Who were the 144,000

[Eprom]

The 144,000 may have been tasked with evangelizing the earth, but there is nothing in the text of Revelation that would suggest this. Certainly, there is no literary tie between the 144,000 and the multitudes of saints that came out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:9, 10. Both of these groups are in Heaven - the 144,000 are being sealed in Heaven and the and now found in Heaven being comforted by God but there is nothing in the text that connects the two of them.

We see the Two Witnesses prophesying in Revelation 11:6 and the angel in Rev 14:6 having the eternal gospel to preach, so if the 144,000 were evangelists, why doesn't the text say so?

What do we know about the 144,000?

1) They are saved from among the lines of Israel as the text so clearly states in Revelation 7:4-8. Those in the replacement theology camp are uncomfortable with this idea so they attempt to allegorize and spiritualize this passage away, but the fact is that God still has a plan for the people of Israel.

2) They were sealed in Heaven Rev 7:1-4 as the whole drama of Rev 7 takes place in Heaven, suggesting they are resurrected, and glorified saints. Perhaps because you may be in the pre-trib rapture camp that you cannot reconcile a part of the church being on the earth. However, these are resurrected and glorified saints so even within the pre-trib construct, they can. Perhaps the most compelling reason to believe that these 144,000 were resurrected and glorified saints is they were described in Rev 14:4 as: "These are the ones who have not been defiled with women," contrasting them to the 200 falling angels in the Book of Enoch who united with women and created the Nephilim. We find in Rev 14:4 that they had been "purchased from the earth", and finally, they are defined as "the first fruits of God" Rev 14:4 which connects them with the resurrection imagery of the Feast of First Fruits.

3) The 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father and the Son, partially as you suggest to protect them. As the righteous were protected in Ezekiel 8 - 9, by being sealed with a Tev, or a cross as it would have been marked in Ancient Hebrew, so the 144,000 come under the authority and atoning blood of Messiah. But there is more to this sealing than just coming under the protection of the upcoming judgment, as the seal of 144,000 is being contrasted here in chapter 14 with the seal of those who were marked by the beast in chapter 13. As those who followed the Beast were able to buy or sell because of their mark, the 144,000 were connected to God through their seal for their provision and power.

4) What we do know that the 144,000 did, was worship! Revelation 14:3 says "They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand." There are 10 celebrations of worship in the Book of Revelation and after each celebration, something amazing happens. In this case, the worship of the 144,000 evokes the rapture of the church in Revelation 14:14-20. I also believe they are part of the worship celebration of Revelation 15, as "they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb" - something you could imagine a group of redeemed and glorified Messianic saints could do. In the celebration of worship of Revelation 15, they bring about the the anti-creation event of Revelation 16.

 

[Dan Perez]

The 144,000 may have been tasked with evangelizing the earth, but there is nothing in the text of Revelation that would suggest this. Certainly, there is no literary tie between the 144,000 and the multitudes of saints that came out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:9, 10. Both of these groups are in Heaven - the 144,000 are being sealed in Heaven and the and now found in Heaven being comforted by God but there is nothing in the text that connects the two of them.

We see the Two Witnesses prophesying in Revelation 11:6 and the angel in Rev 14:6 having the eternal gospel to preach, so if the 144,000 were evangelists, why doesn't the text say so?

What do we know about the 144,000?

1) They are saved from among the lines of Israel as the text so clearly states in Revelation 7:4-8. Those in the replacement theology camp are uncomfortable with this idea so they attempt to allegorize and spiritualize this passage away, but the fact is that God still has a plan for the people of Israel.

