sinful?

[Bible Highlighter]

Samson asked for strength to kill the Philistines knowing full well that he would die in the process. By granting such, God is shown to have been on board with that plan. In military terms, that is known as a suicide mission.

Well, suicide bombers did not receive permission from God to be suicide bombers. A person only commits suicide or self murder when they are outside of God's divine will. If God agrees to a request for a person to die, then it is no longer murder, but God granting them death. Remember, God did not have to entirely grant all of Samson's request. God can easily make Samson to survive such a destruction and even give his eye sight back so that he could do more work.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think you see how your question was loaded. Let's break it down.

My position is: Actions are ethically neutral. Intentions and context determine ethicality.

Your original question: Could you show where God excuses some sin if the person has "good intention"?

This question attempts to limit replies to be those that serve the questioner's agenda. The unjustified assumption is that God excuses ACTUAL sin based on "good intentions".

However, with my position, no ACTUAL sin occurs with "good intentions".

I do not think this is always the case. For one it is always wrong to try and contact the dead for any reason. It is always wrong in every case to abuse or hurt children. It is always wrong to view porn or to join a wild sex party. It is always wrong to hate your brother. It is always wrong to make graven statues and to bow down to them. It is always wrong to get plastered drunk with wine; Especially if one is driving a car with their family in the vehicle, etc.


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[Sabertooth]

A person only commits suicide or self murder when they are outside of God's divine will.

Self-murder, yes. Taking a bullet or diving on a grenade are still suicide, but they are not self-murder. And such is very much a part of the art of war that you keep referencing.

Samson is a prototype for suicide bombing, but, at least, he was listening to the right God (consistent with the OT setting). I'm sure this was of no comfort to the Philistines (and their laws).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Self-murder, yes. Taking a bullet or diving on a grenade are still suicide, but they are not self-murder. And such is very much a part of the art of war that you keep referencing.

Samson is a prototype for suicide bombing, but, at least, he was listening to the right God (consistent with the OT setting). I'm sure this was of no comfort to the Philistines (and their laws).

I disagree, because Samson was not given a vision of the certainty of his mission. He did not know 100% certainty what was going to happen when the pillars came down. God could have made the pillars to crush everyone but they could have fallen in such a way to not crush Samson. Samson asked but he was not told of the outcome. God did not have Samson look into a crystal ball to see the future nor did he see a Godly vision of his own death.


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[Cassidy Bennett]

I do not think grace is a license to sin in any way.
A believer has to repent of their sins or they are showing that they do not have a true Godly sorrow (instead of a worldly sorrow).


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I'm saying love triumphs all so if your "choices" are murder or lying then lying is not a sin because both of your options were sins at that point. That would not be a just situation for you and would not require repentance. There must be a choice involved for you to truly be guilty. You picked the least of the 2 evils because love at that point was lying, not allowing murder.

When I say love triumphs all I mean....murder is actually taking a soul, a little god, God's image, God's Idol, God's temple, etc. and destroying it. Lying (though not correct) is your only other option than murder and is thereby the lesser evil. A just king would not hold you accountable for that and does not require repentance. If anything you are being like Jesus because you could die for another in the case of saving a hiding Jew during the holocaust.

 

[Sabertooth]

I do not think this is always the case.

I see such latitude in the three following categories:

• Lying/deception,
• Stealing/sabotage, and
  
• Assault/homicide/suicide

particularly as weapons where justified. I don't see a justifiable basis for any other behaviors that God would count as sin.

 

[Apex]

I do not think this is always the case. For one it is always wrong to try and contact the dead for any reason. It is always wrong in every case to abuse or hurt children. It is always wrong to view porn or to join a wild sex party. It is always wrong to hate your brother. It is always wrong to make graven statues and to bow down to them. It is always wrong to get plastered drunk with wine; Especially if one is driving a car with their family in the vehicle, etc.


