When is lying not sinful?

[Bible Highlighter]

I just thought of a real life example that I saw happen a few years ago. I was at a family reunion and they had two margarita machines - one with alcohol, the other was virgin. One of my younger relatives (who had never drank alcohol or even virgin margaritas before) thought they had been drinking from the virgin machine. Before they knew it, they were drunk. They got very very sick and threw up everywhere.

Did they sin? You would say yes. I would say no. They did not intend to get drunk. It was an accident. One they will never make again!

One has to intentionally know they are doing something wrong in order for it to be wrong.
When I talk about drunkenness as being a sin, I am talking about the guy who keeps getting drunk and knows he is getting drunk. We are not talking about mishaps with children here.

I am saying it is always a sin if somebody consciously gets drunk and knows they are getting drunk.


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[Sabertooth]

Well, suicide bombers did not receive permission from God to be suicide bombers.

Generally, I would say contemporary suicide bombers still think they are living in the Old Testament, since they don't rightfully recognize the New Covenant.

 

[Cassidy Bennett]

But people have funny ideas of loving God and their neighbor. That is why God provided more detailed commands in the New Testament and warnings so they would not try and change or redefine in how to love God and their neighbor.

I have been doing some more reading on this issue and it appears that Rahab is not praised in James 2:25 for lying. She is praised for leading the two men of God down a different road of safety.

Contradictions: A Righteous Lie?

And in Exodus, it does not specifically say the Hebrew mid wives lied to protect the lives of any babies, either.

A Righteous Lie?


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I mean a lie of course is not something God is going to praise. It would depend on the motives of the person and the pure or impure incentives.

As far as the mid wives...though it doesn't specifically say they lied I mean come on they were insuating the babies were gone by the time they got there. Yes, they were using wisdom with it but it still wasn't technically the truth.

Also in both of those situations they were extremely blessed.... with no repentance required. In a sense that is approval. Not in telling lies of course... but in fearing God and saving lives.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean a lie of course is not something God is going to praise. It would depend on the motives of the person and the pure or impure incentives.

As far as the mid wives...though it doesn't specifically say they lied I mean come on they were insuating the babies were gone by the time they got there. Yes, they were using wisdom with it but it still wasn't technically the truth.

Also in both of those situations they were extremely blessed.... with no repentance required. In a sense that is approval. Not in telling lies of course... but in fearing God and saving lives.

Plain and simple. God says in His Word that is it is impossible for God to lie. We are told to be ye holy as God is holy. So if we are are to imitate God, then by all means lying should be impossible for us, too. For it is the good character of our God. The Hebrew midwives feared God. So I doubt they would have feared the soldiers and cared less about what God thought. They feared God. That is all I need to know. You can make assumption on the text to justify them lying, but it does not say they did lie.


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[Cassidy Bennett]

Plain and simple. God says in His Word that is it is impossible for God to lie. We are told to be ye holy as God is holy. So if we are are to imitate God, then by all means lying should be impossible for us, too. For it is the good character of our God. The Hebrew midwives feared God. So I doubt they would have feared the soldiers and cared less about what God thought. They feared God. That is all I need to know. You can make assumption on the text to justify them lying, but it does not say they did lie.


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Okay....not trying to step on your toes over here. I like the debating bc it's thought provoking. Let's just agree to disagree.

Fyi I'm glad your agent for Christ. I love Jesus too.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What about Abraham's lie?

Check out this article here:

Did Abram Really Lie?

Very interesting.


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[Apex]

Yes, but I do not believe it is the same kind of lying like in Revelation 21:8 and like with Ananais and Sapphira. This was so as to protect human lives (God's people) in the art of war. Something similar can be seen with Hebrew mid wives who lied to protect little ones from being slaughtered.


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So....you are applying context to determine the moral nature of lying? I think you secretly agree with me!

As for Revelation 21:8, "idolaters and all liars" are those implicated in the worship of the beast and seduced by the lies and deceptions of the false prophet. The specific liar at issue here is the one who claims that another apart from God is seated on the throne: such liars contrast with the Christ, who witnesses to the truth.