2) They were sealed in Heaven Rev 7:1-4 as the whole drama of Rev 7 takes place in Heaven, suggesting they are resurrected, and glorified saints. Perhaps because you may be in the pre-trib rapture camp that you cannot reconcile a part of the church being on the earth. However, these are resurrected and glorified saints so even within the pre-trib construct, they can. Perhaps the most compelling reason to believe that these 144,000 were resurrected and glorified saints is they were described in Rev 14:4 as: "These are the ones who have not been defiled with women," contrasting them to the 200 falling angels in the Book of Enoch who united with women and created the Nephilim. We find in Rev 14:4 that they had been "purchased from the earth", and finally, they are defined as "the first fruits of God" Rev 14:4 which connects them with the resurrection imagery of the Feast of First Fruits.

3) The 144,000 are sealed with the name of the Father and the Son, partially as you suggest to protect them. As the righteous were protected in Ezekiel 8 - 9, by being sealed with a Tev, or a cross as it would have been marked in Ancient Hebrew, so the 144,000 come under the authority and atoning blood of Messiah. But there is more to this sealing than just coming under the protection of the upcoming judgment, as the seal of 144,000 is being contrasted here in chapter 14 with the seal of those who were marked by the beast in chapter 13. As those who followed the Beast were able to buy or sell because of their mark, the 144,000 were connected to God through their seal for their provision and power.

4) What we do know that the 144,000 did, was worship! Revelation 14:3 says "They sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand." There are 10 celebrations of worship in the Book of Revelation and after each celebration, something amazing happens. In this case, the worship of the 144,000 evokes the rapture of the church in Revelation 14:14-20. I also believe they are part of the worship celebration of Revelation 15, as "they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb" - something you could imagine a group of redeemed and glorified Messianic saints could do. In the celebration of worship of Revelation 15, they bring about the the anti-creation event of Revelation 16.

There are many books written on the book of the Revelation , with different views .

I believe , that in this point in time we do know that they are completing Matt 28:19-20 !!

That the 144,000 are all Jews and will be preaching to JEWS ONLY , is where I stand NOW ?

Also the Tribe of DAN were taken out because of Idolatry as they led the 10 tribes NORTH .

I am sure there might be more and my time is short !

dan p

 

[Eprom]

There are many books written on the book of the Revelation , with different views . I believe , that in this point in time we do know that they are completing Matt 28:19-20 !! That the 144,000 are all Jews and will be preaching to JEWS ONLY , is where I stand NOW ? Also the Tribe of DAN were taken out because of Idolatry as they led the 1o tribes NOTRTH . I am sure there might be more and my time is short !

dan p

Glad you have it figured out, Dan.

 

[Dan Perez]

Glad you have it figured out, Dan.

And glad to see your reply and doing the best that I can and lots of study !

dan p

 

[oikonomia]

One can write many words which eventually amount to saying "I don't know."

Now I am going back to re-read the OP to see if I can figure out if a clear explanation is
given.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions for the lover of God's word.

 

[oikonomia]

The 144,000 may have been tasked with evangelizing the earth, but there is nothing in the text of Revelation that would suggest this.

That is right. That they are evangelists is purely speculation.
I think such speculation is based on some assumption that the entire body of the church is removed from the earth pre-tribulation.
And then some work of Christian evangelism has to be done by somebody, presumably from these sealed from the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Try as I do it is hard to be concise).

Certainly, there is no literary tie between the 144,000 and the multitudes of saints that came out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:9, 10. Both of these groups are in Heaven - the 144,000 are being sealed in Heaven and the and now found in Heaven being comforted by God but there is nothing in the text that connects the two of them.

This assumes that the 144,000 sealed before the winds of judgment hit the earth are latter seen in Heaven in chapter 14.
Now eventually as John looks far off into eternity those protected Israelites are part of the unnumbered multitude in verse 9.
Eventually they must also be the redeemed.

However, the two visions are seperated for a reason.
Reason #1 - Through the great tribulation the Angel of Jehovah seals a remnant of Israel to be preserved THROUGH IT.
Reason #1 - After all the judgment and tribulation throughout all of earth's history a near infinite size of human beings will
be saved in eternity.

