Pre-mill Post-trib rapture to heaven Matt 24, Desolate Earth Millennium Jer 4:23-26, Post-Mill Second Coming

[BobRyan]

1. Visible Rapture of the saints at Christ's visible appearing (second coming is for receiving saints) -- Matt 24:29-31 "from one end of the SKY to the other" -- post trib, pre-mill
2. Destruction of all the lost - 2 Thess 1:5-8 - at Christ's appearing
3. RESULTs IN: Desolate Earth millennium - Jer 4:23-26
4. Second Coming to Earth (to reign on Earth) -- sets up Kingdom on Earth) Post-mill (Rev 21, and also Rev 20)

• post-trib visible rapture saints taken to heaven (The Bible calls this “the Coming” of Christ -- SDAs call this the second coming and is for receiving saints, coming for saints)
• desolate Earth millennium
• post-mill second coming (term as viewed by non-SDAs) – but all agree – this one is for coming to Earth WITH saints since they are already with Christ-– Christ’s kingdom on Earth Rev 20

Either we can say the Second Coming is a two part event. With rapture of the saints pre-mill and then post-mill 2nd coming to Earth to reign from Earth not to receive saints since they are already with him after the bodily resurrection.

OR we can do what some do - "rename" the rapture as "Second Coming" pre-mill... then have no-name of post-mill coming to Earth to establish reign from Earth.

======================================================

2 Peter 3 - -"The DAY OF THE LORD" -- in two parts.
Pre-millennial and also post-millennial

two resurrections -- one is pre-mill (the saints), the second resurrection is post-mill (the lost) Rev 20:6-10
Armageddon -- part 1 pre-mill (Rev 16, Rev 19), part 2 is post-mill (Rev 20:5-9)
Destruction of the wicked - Part 1 is pre-mill (Rev 16, Rev 19, 2 Thess 1:5-8), part 2 is post-mill (Rev 20:5-9)
Christ's Coming -- part 1 is pre-mill Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24:29-31), part 2 is post mill (Rev 20, Rev 21)
Rest given to the saints - Part 1 is pre-mill (Rapture to heaven), Part 2 is post-mill New Earth (Rev 21)
Rescue of the saints - part 1 is pre-mill (2 Thess 1:5-8), part 2 is Post Mill (Rev 20)

========================


1 . Post-Trib pre-Millennial Rapture as in Matt 24
2. 2 Thess 1:5-8 destruction of all the lost at Christ's appearing - same time as the 1 Thess 4:13-18, Matt 24 rapture
3. Post-Mill Second Coming of Christ to reign on Earth as King (Rev 20 events)

1000 year millennium is written in Rev 19-20 by the Apostle John. It comes after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19 and ends with the second coming in Rev 20.

Rev 20:

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.​

The Saints sit in judgment with Christ 1,000 Years... in heaven​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.​

(Take note - the rest of the dead (the wicked) did not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years. So that is why all the wicked are there to be tempted when Satan is released in vs 7)

5 (continued) .... This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.​

​

Satanic Rebellion Crushed​

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations​

 

[BobRyan]

Of course we can note that most Christians belong to a denomination that rejects the idea that the saints are ever raptured to heaven once resurrected.

From: Why Catholics Don't Believe in the Rapture
"Why Catholics Don't Believe in the Rapture"

So some objection would be expected regarding the POV of the OP

notice that in the rapture-objecting POV above - they admit this point

=============================================== BEGIN QUOTE from the link above

Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. (Matthew 24:40-41)

"Believers in the rapture argue that in each of these examples, the one taken is a Christian who is raptured up to heaven, and the one left will remain on earth to suffer the great tribulation. At first, that may seem pretty convincing,..."

...
The other most common passage used to support belief in the rapture comes from one of St. Paul's letters:

For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

"Again, this passage looks like it clearly teaches the rapture, ..."

===================== END QUOTE

That is a great example of NOT using gaslighting. Rather they admit that the text clearly supports the view when one reads it on the face of it - but then they go into reasons why they must object anyway.

I accept the rapture in John 14:1-3 in John 17 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 -- but I can appreciate the fact that someone who objects to it - is doing a good thing by not resorting to gaslighting.

BTW - their Matt 24 example above - could also have included

Matt 24:29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

=========================
Why do so many Christians accept the rapture teaching found in the Bible?