The Greek word here is ψευδής. When found outside of a vice list and surrounded by actual context, it is commonly found to be idolatrous or malicious in nature. For example, we see it used in Acts 6:13:

And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council, and they set up false [ψευδής] witnesses who said, "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law."

Also see Josephus Antiquities 18.299 and the Ascension of Isaiah 3:10.

"Harmful and false testimony" is a better English translation. In Rev. 21:8, the intention of these falsehoods is to discredit Christ. The context is idolatry.

 

[Apex]

That was an accident and it was not done intentionally. There is a difference.

Yes, you got it now! It wasn't a sin because INTENTION matters.

Okay, call it excessive drinking. Does not change the fact that it is still always sinful.
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So, you think my cousin sinned?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, you got it now! It wasn't a sin because INTENTION matters.

So, you think my cousin sinned?

No, I said that it was an accident. I am talking about willful sins done consciously here with a person knowing that such a thing is evil. There is the difference.


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[Bible Highlighter]

So....you are applying context to determine the moral nature of lying? I think you secretly agree with me!

As for Revelation 21:8, "idolaters and all liars" are those implicated in the worship of the beast and seduced by the lies and deceptions of the false prophet. The specific liar at issue here is the one who claims that another apart from God is seated on the throne: such liars contrast with the Christ, who witnesses to the truth.

Now, you are just making stuff up. That is not the context. Revelation 21:8 follows after the Great White Throne Judgment and the mention of the New Heavens and the New Earth.

The Greek word here is ψευδής.

Sorry, you did not grow up speaking or writing Hebrew or Greek in that world.
The best way to know a Hebrew or Greek is to speak and write these languages amongst the actual culture of people who know them. Then from there, it is good to compare it with the English as one's life line. Most people I encounter have not experienced this, so they have no credibility for me; And even then I am super cautious and suspicious. So please take no offense, but pretty much I just turn on a TV static channel noise whenever anyone says they know what a certain word or words mean in the Greek or Hebrew. I prefer people speaking to me in the English when it comes to the Bible because we read the Bible in English and not the Hebrew and Greek.

When found outside of a vice list and surrounded by actual context, it is commonly found to be idolatrous or malicious in nature. For example, we see it used in Acts 6:13:

And they stirred up the people and the elders and the scribes, and they came upon him and seized him and brought him before the council, and they set up false [ψευδής] witnesses who said, "This man never ceases to speak words against this holy place and the law."

Also see Josephus Antiquities 18.299 and the Ascension of Isaiah 3:10.

"Harmful and false testimony" is a better English translation. In Rev. 21:8, the intention of these falsehoods is to discredit Christ. The context is idolatry.

No. Revelation 21:8 is talking about lying when it says "all liars."

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

"idolaters, and all liars."

Two things here.
They are not one and the same thing.


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[Apex]

No, I said that it was an accident. I am talking about willful sins done consciously here with a person knowing that such a thing is evil. There is the difference.


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I'm honestly confused on why you think we are at a disagreement. The difference is intention and context - not action. All my real world examples have proven this. Actions are ethically neutral. Intention and context determine ethicality.

You mentioned in an early post that anytime someone has intercourse before marriage it is always a sin. Do you think this is true if a unmarried virgin is forcible raped? Was that not intercourse before marriage? Is she still an intact virgin? From your past answers, surely you don't think this is a sin on her part. But you keep on saying ALL sex before marriage is ALWAYS a sin. Why?

 

[Apex]

Sorry, you did not grow up speaking or writing Hebrew or Greek in that world.
The best way to know a Hebrew or Greek is to speak and write these languages amongst the actual culture of people who know them. Then from there, it is good to compare it with the English as one's life line. Most people I encounter have not experienced this, so they have no credibility for me; And even then I am super cautious and suspicious. So please take no offense, but pretty much I just turn on a TV static channel noise whenever anyone says they know what a certain word or words mean in the Greek or Hebrew. I prefer people speaking to me in the English when it comes to the Bible because we read the Bible in English and not the Hebrew and Greek.