This latter vision corresponds to the rainbow of God's Noahdic covenant of mercy seen around the Creator in chapter 4 and around
the head of the sign of Christ taking possession of earth and sea in Revelation 10.

The Triune God will not eternally condemn the whole of humanity nor destroy entirely the environment of living things.

We see the Two Witnesses prophesying in Revelation 11:6 and the angel in Rev 14:6 having the eternal gospel to preach, so if the 144,000 were evangelists, why doesn't the text say so?

In Revelation 1 - 3 the lampstands for testifying the testimony of Jesus are the local churches.
During the 42 months the lampstands for testifying for God are the two witnesses in chapter 11.

Exactly how they will testify as to content, I am not condifident to teach.
It is clear that they have the power to instantly destroy those who oppose them - instantly.
And their characteristics are like Old Testament tesstifiers. I think it is Elijah and Moses come back.

This is to counteract the devastating evil activity of a team of two others who I believe are
Antichrist - a modern man killed and resuscitated with the spirit of Nero and
the false prophet - Judas Iscariot some how come back as the most deceptive Jew in all human history.

I cannot prove that that false prophet is Judas.
But for some years I thought not until it made sense - a twosome of evil men from the past verses a twosome of God's men from the past.

What do we know about the 144,000?

1) They are saved from among the lines of Israel as the text so clearly states in Revelation 7:4-8. Those in the replacement theology camp are uncomfortable with this idea so they attempt to allegorize and spiritualize this passage away, but the fact is that God still has a plan for the people of Israel.

I agree with this explanation. Before the judgments of the great tribulation there are sealed of the nation of Israel
a remnant who will pass through.

2) They were sealed in Heaven Rev 7:1-4 as the whole drama of Rev 7 takes place in Heaven, suggesting they are resurrected, and glorified saints.

The two groups of 144,000 share the same number indicating perfection and remnant minority.
But one is seen protected FROM what they are about to pass through.
The other shows those who followed Christ right up into Heaven never having died - a unique experience
to the universal church. Most of the church through history died through the church age.

And they sing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been purchased from the earth. (Rev. 14:3)

The uniqueness of thier song means the uniqueness of thier experience which no one else has.
They, like Enoch, followed walking with the Triune God and were found physically where their heart ways. And that before the great tribulation.

We who are reading this post MAY have the opportunity to be one of these raptured Firstfruits.

If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things which are above, not on the things which are on the earth.

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:1-4)

Because most Christians are so physical minded and action minded they may wonder why it is not
shown them being raptured to Heaven. But according to God's priorities they simply appear there because
following Christ thier heart was always there.

There is little shock or suprise that they are suddenly there because they lived putting to death the flesh of the old man and
setting thier minds on the things above where Christ is. This is how we SHOULD all be as believers following our Redeemer.

Perhaps because you may be in the pre-trib rapture camp that you cannot reconcile a part of the church being on the earth. However, these are resurrected and glorified saints so even within the pre-trib construct, they can.

That they ever needed resurrection is speculation. Suppose they never died (the Firstfruits in ch. 14)?
They would only need transfiguration being alive.

That is why the sing a song which no one else was able to learn to sing.
It is not that only the saved of the entire church can sing such a song.
The greater part of the church does not have their experience - rapture before expiring.

Perhaps the most compelling reason to believe that these 144,000 were resurrected and glorified saints is they were described in Rev 14:4 as: "These are the ones who have not been defiled with women," contrasting them to the 200 falling angels in the Book of Enoch who united with women and created the Nephilim. We find in Rev 14:4 that they had been "purchased from the earth", and finally, they are defined as "the first fruits of God" Rev 14:4 which connects them with the resurrection imagery of the Feast of First Fruits.

Once you mention the Book of Enoch, I have no comment. I encourage you to forget about the apochryphal books as
interesting as they MIGHT be. This leads to just wanting to satisfy our curiosity.

We need to pray for light over the canonical books. We need to look for God's economy of imparting
Christ into our hearts while studying Revelation.

