When is lying not sinful?

Sabertooth

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@ByTheSpirit : God, Himself, never lies. Besides your examples, I see three more,
There was even a [board?] meeting where one of God's angels[?] suggests that they would lie to Ahab so he would walk into a trap and die. And God said, "Great idea. Go do that!"

Given the above, I believe that the command "Thou shall not bear false witness" applies to perjury (in court) and in business between non-combatants. Deception is a weapon and is appropriate where the use of weapons may be appropriate. (But that should be the exception rather than the rule.)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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So you think that any deceit, falsehood, or misdirection regardless of intention is wrong and sinful then?
There is a lot of deceit, falsehood, and misdirection EVERY DAY,
that is wrong and sinful EVERY DAY, all the time..

There may be (it is possible) some actions/ words of / deceit, falsehood and misdirection ANY DAY,
that is not wrong and not sinful.
 
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ByTheSpirit

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@ByTheSpirit : God, Himself, never lies. Besides your examples, I see three more,
There was even a [board?] meeting where one of God's angels[?] suggests that they would lie to Ahab so he would walk into a trap and die. And God said, "Great idea. Go do that!"

Given the above, I believe that the command "Thou shall not bear false witness" applies to perjury (in court) and in business between non-combatants. Deception is a weapon and is appropriate where the use of weapons may be appropriate. (But that should be the exception rather than the rule.)

Very good response thank you!
 
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ByTheSpirit

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There is a lot of deceit, falsehood, and misdirection EVERY DAY,
that is wrong and sinful EVERY DAY, all the time..

There may be (it is possible) some actions/ words of / deceit, falsehood and misdirection ANY DAY,
that is not wrong and not sinful.

I agree with you and I was only trying to get a bread and water answer from you. I am simple minded fellow and many deep responses leave me confused and wandering in the wilderness of mentality.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There was even a [board?] meeting where one of God's angels[?] suggests that they would lie to Ahab so he would walk into a trap and die. And God said, "Great idea. Go do that!"
Look into this and see if it was one of the Righteous angels
or one of the devil's angels
that God gave authority to go lie to Ahab.
Someone in a completely different site suggested or showed that
YHWH may have used the devil's angels for
what purpose YHWH had to use them for
totally under YHWH'S decision/ authority/ governing
without at all
lessening/ diminishing/ spotting or wrinkling YHWH'S PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS.... :)
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I agree with you and I was only trying to get a bread and water answer from you. I am simple minded fellow and many deep responses leave me confused and wandering in the wilderness of mentality.
We are living and posting in a confusing wilderness of society/ internet use,
and many people seem not to be aware that
we are not in a "safe haven" as if free from error at all,
nor as if free from sin and deception at all.... the 'safeguards' in place throughout the internet do not work
to create a safe house/place, nor to provide a place free of sin.

Thus, do not trust anything posted on the internet, without testing/proving it true by God's Word and Spirit, in prayer always.
Yes, this includes everything posted, even what I post.

Shalom to all who seek TRUTH IN JESUS !
 
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Apex

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Did Jesus ever lie? I want to have the wisdom that Jesus had to be discrete and know how to answer every man truthfully without being entrapped.

That is the wrong question. The correct one is: Did Jesus ever sin?

Others have correctly noted that intention and context are key ingredients here. Actions, in and of themselves, do not have some kind of innate ethical property. For example, killing is not always wrong. It all depends on why the killing happened (war, self-defense, capital punishment, murder, etc.). Same with lying.
 
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I think we should primarily stick to the study of deception as used in the New Testament, seeing that it is the New Testament that supercedes the Old Testament. Granted, this does not mean certain laws or truths do not apply from the Old still. Laws like forbidding in contacting the dead, and sleeping with next of kin, etc. are laws that would still naturally apply under the New Covenant, too.

Anyways, the best example to look to is Jesus during His earthly ministry.
He was the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity in the flesh of a man and yet He did not openly make this fact 100% known to all people. Jesus could have used the full weight of His power as God to make it unmistakable to all in who He was. But He did not do that.

For many times, He came off as a humble, simple, but yet a special man of God instead.
Yes, sometimes He let certain folks know that He was the Messiah, but this was not evident to all.


...
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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If deception is the same as lying though wouldn't it make deception in war in the Bible topical? Also killing is a sin like lying so there is a parallel
Deception is not the same as lying,
and
yes killing might provide a parallel, but killing is a different sin than lying, so there may be some differences also.

The penalty for killing anyone, without government authority to do so,
was death, even if it was in self defense (unless shown to be by accident and the death was not on purpose) .

The penalty for lying, I don't remember, but likely was not usually death ....
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Others have correctly noted that intention and context are key ingredients here.
Perhaps "incorrectly" as regards intention.

Or could you show where God excuses some sin if the person has "good intention" ? Anywhere in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS, NEW TESTAMENT , etc (anywhere in SCRIPTURE)
 
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ByTheSpirit

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I think we should primarily stick to the study of deception as used in the New Testament, seeing that it is the New Testament that supercedes the Old Testament. Granted, this does not mean certain laws or truths do not apply from the Old still. Laws like forbidding in contacting the dead, and sleeping with next of kin, etc. are laws that would still naturally apply under the New Covenant, too.