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (rapturo... Latin) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Even the Catholic article I link to above notes the "this looks just like the rapture" feature of that text. Quoting the article above on 1 Thess 4 -- "Again, this passage looks like it clearly teaches the rapture"
The article then finds a way to reject it - but interesting that the reading of the text above so directly affirms the rapture that even those who reject that teaching -- comment on it.

John 14:1-3
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house (Our Father who is in heaven Matt 6) are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Get the saints at His coming "from one end of the sky to the other"

Mat 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[BobRyan]

Desolate Earth Millennium

Jer 4:​

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Jeremiah 25:​

31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”
32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 "As it was in the days of Noah ... so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man".

The world's ending in Noah's day was of such a sequence that "it mattered" if you got that one right or wrong. Severe consequence for getting it wrong.

The scenario in the OP has that same unique feature. No other Eschatology paradigm has it.

The scenario in the OP is the only Eschatology paradigm that allows for the desolate Earth the Bible describes in the book of Jeremiah.

The scenario in the OP for the second coming - is the only one that can't be faked.

It is the only one that works with Christ's warning in Matt 24 where He says that if you are living on Earth and a day comes when someone says to you "behold - the second coming has happened and Christ is OVER THERE -" -- then you can know for certain that version of the second coming is fake.

 

[BobRyan]

Post-trib pre-mill rapture

Matt 24:29-31
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

That is "part-1" of the Second Coming. Part-2 happens after the 1000 years of Rev 20 - when Christ comes to Earth to reign from Earth, on Earth, In His continued rule over all the Universe.

=============================

Saints in heaven - as a result of pre-mill post-trib rapture

Matt 5:12 "For GREAT is your reward in Heaven"
1Peter 1:4 inheritance is IN Heaven

John 13: 33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come,’ so now I say to you. … 36 Simon Peter said to Him, “Lord, where are You going?”

Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow Me now, but you shall follow Me afterward.”


John 14 –

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
"I Go to prepare a place for you, and if I go I will come again and receive you to Myself so that where I am there you may be also"

Phil 1:23 Our citizenship Heaven – from which we eagerly await Jesus

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Matt 5:10 "For yours is the Kingdom of Heaven"
Matt 6:10 "Lay up for YOURSELVES treasure in Heaven"

John 17:
11 ""I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.
12 ""While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
13 ""But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves.
...
20 ""I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
....
24 ""Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world

 

[HTacianas]

Of course we can note that most Christians belong to a denomination that rejects the idea that the saints are ever raptured to heaven once resurrected.

From: Why Catholics Don't Believe in the Rapture
"Why Catholics Don't Believe in the Rapture"

So some objection would be expected regarding the POV of the OP

None of the Apostolic Churches believe in either the rapture or the mellinium.

 

[BobRyan]

None of the Apostolic Churches believe in either the rapture or the mellinium.

1. John explicitly wrote about the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20 (see the OP) -- that chapter has not yet been deleted.

2. Paul wrote about the rapture in 1 Thess 4:13-18 As even the Catholic article appears to admit - #2 for those reading that article and chapter

3. Matthew wrote about it in Matt 24 - in the words of Christ -- as we just read here #5

 

[WilliamLhk]

Desolate Earth Millennium

Jer 4:​

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Jeremiah 25:​

31 A clamor has come to the end of the earth,
Because the Lord has a controversy with the nations.
He is entering into judgment with humanity;
As for the wicked, He has turned them over to the sword,’ declares the Lord.”
32 This is what the Lord of armies says:
“Behold, evil is going out
From nation to nation,
And a great storm is being stirred up
From the remotest parts of the earth.
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

You Ellen G. White followers always leave out verse 27 of Jeremiah 4 --

4:27 For thus says the LORD:
“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.

Likewise, you also always leave out the very many prophetic scriptures that tell about all the people who will survive the devastations of the Day of the Lord. Such as Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 39, for just two.

Stick to the Word, not the teachings of Ellen G. White.

 

[BobRyan]

You Ellen G. White followers always leave out verse 27 of Jeremiah 4 --

4:27 For thus says the LORD:
“The whole land shall be desolate;
Yet I will not make a full end.

Nothing I said had anything to do with Ellen White -- as we all know. And there is no "Leave out vs 27" statement from Ellen White -- as we all know.

Simply "making stuff up" as a response is not very compelling. Why not address actual facts?

First of all - SDAs believe the the "desolated Earth" of Jer 4:23-28 is "made new" in Rev 21 so why on Earth would we want to argue that "a complete end" is made and that the Rev 21 statement is not true - for the Earth made new after the 1000 years.

