When is lying not sinful?

RDKirk

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You bring up some valid questions and cite very common examples of men and women in the Bible using lies and dishonesty to save themselves and others. It is important to remember to know the Law and why and how God uses it to carry out His judgments upon us.

We should remember the first judgment of God against deception with the intent of lying when the serpent deceived Eve: God made it clear from the beginning that He does not justify liars. And we see this same example with Satan--formerly known as Lucifer--who was cast out of heaven for believing that he could be God and usurp His Throne: God cast him and his host out of heaven for believing and proclaiming such a lie: for how could that which was created ever be the Creator?

In the case of Abraham with Pharaoh we see that Abraham's fear of what could happen caused him to forget that God would bless those who blessed him and curse those who cursed him: this caused Abraham to come up with a scheme to save himself but, his scheme nearly cost him in the end. Had not God intervened Pharaoh would have married and lain with Sarah, thus forefeiting His promise to Abraham of the promised seed to bless all nations would come through him. In the case of Abraham and Abimelech God makes a statement made nowhere else in the Bible:

"And God said into him in a dream, 'Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against Me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.'"

-Genesis 20:6

We see that God knows when a man is about to cross the line and sin. And in the case of Pharaoh and Abimelech God exposed the lie of Abraham, and reproved both he and Sarah for not coming out with the fact that they were no longer half-siblings but, husband and wife. And we see that Abraham made wrong judgments about the leaders of Egypt and Phillistia: for if Abraham would've been honest from the start then Pharaoh and Abimelech would have clearly respected Abraham and Sarah being married, not to mention God would have protected them.

As for Isaac and Abimelech: he followed the same error as Abraham: saying that he and Rebekah were siblings, except, he and Rebekah were never siblings to begin with. And again we see that Isaac made the same false judgments about Abimelech as Abraham his father had done. And we see that Abimelech respected their marriage and protected them.

This pattern of behavior was nothing new as Laban was as deceitful as Rebekah. Laban accepted the servant of Abraham not because he was being a gracious host: but, because he saw the gold Rebekah received from Abraham's servant. Rebekah too tricked her own husband by finding a way to take the blessing from Esau and pass it on to Jacob. Jacob was not innocent either as he went along with the lie: and all because they felt that they had to plot a scheme in order to receive God's promises instead of simply waiting on God to fulfill His promise.

It should be noted that these men and women were not blessed for lying, for Satan was cursed for his lies, and the Serpent was cursed for his lies, and those who believed there lies were cursed as well. Yet why were Abraham and his descendants blessed? It is because God was keeping His promise to Abraham:

"Now the YHWH had said unto Abram, 'Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee: and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: and I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'"
-Genesis 12:1-3

Here we have three blessings bestowed upon Abraham and his descendants:

1) Blessings from God Himself.
2) Blessings from God through others' blessings.
3) Blessings from God through Abraham.

As for Joseph the Bible never states that he acted as if he didn't know his brothers, on the contrary it makes it clear that he did know his brothers when they came to Egypt:

"And Jospeh knew his brethren, but they knew him not. And Jospeh remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, 'Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.'"
-Genesis 42:8-9

And concerning the money and the silver cup of Joseph it is written:

"And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, 'Fill the men's sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth. And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money.' And he did according to the word that Joseph had spoken."
-Genesis 44:1-2

Joseph never denied not placing the money or the silver cup in the sack's of his brothers instead he says:

"And Joseph said unto them, 'What deed is this that ye have done? Know ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?' And Judah said, 'What shall we say unto my lord? What shall we speak? Or how shall we clear ourselves? God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants: behold we are, my lord's servants, both we, and he also with whom the cup is found.' And he said, 'God forbid that I should do so: but the man in whose hand the cup is found, he shall be my servant; and as for you, get you up in peace unto your father.'"
-Genesis 44:15-17

Joseph denied nothing nor lied about anything, instead he used deception to lead his brothers into thinking that he did not know them and, that he knew all about them because he was using his cup to divine: Joseph used his knowledge and the ignorance of his brothers against them in order to test their hearts and see if they had changed their ways.

And concerning David he did not lie to king Achish: he simply used appearances to deceive him.

