What's wrong with mid trib?

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

It seems people are either pre or post trib. The mark comes mid trib and the antichrist is revealed mid trib. The first 3.5 years are pretty peaceful so why couldn't God wait till mid trib before the rapture? It seems the first 3.5 years is God's final chance for people to avoid the wrath of God and be saved, hence the two witnesses preach for the first 3.5 years then the rapture.

 

[Douggg]

It seems people are either pre or post trib. The mark comes mid trib and the antichrist is revealed mid trib. The first 3.5 years are pretty peaceful so why couldn't God wait till mid trib before the rapture?

The rapture could happen mid-trib - i.e sometime in the middle of the seven years. But it is not a certainty; it could happen before then. That's what's wrong with mid-trib; and similarly with pretrib, and post-trib. They are too restrictive.

Therefore, my view is what I call the anytime rapture view. Anytime before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - revealing himself to be the man of sin.

I think this is what you are actually looking for.

 

[DavidPT]

It seems people are either pre or post trib. The mark comes mid trib and the antichrist is revealed mid trib. The first 3.5 years are pretty peaceful so why couldn't God wait till mid trib before the rapture? It seems the first 3.5 years is God's final chance for people to avoid the wrath of God and be saved, hence the two witnesses preach for the first 3.5 years then the rapture.

The first thing wrong with midtrib is that there is no such thing as midtrib unless the GT(great tribulation) is 7 years long. Midtrib means in the middle of the GT, obviously. The 70th week is 7 years in length. Only half of it involves the GT though, that being the 2nd half. The middle of the 70th week would not be the middle of the GT, it would be the beginning of it. Any rapture taking place before the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week would still be pretrib no matter what one tries to label it differently as instead.


The timeline would look like this, that assuming the entire 70th week is still future.


The beginning of the 70th week. This involving the first 42 months(3.5 years). No GT during this 42 months(3.5 years).

The beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week. This also involving 42 months(3.5 years). The beginning of the 2nd half is the beginning of the GT, and that the GT is the entirety of the 2nd half, 42 months(3.5 years).

Midtrib would have to mean this. Since the GT begins with the middle of the 70th week, 21 months later the rapture happens, meaning there are 21 months of the GT remaining at this point. That would have to be the logic if the GT is only 42 months in length rather than 84 months in length. Therefore, midtrib is just pretrib in disguise since both positions have the rapture taking place before the GT ever begins. Pretrib means before the GT begins. Midtrib means once the GT begins, in the middle of it the rapture occurs.

 

[keras]

It seems people are either pre or post trib.

As such a thing as the Church being taken to heaven is never said to happen in the Bible, the best belief to have is that we must stand firm in our faith through all that is prophesied to take place.

A 'rapture to heaven' at any time, by those who like to believe fables, is a serious mistake and may result in a nasty surprise, or worse; a loss of rewards.

 

[Timtofly]

The first thing wrong with midtrib is that there is no such thing as midtrib unless the GT(great tribulation) is 7 years long. Midtrib means in the middle of the GT, obviously. The 70th week is 7 years in length. Only half of it involves the GT though, that being the 2nd half. The middle of the 70th week would not be the middle of the GT, it would be the beginning of it. Any rapture taking place before the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week would still be pretrib no matter what one tries to label it differently as instead.


The timeline would look like this, that assuming the entire 70th week is still future.


The beginning of the 70th week. This involving the first 42 months(3.5 years). No GT during this 42 months(3.5 years).

The beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week. This also involving 42 months(3.5 years). The beginning of the 2nd half is the beginning of the GT, and that the GT is the entirety of the 2nd half, 42 months(3.5 years).

Midtrib would have to mean this. Since the GT begins with the middle of the 70th week, 21 months later the rapture happens, meaning there are 21 months of the GT remaining at this point. That would have to be the logic if the GT is only 42 months in length rather than 84 months in length. Therefore, midtrib is just pretrib in disguise since both positions have the rapture taking place before the GT ever begins. Pretrib means before the GT begins. Midtrib means once the GT begins, in the middle of it the rapture occurs.

