The Alternative to a Rapture

[Divide]

Having only the angel army of heaven accompany Jesus at His return, contradicts nothing.
2 Corinthians 5:8 never says that we actually will be at home with the Lord. It is our ambition, wherever we are to be acceptable to Him. 2 Cor 5:9
Then, in 2 Cor 5:10; it is only after Christ Returns to the earth and we receive our rewards, 1 Corinthians 3:14, Matthew 16:27

2 Corinthians 5:8

8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.../

That is a contradiction right there. If only the Angel armies come with the Lord, then we will not be at home with the Lord. So the contradiction is there. It says very plain for then we will be at home with the Lord. Can you not see that? We can't be "sleeping in the grave" until after the GT, He went to prepare a place for us so that when He comes again He will receive us to Himself...(rapture)

How about another contradiction that you have created with your view?

Matthew 24:37-44
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.

40 “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left.

42 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming. 43 Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into. 44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../NLT

This is the foundation of th edoctrine of Imminance. The Rapture happens unexpectedly. There is no prophetic event which must happen before the rapture can take place.

We know exactly what prophetic events must take place before Jesus returns to put His enemies down so will know to the day when Jesus will return. It's all in Daniel 9. The signing of the peace treaty by the antichrist for 7 years is what starts the GT and 1260 days into it, He does the sbomination of deselation by declaring himself to be God so the after 1260 days he breaks the treaty and 1260 days later is when the Lord will return. Daniel 9.

So that's a contradiction. If the saints dont get raptured until after Jesus comes back after the GT, then what is telling us to be ready all the time and that we dont know when He is coming for that?

Simple. It's two different events. Only Believers will see Him at the rapture, but at the 2nd coming every eye will see Him. Explain that one.

 

[Divide]

I can show you multiple places in scripture where it says that we will be delivered from the wrath of God. It doesn't say anywhere that the church goes through the GT. It says we will have tribulations but such that are common to man of the world. But the wrath of God is much different! ...such as the world has ever seen before.

Conclusion: we are raptured before the day of wrath. Jesus's 2nd coming will conclude the day of wrath!

You cant have it both ways it is two seperate events.
You want those scriptures that say we will not go through God's wrath? I have them.

 

[keras]

You want those scriptures that say we will not go through God's wrath? I have them.

We are told exactly how the Lord will help His faithful servants to get away from the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

But as for the terrible Day when the Lord sends His fiery wrath; the soon to happen Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, we remain on earth under His protection for that one day event.
Heven is never mentioned as a destination to avoid either of those disasters.

 

[Divide]

We are told exactly how the Lord will help His faithful servants to get away from the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

But as for the terrible Day when the Lord sends His fiery wrath; the soon to happen Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, we remain on earth under His protection for that one day event.
Heven is never mentioned as a destination to avoid either of those disasters.

It sure is in Isaiah.

Isaiah 26:19-21
19But those who die in the Lord will live;
their bodies will rise again!
Those who sleep in the earth
will rise up and sing for joy!
For your life-giving light will fall like dew
on your people in the place of the dead!
20 Go home, my people,
and lock your doors!
Hide yourselves for a little while
until the Lord’s anger has passed.
21 Look! The Lord is coming from heaven
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
They will be brought out for all to see.../NLT

On a side note, earlier you had said that we don't go to be with the Lord when we die, that we sleep in our graves. Take a peek at verse 19. We will live it says. It does not say we will sleep in our grave to be raised later. Oh it says that our "bodies" will be raised, and then we join back with our body in spirit and are instantly transformed into our new spiritual body.
If we slep in the grave with our body, it would say so.

Anyway, The Lord said we do not have to go through the GT and experience the wrath of God.

1 Thessalonians 1:
10 And they speak of how you are looking forward to the coming of God’s Son from heaven—Jesus, whom God raised from the dead. He is the one who has rescued us from the terrors of the coming judgment..../NLT

"Rescued"? Is that the same as we experience it and are protected? Or is rescue something else? The coming judgment is the wrath of God of the GT. No my friend, resuced means we are taken out before it, rescued, not protected, rescued!

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.../KJV

2 Corinthians 5:8
8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.../NLT

At home with the Lord. Remember, I go to prepare a place for you? There are many mansions in my Fathers house? So when do we go home and lock our doors and hide for a little while?
20 Go home, my people,
and lock your doors!
Hide yourselves for a little while
until the Lord’s anger has passed.