What do you do when English translations differ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm honestly confused on why you think we are at a disagreement. The difference is intention and context - not action. All my real world examples have proven this. Actions are ethically neutral. Intention and context determine ethicality.

Not in every case, no. How about idolatry or praying to the dead? How about the physical beating of children. When I say physical beating we are talking about serious bruises taking place here. It is always wrong to get plastered drunk and then drive. I am not talking about doing a little sippy sippy of Dad's cough medicine here. I am talking about full head on chugging of alcohol; Which could include funnels or bongs.

You mentioned in an early post that anytime someone has intercourse before marriage it is always a sin. Do you think this is true if a unmarried virgin is forcible raped? Was that not intercourse before marriage? Is she still an intact virgin? From your past answers, surely you don't think this is a sin on her part. But you keep on saying ALL sex before marriage is ALWAYS a sin. Why?

Again, I am talking about a person consenting to do evil and not situations of where they are forced.
When God's Word condemns adultery (sex outside of marriage), rape victims are not a part of that command.


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[Bible Highlighter]

What do you do when English translations differ?

I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God for various reasons Biblically.
I used Modern Translations sort of like I am panning through the dirt to get to the gold that is in the KJV. Cross references, the context, prayer, looking at what other more seasoned believers say, and morality all play an important part in determining the truth of God's Word.



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[Apex]

Not in every case, no. How about idolatry or praying to the dead? How about the physical beating of children. When i say physical beating we are talking about the actual abuse. It is always wrong to get plastered drunk and then drive. I am not talking about doing a little sippy sippy of Dad's cough medicine here. I am talking about full head on chugging of alcohol; Which could include funnels or bongs.

Again, I am talking about a person consenting to do evil and not situations of where they are forced.
When God's Word condemns adultery (sex outside of marriage), rape victims are not a part of that command.


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Well...what you are describing is intention and context as the determining factors on ethical conclusions. I literally don't understand how you don't see that. I'll back off. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Apex]

I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God for various reasons Biblically.
I used Modern Translations sort of like I am panning through the dirt to get to the gold that is in the KJV.



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Well, that explains that. Have a good day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, that explains that. Have a good day.

And that's not at all (of course).
Cross references, the context, prayer, looking at what other more seasoned believers say, and morality all play an important part in determining the truth of God's Word, as well.

Study to show yourself approved unto a God, a workman that be not ashamed (2 Timothy 2:15).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Subjective morality is not taught in God's Word.
Morals are not subjective.
God lists certain things that man is not to do that is wrong and this would be in application to willingly doing something evil and it does not apply to accidents or rape victims, etc.


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[Apex]

Subjective morality is not taught in God's Word.
Morals are not subjective.
God lists certain things that man is not to do that is wrong and this would be in application to willingly doing something evil and it does not apply to accidents or rape victims, etc.


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You keep making me want to reply! Stop it. Last one. I subscribe to absolute morality too. Rape is absolutely wrong in all contexts in which rape occurs. But rape is still just a result of an action, not the action itself. Rape goes beyond intercourse (the action). What differentiates rape from other forms of intercourse? Intention and context.

And to loop this back on topic, this is how I see lying too.

 

[RDKirk]

So obviously Rahab's lie was not the same kind of lying as others do. This is why it must be that lying during the Old Testament times so as to protect lives or during war time to deceive the enemy is merely a tactic of battle and it is not selfishly motivated lying for one's own reasons alone for nobody else's good. For example: It is wrong to murder, but yet God commands the Israelites to take the of life of His enemies.

So one is murder and the other is not.
One is lying and the other is merely a tactic of deception as a part of the art of war (for the greater good of God's good people).


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I think that just as killing in a God-directed war is not murder, tactical deception in a God-directed war is not lying.