The Second Coming/rapture is the same event. It happens mid 70th week. The fact that the first coming was the first 3.5 years of the 70th week. The first 3.5 years were rather peaceful, with Jesus teaching His disciples and preparing them for the Cross and Resurrection.

The second half of Daniel's 70th week, is the second earthly ministry of Jesus Christ. It is the GT because it is the final harvest, and souls are being taken out of the body by angels and sent to either eternal life or eternal damnation. Besides all the Trumpet Judgments and Thunder Judgments is the refining fire of God's wrath.

Then comes Satan's 42 months. Satan gets the leftover harvest. This 42 months is not part of the planned 70th week. It is the split in the 7th Trumpet celebration that should end the 70th week. The last 3.5 days of the 70th week are postponed only until the end of these 42 months of desolation. During the last 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead is when the 7 vials are poured out on Satan's worshippers. Then the battle of Armageddon is the final act. The 7th Trumpet stops and the 70th week comes to an end.

 

[Douggg]

Any rapture taking place before the beginning of the 2nd half of the 70th week would still be pretrib no matter what one tries to label it differently as instead.

Except that pretrib "view" defines itself as being pre-70th week - as it considers the entire 70th week as the trib, just as mid-trib does.

I understand the point of your rationale of pre-trib (without the view add-on).

But in communicating with others, your rationale really does not fit the pre-trib "view" common definition that its advocates created as far as when the rapture must take place...i.e. before the 70th week begins in the pre-trib "view".

I think, going by your posts, you are more suited to fitting the anytime rapture view that I have.

 

[Douggg]

Actually, the rapture is not adjacent before the beginning of the great tribulation - but before the beginning of the Day of Lord, based on 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2, which is slightly before the great tribulation begins.


the 2Thessalonians2:4 act by the Antichrist - triggers the Day of the Lord beginning.

Shortly, afterward...

the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation statue image - triggers the great tribulation beginning. Daniel 12:11-12 and Matthew 24:15-20.


Antichrist's act begins the Day of the Lord. God has him killed for it. Then in disdain for him, brings he back to life. The beast in Revelation 13. And the false prophet has an image made of him, placed on the temple mount, beginning the great tribulation.

 

[DavidPT]

I think, going by your posts, you are more suited to fitting the anytime rapture view that I have.

Maybe as long as the anytime rapture view of yours could also include anytime after the trib as well---maybe then I might be more suited for it. But if not, I certainly don't believe a rapture can occur anytime before the start of the GT. The Bible I'm reading, the same Bible you are reading, makes it crystal clear to me that the rapture can't occur before the start of the GT, nor during it, but after it instead.



Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

This is meaning the GT.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This is meaning after the GT, yet prior to the coming and gathering meant in the next 2 verses.
'
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


This is meaning the 2nd coming, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture of the church, all rolled up in one event, after the GT, not prior to the GT nor even during it. Verse 30 already makes it crystal clear that the GT is entirely in the past when the coming and gathering occurs.

An even better angle to look at this would be Mark 13:27.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth...likely meaning the rapture of those still alive at the time.

to the uttermost part of heaven---likely meaning the dead in Christ who are in heaven at the time and rise first.

 

[eleos1954]

It seems people are either pre or post trib. The mark comes mid trib and the antichrist is revealed mid trib. The first 3.5 years are pretty peaceful so why couldn't God wait till mid trib before the rapture? It seems the first 3.5 years is God's final chance for people to avoid the wrath of God and be saved, hence the two witnesses preach for the first 3.5 years then the rapture.

All go through the tribulation ... however it will be cut short and then Jesus will return.

Matthew 24:22

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

When Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens and all the saved are taken to
heaven.

John 14:3
New International Version
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

 

[Douggg]

Maybe as long as the anytime rapture view of yours could also include anytime after the trib as well---maybe then I might be more suited for it.

See, there's the problem in communications and terminology.

"the trib" - what do you mean by "the trib"? Do you mean the whole 70th week? Or do you mean after the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped? Personally, I would refrain from ever using the phrase "the trib".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This is meaning after the GT, yet prior to the coming and gathering meant in the next 2 verses.