If we are on earth being protected by the Lord, is this what He means, go home? No my friend. He means to the place that He has prepared for us.

How do you explain the passage in Isaiah that I posted?

 

[Divide]

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9 For God chose to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us. 10 Christ died for us so that, whether we are dead or alive when he returns, we can live with him forever.../NLT

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,../KJV

No wrath.

Revelation 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.../KJV

No wrath. He doesn't say that we wont suffer tribulations on earth, but we will not suffer His Wrath!

Address these scriptures. What do you suppose they mean?

Isaiah 26:
20 Go home, my people,
and lock your doors!
Hide yourselves for a little while
until the Lord’s anger has passed.
21 Look! The Lord is coming from heaven
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will no longer hide those who have been killed.
They will be brought out for all to see.../

What does this mean? When does this happen? Which home? Here on earth? Are we being told to stay home and hide from the GT? Lol. no my friends! He went to prepare a place for us! He's had 2000 years to put on the final polish!

The saint are in heaven during the tribulation enjoying the biggest BBQ the Universe has ever seen at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Boooyy I dont want to miss that!

 

[Divide]

1 Thessalonians 4:13
13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died[f] so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.../NLT

So the NLT version of scripture comes right out and says it. God cant bring the saints back with Him if He doesnt take them to heaven first. It doesnt say that God raises them from sleep or the dead it just says we come back with Him at the 2nd coming. So we were there during the GT, in Heaven!

Here's the 1 Thessalonians 1:10 in the KJV for clarity.

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.../KJV

No wrath. Not protection from the wrath. There is deliverance from the wrath of God.

Show me where it says we see the wrath of God and have protection? You cant. I have shown that we are delivered from the wrath to come.

 

[keras]

Address these scriptures. What do you suppose they mean?

Isaiah 26:20-21 refers to the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. We are warned to get under cover for the 24 hours of that Day.
Isaiah 26:19 refers to the Great white Throne Judgment, Revelation 29:11-15, when all the dead who 'sleep' in the earth will rise and stand before God. Some to everlasting life and the rest into the Lake of fire.

I will never buy the idea of going to heaven, as I know we Christians have work for God to do here, Skiving off is not an option.

 

[Douggg]

We are told exactly how the Lord will help His faithful servants to get away from the Great Tribulation. Revelation 12:14

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The church did not give birth to Jesus. Revelation 12 is about Israel going through the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9. The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem.

You use the term "faithful servants", but the text says the woman. What you have done is created your own phraseology as a misleading substitute for the term "church". But the church is not in Revelation 12. The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. Daniel's people are the Jews.

 

[Douggg]

I will never buy the idea of going to heaven, as I know we Christians have work for God to do here, Skiving off is not an option.

We can accept that is your individual choice not to go to heaven, but not as a choice for the majority of us Christians. The bible does not use the term "skiving off", but "escape" the time of testing that will come upon the whole world.

Heaven is a place not indifferent to God. It is home to the holy angels who rejoice each time a person turns to Jesus for forgiveness and atonement of their sins. Heaven is not an unfriendly world, like this world is today.


Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[keras]

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel. The church did not give birth to Jesus

Correct. Jesus was born into the Tribe of Judah, the tribe which holds the Kinly sceptre.

Revelation 12 is about Israel going through the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

Rev 12:6-17 is about the Christian peoples. Proved by verse 17.

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem.

Daniels people were always the faithful minority, as his 3 friends were, that were thrown into the fiery furnace.
Today; that is still the case and there are a few Jews who qualify, but most are those who have been grafted in.

We can accept that is your individual choice not to go to heaven, but not as a choice for the majority of us Christians. The bible does not use the term "skiving off", but "escape" the time of testing that will come upon the whole world.

It is those who choose the idea of an escape to heaven, who are deceived and confused.
Thinking that Matthew 6:20-21 means people will go to heaven, is simply pretentious nonsense.

I guess that I am fortunate in that the Lord has given me a task to do here on earth. Of promoting the Prophetic Word.
Actually, everyone has the task of promoting the Gospel and for all of us, it does not stop until Jesus Returns. Matthew 28:20-21

 

[Divide]

It is those who choose the idea of an escape to heaven, who are deceived and confused.
Thinking that Matthew 6:20-21 means people will go to heaven, is simply pretentious nonsense.