Rather than reachinf=g for the Book of Enoch reach for Genesis, Exodus, Daniel, John, Ephesians, Colossians, First - Third John, and other books of the inspired word of God. There is a plethora of "interesting" religious literature. Stay with the Bible to allow it to interpret itself. Now if the canon quotes or alludes to some apocryphal book (ie. The Wars of the Lord, The Book of Jasher, The Book of Enoch, some poem of the pagan poets) that is under inspiration and is profitable, safe and edifying.

That would be my honest advice. Forget the Book of Enoch to get light on the Bible.
The Anochrypha probably only has historical significance alone.
This battle has been won long ago - what belongs in the canon of the Bible and what doesn't no matter how it
may tickle our curiosity or sometimes "sound" authoritative.

I'll suspend here. You had some other fellowship which I may respond to latter.

 

[oikonomia]

I am still interested in your view of it Eprom.

Notice though the difference in the speaking about the 144,000 of chapter 7 and those of chapter 14.

Instead of the Lamb as in ch. 14 it is "another Angel" in ch. 7 which I take as Christ in a more Old Testament tone as "the Angel of Jehovah"
Instead or the Father as in ch. 14 it is "the living God" in ch. 7.

My opinion is that ch. 7 about the 144,000 has a flavor of carrying over a remnant from old covenant times.

Now. one other matter I would submit for your consideration.
First Peter speaks of the process of sanctification to also be God moving a person TOWARDS eventual redemption.

Chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father in the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. (1 Peter 1:2)

Peter is differs from Paul somewhat about sanctification in this instance.
It is not that only once being saved sanctification begins and proceeds.

Rather here "sanctification of the Spirit unto the onedience and sprinkling" is that God has chosen some whom
the Holy Spirit works to steer them, direct them, and arrange for them to arrive at Redemption.

In such a way I believe the 144,000 in ch. 7 sealed and protected from the judgment are as yet unsaved.
They are being sanctified to eventually arrive at the Lamb's blood and eternal Redemption.
They are chosen for this in spite of the then still unbelieving tribes of Israel.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The number is most likely symbolic, and isn't any specific group at all.

The number 144,000 is also 12x12x1000; the number 12 is symbolic: twelve patriarchs/tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles. The number 1,000, or speaking of thousands can often mean "a great many". For example the Bible says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, it doesn't mean only a thousand hills' worth of cattle; but rather that God owns everything. A thousand hills is a lot of hills.

So quite likely the number is a symbolic summary of God's people, it means all the saints. All of God's people who are sealed, marked by God, as His. The language of being marked is found several times throughout the Bible, in Deuteronomy 6 the people of Israel are to be marked by the Torah; Paul in Ephesians says that all who have heard and believed the Gospel are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In the Revelation there are two contrasting marks; that of the beast, and that of God; indicating two antithetical loyalties. Those who are marked as belonging to the beast and who serve him and his power; and those who are marked by God as belonging to Him and who serve Him and His power. The contrast between the kingdoms of the world in contrast to God's kingdom.

The 144,000 are includes you and me, as well as all who came before us, and all who will come after us. All who are marked by God as His. The saints of the Old and New Testament.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

The number is most likely symbolic, and isn't any specific group at all.

The number 144,000 is also 12x12x1000; the number 12 is symbolic: twelve patriarchs/tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles. The number 1,000, or speaking of thousands can often mean "a great many". For example the Bible says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, it doesn't mean only a thousand hills' worth of cattle; but rather that God owns everything. A thousand hills is a lot of hills.

So quite likely the number is a symbolic summary of God's people, it means all the saints. All of God's people who are sealed, marked by God, as His. The language of being marked is found several times throughout the Bible, in Deuteronomy 6 the people of Israel are to be marked by the Torah; Paul in Ephesians says that all who have heard and believed the Gospel are sealed by the Holy Spirit. In the Revelation there are two contrasting marks; that of the beast, and that of God; indicating two antithetical loyalties. Those who are marked as belonging to the beast and who serve him and his power; and those who are marked by God as belonging to Him and who serve Him and His power. The contrast between the kingdoms of the world in contrast to God's kingdom.