As for the silly noises and blaming them on someone else: jokes are meant to be jokes but, the Bible does draw a fine line:

"As a mad man who casteth firebrands, arrows, and death, so is the man that deceiveth his neighbor, and saith, 'Am I not in sport?'"
-Proverbs 26:18-19

The man who jokes with the intent to deceive his neighbor is defined as a mad man according to king Solomon: for trying to pass off a harmful act as a joke is clearly a lie.

And concerning hiding someone in order to save their lives, take the example of Rahab when she hid the two spies. She clearly lied to the messengers of the King of Jericho yet, she and her family were spared and blessed: not because of her lie but, because of her simple act of protecting the men of God and, showing her heartfelt submission to God: therefore despite her being a prostitute and, lying to government officials: God accepted her because she accepted him in faith believing that if she helped the men of Israel then her and her house would be saved, and, they were saved (see Joshua 2:1-24 cf. 6:1-27).

And remember that the law blesses those who obey it, but curses those who disobey it (see Leviticus 26:1-46 cf. Deuteronomy 28:1-30:20), and Moses connected life with blessings, but death he connected with curses: and stated that God is the source of both in his song which he recited to the people and Joshua before his death (Deuteronomy 30:19-20 cf. 32:20-27, 34-35, 37-44).

At one point you conflate "deception" and "lie," then you end up carefully distinguishing them and essentially saying that deception is okay as long as nobody tells a technical untruth.

You were right in the first: Deception is deception. Satan can quote scripture--and scripture is always truth--but he speaks facts only in order to deceive.

Scripture indicates God has no problem with tactical deception used in combat by His people under attack. Tactical deception needs no excuse--it is the tool of any good soldier, it is what commanders do all the time.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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At one point you conflate "deception" and "lie," then you end up carefully distinguishing them and essentially saying that deception is okay as long as nobody tells a technical untruth.

You were right in the first: Deception is deception. Satan can quote scripture--and scripture is always truth--but he speaks facts only in order to deceive.

Scripture indicates God has no problem with tactical deception used in combat by His people under attack. Tactical deception needs no excuse--it is the tool of any good soldier, it is what commanders do all the time.
Thanks for your reply brother. It's good to hear someone else that understands and appreciates The Art of War. My point with the example of the Serpent's deception was to show that deception with lying is sinful whereas deception without lying is not sinful. Another way of putting it would be that sin is always deceptive but, deception is not always sinful.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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Midwives lied to Pharaoh to save Israelite babies and the Almighty rewarded them.
Yes He did bless them sister but, like Rahab's act of faith and respect for God and His people: this is why the midwives were saved as it is written:

"And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses."
-Exodus 1:21

It's the fear of God which moves God to deal well with us: not our own schemes and lies to save our hides.

Much love to you sister and God bless.
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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so in other words what may appear to be sin outwardly may not actually be so. it largely depends upon the intent of the action in question.
Yes brother that is correct!
 
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YHWH_will_uplift

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so in other words what may appear to be sin outwardly may not actually be so. it largely depends upon the intent of the action in question.
Meditate on the words of Jesus Christ concerning what you just said:

"But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, And saying, 'We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.' For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He hath a devil.' The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.' But wisdom is justified of her children."
-Matthew 11:16-19

"And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like? They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, 'We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.' For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, 'He hath a devil.' The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, 'Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!' But wisdom is justified of all her children."
-Luke 7:31-35

"Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? The people answered and said, 'Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?' Jesus answered and said unto them, 'I have done one work, and ye all marvel. Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.'"
-John 7:19-24

Let us follow Jesus who always told the truth, was secure in Himself and His beliefs about God, and making His judgments in righteousness and truth; but, let us avoid those who are like the Pharisees and the Sadduccees: these are liars, hypocrites, and insecure with themselves and their belief about God, and judging based on appearances only.
 
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Sabertooth

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Scripture indicates God has no problem with tactical deception used in combat by His people under attack.
I like your phrase, "tactical deception."
 
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Sabertooth

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so in other words what may appear to be sin outwardly may not actually be so. it largely depends upon the intent of the action in question.
At least, in a limited number of circumstances. The same thing can't be said about sexual sin, blasphemy, idolatry, etc.
 
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