Luke 21:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.../KJV

So let me get this right. This verse is pretentious nonsense?

What should I do with this verse? Tear it out of my bible? Why do you think it is pretentious nonsense if it is in scripture?

 

[Divide]

Daniels people were always the faithful minority, as his 3 friends were, that were thrown into the fiery furnace.
Today; that is still the case and there are a few Jews who qualify, but most are those who have been grafted in.

Well that's nice to know. But what else can you tell us about Daniel 9? Do you see that, once the abomination of desolation takes place at the mid trib then we can count the days until Jesus return? 1260 days.

Do you agree with that or not?

 

[Divide]

Isaiah 26:20-21 refers to the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath. We are warned to get under cover for the 24 hours of that Day.
Isaiah 26:19 refers to the Great white Throne Judgment, Revelation 29:11-15, when all the dead who 'sleep' in the earth will rise and stand before God. Some to everlasting life and the rest into the Lake of fire.

I will never buy the idea of going to heaven, as I know we Christians have work for God to do here, Skiving off is not an option.

Skiving off is not an option you say? Ok Brother it sure sounds like you have a handle on it. So let me ask you why you ignore almost all of my questions to you? Why wont you address the contraditions?

...not an option, pretentious nonsense...What kind of answers are those? You come across like you do not have any decent answers so you just spout off a little instead. You see? I knew you would be like that. You can't defend your position or else you would!

So talking to you is a waste of time. You can't tell me where I'm wrong and prove it. You cant even show why you are right! Good day sir.

 

[keras]

Luke 21:
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.../KJV

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the Presence of the Son of Man. Revised English Bible. 1987
The REB translates this verse correctly. Proved by Luke 21:34-35, just having stated: what is coming, will affect everyone the whole world over.

To make this KJV mis-translated scripture into a proof of a rapture, is seriously wrong and is not what it means at all.

Do you agree with that or not?

Yes, it will be 1260 days before Jesus Returns, that the Anti-Christ 'beast' will desecrate the new Temple.
We are told in Rev 12:14, that then the faithful Christian group, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time and the rest of the Christians must remain. Rev 12:17
This separation is mentioned in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b

Skiving off is not an option you say? Ok Brother it sure sounds like you have a handle on it. So let me ask you why you ignore almost all of my questions to you? Why wont you address the contraditions?

I do and I have.
But you have gripped on to the fanciful idea of going to live in heaven. Paul said that some people would believe fables and they would stop their ears to the truth. 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Douggg]

Rev 12:6-17 is about the Christian peoples. Proved by verse 17.

keras, Revelation 12 is about Israel, the Jews. The woman is Israel.

verse 6 is the first half of the 7years which during that time the Jews will think the Antichrist is their long awaited King of Israel messiah.

After that fails because he reveals that he is not, the war in the second heaven takes place and Satan is cast down to earth for the second half of the 7 years. The time, times, half time.

The Jews become believers in Jesus in verse 10, becoming great tribulation saints. The ones in Judaea who flee to the mountains right away in verse 14 will be supernaturally protect from persecution.

The ones who delay are the remnant in verse 17. They are believers in Jesus, saved by grace not by works.

Daniels people were always the faithful minority, as his 3 friends were, that were thrown into the fiery furnace.
Today; that is still the case and there are a few Jews who qualify, but most are those who have been grafted in.

Daniel's people are the Jews. Daniel prayed for his people in Daniel 9 because they broke the Mt. Sinai covenant. They were not faithful to it, nor to God. Which is why they were in Babylonian captivity. They learned their lesson and came out of Babylonian captivity. But have yet to acknowledge Jesus as the messiah.

 

[keras]

They learned their lesson and came out of Babylonian captivity. But have yet to acknowledge Jesus as the messiah.

The House of Judah did not learn their lesson and they crucified their Messiah. Today they hardly acknowledge God and actively prohibit Christian proselytizing.
Matthew 8:12 is clear: Those who are born to the Kingdom, will be thrown out. And Matthew 21:43 says the Kingdom will be given to the peoples who bear the fruit of the Spirit...... Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 5:9-10

Your beliefs are in opposition to these and many other scriptures. You should cease making unsupported assertions and consider what the mixed race peoples who call themselves Jews; really are.