"the tribulation of those days" equates to most of the great tribulation being complete.... but there is still the 7th vial of God's wrath to be poured out, and the rape and pillage of Jerusalem by the armies gathered in Zechariah 14. .

Matthew 24:29 is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. 45 days later He descends down to earth, and will end the great tribulation. During the 45 days, the armies assemble, come down to Jerusalem, surround it, rape and pillage whoever and whatever they can. And God empties the final vial of His wrath upon the world, the great earthquake, and the crushing hail.

And then Jesus descends down to earth with his saints, and the armies of heaven, the mighty angels.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is meaning the 2nd coming, the resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture of the church, all rolled up in one event, after the GT, not prior to the GT nor even during it. Verse 30 already makes it crystal clear that the GT is entirely in the past when the coming and gathering occurs.

David, the gathering of the elect in verse 31 is referring to the Jews scattered around the world in the nations. It is the final gathering of them.

It goes back to Deuteronomy 30, the blessing and the curse. And is also in Ezekiel 39:28.

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[DavidPT]

The rapture could happen mid-trib - i.e sometime in the middle of the seven years.

That is not midtrib, though. That is mid 70th week. Mid 70th week is not the middle of the GT, it is the beginning of it. Midtrib would be 21 months later after the start of the 2nd half of the 70th week, since that is when the GT officially begins. And if the GT is only 42 months, the middle of it would be meaning 21 months later. No one that I know of has ever proposed that a midtrib rapture occurs 21 months after it begins. Yet, that would have to be the logic if there is a position labeled midtrib, and that the GT is 42 months, not 7 years instead. How can before or at the beginning of the GT mean the middle of the GT? On what planet does that make sense?

 

[Douggg]

That is not midtrib, though. That is mid 70th week.

I agree.

 

[Douggg]

That is not midtrib, though. That is mid 70th week. Mid 70th week is not the middle of the GT, it is the beginning of it. Midtrib would be 21 months later after the start of the 2nd half of the 70th week, since that is when the GT officially begins. And if the GT is only 42 months, the middle of it would be meaning 21 months later. No one that I know of has ever proposed that a midtrib rapture occurs 21 months after it begins. Yet, that would have to be the logic if there is a position labeled midtrib, and that the GT is 42 months, not 7 years instead. How can before or at the the beginning of the GT mean the middle of the GT? On what planet does that make sense?

David, I agree.

The problem stems with what has become the mis-rendering of the term "the trib".

To avoid that confusion factor, it is best to always use the term 70th week, and 7 years. And never to use the term "the trib".

 

[DavidPT]

I agree.

Maybe what some folks should start doing from now on, is not proposing a midtrib rapture, but instead proposing a mid 70th week rapture since there obviously is no such position as midtrib to begin with if the GT is only 42 months rather than 7 years, unless one wants to propose that a rapture takes place 21 months after the start of the GT. I don't see anyone ever proposing that myself, yet that would fit like a glove with what midtrib is supposed to mean, that being, in the middle of the trib.

Even if one were to ditch the midtrib label altogether, and from now on call it a mid 70th week rapture, it would still be pretrib no matter how you look at it. Pretrib means before the GT begins. A rapture in the middle of the 70th week would certainly be meaning before the GT begins if the GT doesn't even begin until in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Maybe what some folks should start doing from now on, is not proposing a midtrib rapture, but instead proposing a mid 70th week rapture since there obviously is no such position as midtrib to begin with

I agree. They should use the term mid-70th week.

Pretrib means before the GT begins. A rapture in the middle of the 70th week would certainly be meaning before the GT begins if the GT doesn't even begin until in the middle of the 70th week.

But why continue with any term that has "trib" in it?

In reality, the views containing the "trib" part are...

pre-70th week
mid-70th week
post-70th week

Actually, what your view is Pre-great tribulation. If I were you, I would stop using the term trib altogether in describing your view.

Maybe you need to make a chart something like what I have...