Anyways, the best example to look to is Jesus during His earthly ministry.
He was the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity in the flesh of a man and yet He did not openly make this fact 100% known to all people. Jesus could have used the full weight of His power as God to make it unmistakable to all in who He was. But He did not do that.


...

Good point to bring up.

So Jesus in the gospel of John, chapter 7, is recorded as having a conversation with his brothers where they ask him to go to a festival in Jerusalem yet Jesus tells them he is not going. Eventually though he does go and it actually says he went sort of behind the scenes.

So if Jesus never sinned (and he didn't), how do we reconcile his words with what happened? He clearly told his brothers he wasn't going then not only did he go but he publically preached.
 
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Apex

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Perhaps "incorrectly" as regards intention.

Or could you show where God excuses some sin if the person has "good intention" ? Anywhere in TORAH, PROPHETS, PSALMS, NEW TESTAMENT , etc (anywhere in SCRIPTURE)

I never said someone can sin if their intentions are pure. Your question is loaded.
 
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4x4toy

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Deception is not the same as lying,
and
yes killing might provide a parallel, but killing is a different sin than lying, so there may be some differences also.

The penalty for killing anyone, without government authority to do so,
was death, even if it was in self defense (unless shown to be by accident and the death was not on purpose) .

The penalty for lying, I don't remember, but likely was not usually death ....

Good, then some deception is OK if it serves a higher purpose
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Good, then some deception is OK if it serves a higher purpose
No.
Again a mixing of ... well, nothing done to serve "a higher purpose"
is okay.
It is always sinful. (like new age, yoga, muslim, etc ..... ) .

Deception was "ok" a few places in Scripture, as YHWH'S Word shows,
but not as if
a 'formula' for when someone can choose to do it or choose not to do it.
Just like the offering of sacrifices, the people were not permitted to decide for themselves when or how to do it,
except as YHWH clearly taught them.

When they did it their own way, or for any other reason, they were punished (like the 2 who touched the ARK , and Saul when he did not wait for the prophet)....
their motives / intentions did not matter at all in those instances (although it might have been stated they had bad motives, so in that sense.... perhaps) .
 
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Sabertooth

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I think we should primarily stick to the study of deception as used in the New Testament,...
New Testament lying in an unjustified context turned out to be a bad idea. Right, Ananias & Sapphira...? (Keeping the money was okay. Lying to the Holy Spirit? Bad idea.)
 
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Good point to bring up.

Thank you.
You said:
So Jesus in the gospel of John, chapter 7, is recorded as having a conversation with his brothers where they ask him to go to a festival in Jerusalem yet Jesus tells them he is not going. Eventually though he does go and it actually says he went sort of behind the scenes.

So if Jesus never sinned (and he didn't), how do we reconcile his words with what happened? He clearly told his brothers he wasn't going then not only did he go but he publically preached.

Rather than reinvent the wheel on somebody else's words, here is a good article on this one:

Did Jesus Lie?


...
 
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ByTheSpirit

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New Testament lying in an unjustified context turned out to be a bad idea. Right, Ananias & Sapphira...? (Keeping the money was okay. Lying to the Holy Spirit? Bad idea.)

Very true. They could have kept the money with no harm or foul to themselves, the issue was their lie was meant to bring honor to themselves by pretending to give all they had received.
 
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New Testament lying in an unjustified context turned out to be a bad idea. Right, Ananias & Sapphira...? (Keeping the money was okay. Lying to the Holy Spirit? Bad idea.)

Sigh. I am not saying that one can out right lie to cover a sin. In fact, I just brought up Ananais and Sapphira just recently and also Revelation 21:8. I am talking about Jesus and how He spoke from different perspectives that were true so as to sometimes make people think the wrong thing. Jesus did not lie, He simply had a secret mission to accomplish and so He used words that were true from a certain perspective but yet He knew that these words would mislead certain individuals so that He could go to the cross and save mankind from His sins.

Jesus did not openly show His full glory as God to people.
He humbled himself as a man and became obedient unto death so as to be our substitute.
Jesus told His disciples not to tell others who He was.
Jesus told others not to spread news of His miracles.
Jesus was appearing to hide a particular truth.
In one respect you can say this was kind of deceptive (but not an outright lie) because He was hiding a particular truth in who He was. Yet, Jesus also claimed to be God at other times in ways that He knows that it would not disrupt His mission.


...
 
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Sabertooth

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Sigh. I am not saying that one can out right lie to cover a sin.
I have been in agreement that lying/deception has a contextual aspect to it.
 
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Deception is not the same as lying,
and
yes killing might provide a parallel, but killing is a different sin than lying, so there may be some differences also.

The penalty for killing anyone, without government authority to do so,
was death, even if it was in self defense (unless shown to be by accident and the death was not on purpose) .

The penalty for lying, I don't remember, but likely was not usually death ....
That was my question like if deception was the same or not cause if it was then yeah.

and i'm aware of the 6 refuge cities they had in the bible for manslaughter and such in the OT. Was just making a point that it would be wrong to argue that something is absolute, there is leg room in the bible for certain things.
 
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