 

[keras]

When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6).
There you have it; two distinct Israel's in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children."

"It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise [made to Abraham]" (vs 8).

This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.

 

[Douggg]

The House of Judah did not learn their lesson and they crucified their Messiah. Today they hardly acknowledge God and actively prohibit Christian proselytizing.

The house of Judah went into the Babylonian captivity because they got into idol worship, influenced by the many foreign wives of Solomon who brought their idols into the land of Israel.

When the Jews returned, Nehemiah and Ezra successfully got the Jews back on track.

In the four gospels, Jesus accused the religious leaders of many things - but idol worship was not one of them.

-----------------------------------

As far as today's cross section of Jews, in regards to religion, I don't have that data, but the majority don't believe in Jesus, suffice to say.

There are proselytizing laws in Israel against proselytizing non-adults. And there is countermissionary (code named for Judaism's activity to draw Jews away from believing in Jesus) activity. And apart from the laws and coutnermissionary activity - my perception is that Jews don't want to hear anything about Jesus and the gospel of salvation.

Matthew 8:12 is clear: Those who are born to the Kingdom, will be thrown out. And Matthew 21:43 says the Kingdom will be given to the peoples who bear the fruit of the Spirit...... Christian peoples, from every tribe, race, nation and language. Rev 5:9-10

The Kingdom of God will be inherited "exclusively" to neither the Jews nor Gentiles. But to them who believe in Christ Jesus. Israel, the woman in Revelation 12, will turn to Jesus in Revelation 12:10.

You should cease making unsupported assertions and consider what the mixed race peoples who call themselves Jews; really are.

Apparently, you yourself are able to identify who Jews are by all your negative comments about them.

 

[Divide]

Yes, it will be 1260 days before Jesus Returns, that the Anti-Christ 'beast' will desecrate the new Temple.
We are told in Rev 12:14, that then the faithful Christian group, will be taken to a place of safety on earth for that time and the rest of the Christians must remain. Rev 12:17
This separation is mentioned in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2b

Ok so the 7 year peace treaty is signed and that starts the timer for 1260 days then that takes us to the AoD in the middle of the GT and then it is 1260 more days until Jesus returns. Good we are on the same page.

So since prophetical events have to happen before Jesus returns once we see them begin to happen we can count the days and we will know exactly when to expect Jesus.

But that creates a contradiction for me.

Matthew 24:42-44
42 “So you, too, must keep watch! For you don’t know what day your Lord is coming.
43 Understand this: If a homeowner knew exactly when a burglar was coming, he would keep watch and not permit his house to be broken into.
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../KJV

So if we know when Jesus will come for His 2nd coming, then what in the world is that talking about, you know not what day your Lord is coming! That contradicts that we know from Daniel 9 when Jesus will come. Can you see that it is a contradiction?

If it is the same event of Jesus returning for His Bride and to put His enemies down, it doesnt make sense. But if it is two seperate events, then it makes perfect sense.

Can you explain that for me?

 

[Divide]

When Paul wrote to Christians in Rome, some of whom were Jews, he revealed the existence of two Israels in one sentence while rejecting one of them as such: "Not all the ones of Israel are Israel..." (Romans 9:6).
There you have it; two distinct Israel's in one statement. The first represents the Israelites by blood alone, but Paul says this Israel is not Israel at all! Clearly, then, he calls the one, "Israel," whom he believes is not Israel, which can only mean he retains the use of the term only to identify the bloodline of Abraham, not to define it. He goes on to say, "...nor because they are the seed of Abraham are they all his children."

"It is not [Abraham's] children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise [made to Abraham]" (vs 8).

This proves that Christians are now the only Israel of God.

That's replacement theology. Israel was not replaced by the christian church. Shall I prove it?

First let me ask you if you can tell what is the purpose of the GT?

Take a stab at that one and answer it and then I will tell you the truth.

"Christians are now the only Israel of God..."

Have you read Romans 11 lately? Here's a portion of it:

Romans 11:11
11 Did God’s people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! They were disobedient, so God made salvation available to the Gentiles. But he wanted his own people to become jealous and claim it for themselves. 12 Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God’s offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.../NLT

That doesn't sound like God abandoned Israel to me! You sir, are incorrect. Go read Romans 11 and see for yourself! God is not through with Israel!

So what is the purpose of the Great Tribulation?