The 144,000 are includes you and me, as well as all who came before us, and all who will come after us. All who are marked by God as His. The saints of the Old and New Testament.

-CryptoLutheran

This where I stand at this moment !!

# 1 The COMMING // PAROUSIA of Christ happens FIRST , 2 Thess 2:1 .

#2 Which is also referenced in 2 Thess 4; 17 will be CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , for a meeting .


# 3 When 2 Thess 2:3 happens , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA , then the man of sin should be REVEALED , and that is when the , the ANTICHRIST be revealed .

dan p

 

[ViaCrucis]

This where I stand at this moment !!

# 1 The COMMING // PAROUSIA of Christ happens FIRST , 2 Thess 2:1 .

#2 Which is also referenced in 2 Thess 4; 17 will be CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , for a meeting .


# 3 When 2 Thess 2:3 happens , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA , then the man of sin should be REVEALED , and that is when the , the ANTICHRIST be revealed .

dan p

All other points aside, how does this relate to the topic of the 144,000?

However, putting all of those things you said back on the table, the plain reading of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 doesn't allow your ordering here. It's pretty obvious that Paul is saying the apostasia and revealing of the man of lawlessness must happen before the day Christ's returns.

Paul is trying to comfort the Thessalonians, who are worried that they might miss out on the resurrection of the dead. There were, after all, several heretics going around saying the resurrection had already taken place (Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus). See 1 Timothy 1:20 and 2 Timothy 2:17-18.

In order to alleviate potential fears arising from such heretical opinions, Paul states that there is going to be an apostasy and revealing of the man of lawlessness first.

Apostasy is probably easy enough to understand. But as for the man of lawlessness, we don't really know what Paul meant by that. Some, such as yourself presumably, equate the man of lawlessness with a future antichrist. Though that's hardly obvious from the text, which leaves plenty of room for debate and conversation about what, exactly, Paul is talking about. There simply has never been a clear answer tot hat question, but plenty of opinions.

Nevertheless, whatever Paul is talking about must happen before the Parousia, not after.

And, again, none of this has anything to do with the thread's subject of the 144,000.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dan Perez]

This where I stand at this moment !!

# 1 The COMMING // PAROUSIA of Christ happens FIRST , 2 Thess 2:1 .

#2 Which is also referenced in 2 Thess 4; 17 will be CAUGHT AWAY // HARPAZO , for a meeting .


# 3 When 2 Thess 2:3 happens , DEPARTURE // APOSTASIA , then the man of sin should be REVEALED , and that is when the , the ANTICHRIST be revealed .

dan p

Probability , because of your use of 2 Thess 2:1-3 as I believe that the COMING // Parousia has to happen first .

There is no Greek word for RAPTURE .

It is PAROUSIA or it is the Greek word HARPAZO // CAUGHT AWAY and verse 15 also uses the Greek word COMING // PAROUSIA also .

dan p

 

[DavidMark]

The number is most likely symbolic, and isn't any specific group at all...

... The 144,000 are includes you and me, as well as all who came before us, and all who will come after us. All who are marked by God as His. The saints of the Old and New Testament.

-CryptoLutheran

This is the context that gives me comfort and eases my anxiety. I began to meditate on this understanding after reading Mr. William Milligan's, a Scottish Theologian. I read his comments in The Expositor's Bible which was introduced approximately 1889. Thank you for posting those words.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As we all ought to know by now, the 144,000 were the first 144,00 members of Jehovah's Witnesses (at least according to Judge Russell, who initiated the group). Now that most of those folks have passed off this earth, heaven is closed to everyone else, including virtually all current members of the JW's.