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All those examples are contextual. For example, I would agree that abuse is a sin, but abuse is the result of the action. The action is hitting the child. Many parents hit (spank) their children. The difference between discipline and abuse is both intention and context. Another example you used is getting drunk. Getting drunk is the result of drinking (the action). Drinking is not a sin, but depending on your intentions and the context (excessive consumption), it becomes a sin.

 

[Sabertooth]

...knowing full well that he would die in the process.

(correction)...knowing full well that he could die in the process.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had no such promise, either.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm saying love triumphs all so if your "choices" are murder or lying then lying is not a sin because both of your options were sins at that point. That would not be a just situation for you and would not require repentance. There must be a choice involved for you to truly be guilty. You picked the least of the 2 evils because love at that point was lying, not allowing murder.

You lost me.

When I say love triumphs all I mean....murder is actually taking a soul, a little god, God's image, God's Idol, God's temple, etc. and destroying it. Lying (though not correct) is your only other option than murder and is thereby the lesser evil. A just king would not hold you accountable for that and does not require repentance. If anything you are being like Jesus because you could die for another in the case of saving a hiding Jew during the holocaust.

All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
Ananais and Sapphira were killed for lying to the Holy Ghost.
So you must be reading a different Bible than me.


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[xpower]

(correction)...knowing full well that he could die in the process.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego had no such promise, either.

Ok,I have to ask. What is that in your picture?(not related to this thread)

 

[Cassidy Bennett]

You lost me.



All liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).
Ananais and Sapphira were killed for lying to the Holy Ghost.
So you must be reading a different Bible then me.


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Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Again, if you were to lie to save a life you are not sinning if you had only those choices. You are not guilty then and obeying God's law.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Let's break it down.

(1)

My position is: Actions are ethically neutral.

False according to Scripture.

(2)

Intentions and context determine ethicality.

False according to Scripture.

(3)

However, with my position, no ACTUAL sin occurs with "good intentions".

False according to Scripture.

(4)

Your original question: Could you show where God excuses some sin if the person has "good intention"?

You cannot show anywhere that no ACTUAL sin occurs with "good intentions"
according to Scripture, thus again, false.
i.e. when someone sins, "good intentions" won't excuse their sin.
Even with "good intentions" , they sin.

These were the quick finds/ fast search (not verified) :
for example for those who were not aware before, to start finding out. (they might not be available; if not we can find more) >>
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | WordReference Forums
WordReference Forums › English Only › English Only
Mar 17, 2006 - 27 posts - ‎20 authors
Good intentions are the work of the devil. Any attempt to change human nature is doomed. The only thing trying to change human nature is the ...

What does 'the road to Hell is paved with good intentions' mean ...
www.mlive.com/opinion/grand-rapids/index.../what_does_the_road_to_hell_is.html
Jul 28, 2015 - Our 'good intentions' thus hide the real and cumulative outcomes of our ..... Many have abused his name, and the name of Jesus and done evil.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All those examples are contextual. For example, I would agree that abuse is a sin, but abuse is the result of the action. The action is hitting the child. Many parents hit (spank) their children.

When I talk about abuse of children I am talking about how they have physical bruises and marks on them from being beaten. That would be child abuse, or if they were sexually abused, etc. So no; This is always evil.

Another example you used is getting drunk. Getting drunk is the result of drinking (the action). Drinking is not a sin, but depending on your intentions and the context (excessive consumption), it becomes a sin.

I said it is always a sin to get drunk. That is what I was talking about. Not drinking itself socially.
It is always wrong to get smash drunk. There is no it is no context of a change of situation where it is okay to getting drunk with strong drink.


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[4x4toy]

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Again, if you were to lie to save a life you are not sinning if you had only those choices. You are not guilty then and obeying God's law.

Agree and the Pharasees constantly used the law to nullify the intent of God's Word didn't they ?

 

[Haipule]

I do not think grace is a license to sin in any way.
A believer has to repent of their sins or they are showing that they do not have a true Godly sorrow (instead of a worldly sorrow).


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In spite of "Holy Tradition" and centuries of usage and commentary: how is "grace" a good translation for charis which means: beauty implying favor? How is "sin" a good translation of hamartia which means: wayward, off course, errant? How is "believer" a good translation of pisteuOn which means: One who keeps on trusting? How is "repent" a good translation of metanoia which means: like-minded?

How did the translators take a prober noun for God; theon--the accusative of theos, and turn it into the adjective "godly"?

For some unknown reason they decided that kata, “down from authority”, and a proper noun for God, “theon”, should be turned into an adjective! kata theon is not “godly” as in “godly sorrow” but, sorrow, or grief, which is “down-from” God’s authority; in the administration of His Divine justice; in the form of Divine discipline; for those who think they can violate the principles of His Divine justice, and that from thee God who says, “I WILL NOT BE MOCKED!” The NASB translates it as, “sorrow according to the will of God” but, it is not God’s will for you to suffer sorrow nor is it; “as He allows”, as some say; rather, it is God’s Divine justice in action, working down from His authority!

I'm being objective, and informative NOT WORDFIGHT!

 

[Apex]

When I talk about abuse of children I am talking about how they have physical bruises and marks on them from being beaten. That would be child abuse, or if they were sexually abused, etc. So no; This is always evil. But nice try in trying to justify evil.

Do you really think I am trying to justify evil?

I'll give you a real life example, my wife fractured our young daughter's leg. Did my wife sin? Answer immediately - yes or no.

You can't! To answer properly you need to know what happened. My wife had no intentions of hurting our daughter. The context was my wife tripped and accidentally fell down the stairs while holding our daughter in her arms. Thankfully, it wasn't as bad as it sounds, but my daughter had a cast on her leg for a few months.

I said it is always a sin to get drunk. That is what I was talking about. Not drinking itself socially.
It is always wrong to get smash drunk. There is no it is no context of a change of situation where it is okay to getting drunk with strong drink.


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Being "drunk" is not an action. It is the result of an action.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 22:37-40
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Again, if you were to lie to save a life you are not sinning if you had only those choices. You are not guilty then and obeying God's law.

But people have funny ideas of loving God and their neighbor. That is why God provided more detailed commands in the New Testament and warnings so they would not try and change or redefine in how to love God and their neighbor.

I have been doing some more reading on this issue and it appears that Rahab is not praised in James 2:25 for lying. She is praised for leading the two men of God down a different road of safety.

Contradictions: A Righteous Lie?

And in Exodus, it does not specifically say the Hebrew mid wives lied to protect the lives of any babies, either.

A Righteous Lie?


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[Apex]

I said it is always a sin to get drunk. That is what I was talking about. Not drinking itself socially.
It is always wrong to get smash drunk. There is no it is no context of a change of situation where it is okay to getting drunk with strong drink.
...

I just thought of a real life example that I saw happen a few years ago. I was at a family reunion and they had two margarita machines - one with alcohol, the other was virgin. One of my younger relatives (who had never drank alcohol or even virgin margaritas before) thought they had been drinking from the virgin machine. Before they knew it, they were drunk. They got very very sick and threw up everywhere.

Did they sin? You would say yes. I would say no. They did not intend to get drunk. It was an accident. One they will never make again!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you really think I am trying to justify evil?

I'll give you a real life example, my wife fractured our young daughter's leg. Did my wife sin? Answer immediately - yes or no.

You can't! To answer properly you need to know what happened. My wife had no intentions of hurting our daughter. The context was my wife tripped and accidentally fell down the stairs while holding our daughter in her arms. Thankfully, it wasn't as bad as it sounds, but my daughter had a cast on her leg for a few months.

That was an accident and it was not done intentionally. There is a difference.

Being "drunk" is not an action. It is the result of an action.

Okay, call it excessive drinking. Does not change the fact that it is still always sinful.


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[Cassidy Bennett]

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