By not paying attention to the details , and ignoring the text above - you are then limited to a very non-compelling idea that does not survive even a cursory review of the actual details. Why do that?

Likewise, you also always leave out the very many prophetic scriptures that tell about all the people who will survive the devastations of the Day of the Lord. Such as Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 39, for just two.

In the OT , Israel always had TWO possible futures for a sinful/in-rebellion world.
One in which Israel is faithful and did not reject the Messiah - So then was blessed
One in which Israel rejects the Messiah. Moses pointed out this two-path future in Dueteronomy as did Solomon at the dedication of his new temple.

Stick to the Word, not the teachings of Ellen G. White.

hmm -- you inject Ellen White into this non-Ellen White thread -- then try to blame your own work on others? How "convincing" is that tactic supposed to be??

=======================

Now for the "elephant in your living room".

Your response seems to argue that "scriptures that tell about all the people who will survive the devastations of the Day of the Lord" right at the point that scripture is shown here in Jer 4 and Jer 25 -- where there are 'no humans' on Earth in that millennium to come and in fact the slain of the Lord "are from one end of Earth to the other" with No one left to mourn the dead corpses.

It it not even logical - to argue that "humans survive the condition where there are no humans left on the desolated Earth" -- do you realize that "no humans left" is a pretty hard stopping point for your proposal???

 

[WilliamLhk]

Your response seems to argue that "scriptures that tell about all the people who will survive the devastations of the Day of the Lord" right at the point that scripture is shown here in Jer 4 and Jer 25 -- where there are 'no humans' on Earth in that millennium to come and in fact the slain of the Lord "are from one end of Earth to the other" with No one left to mourn the dead corpses.

It it not even logical - to argue that "humans survive the condition where there are no humans left on the desolated Earth" -- do you realize that "no humans left" is a pretty hard stopping point for your proposal???

Again, you simply read into the texts what you believe, and ignore the parts that contradict what you believe. The context of Jer. 4 is the land of Israel, not the whole world. And verses 29 and 31 say that only the cities will be fully desolated, while some people flee to rocks and thickets i.e. wilderness, as says Rev. 12. Jer. 25 says the wicked will be killed, while others will mourn. Hardly a complete annihilation of humanity!

 

[BobRyan]

Again, you simply read into the texts what you believe

Obviously not true - since the very quote of the text that you reject - is in fact what I agree with and what you refuse to quote on a thread that is actually ON the very verses you are avoiding.

How is this point even a little bit confusing?

, and ignore the parts that contradict what you believe.

Your approach is to ignore every detail in the scriptures identified in this thread - page 1 - opening posts and argue that you would rather discuss some other scripture that deals with an entirely different topic.

How is that even a little bit compelling in your POV?

Let's return to the actual topic of this thread -

Are you claiming to have some view of the future where Jeremiah 4:23-28 and Jer 25:30-33 are actually true?

If so - tell us about it, instead of avoiding those texts.

The context of Jer. 4 is the land of Israel

You are ignoring the point already proven in the OP where we see this same model used in Is 14 as Lucifer's fall is discussed in the middle of a chapter about a local King in Isaiah's day and also in Ezek 28 where once again Lucifer's role as "covering cherub" and then his fall - is discussed in the middle of a chapter that is about a king in Ezekiel's day.

It is not like Jeremiah 4 and Jeremiah 25 are the only places where we find this pattern in the OT prophets.

Why keep ignoring the answers already given "on page 1" -- and then circle back to argue for something already answered at the top of the thread? Why do that? what does it accomplish??

, not the whole world.

The text says it is all of Earth that is desolate and no humans on the planet.

Did you have "some other" future to show us that no humans were left and no birds left and all of the planet is to be left desolate - or all of Israel has no birds, no humans and no one to mourn the dead in the case where "those slain by the Lord will be from one end of the earth to the other with no one left to bury or mourn them"??

And verses 29 and 31 say that only the cities will be fully desolated,

vs 23 says it is "Earth" that is desolated. Other parts of chapter 4 deal with another scenario just as we see in Isaiah 14 and Ezek 28 where the same pattern is used.

You are not quoting the actual text -
Try it if you want to make a compelling point.

while some people flee to rocks and thickets

That would leave "humans" in rocks right up until they are destroyed as 2 Thess 1:5-8 says will happen to all the unsaved when Christ appears
That is pretty handy since 1 Thess 4:13-18 has all the saints taken to heaven and 2 Thess 1 has all the lost slain.

Pretty easy to see how that leaves you with a Jer 4:23-29 desolate Earth.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations>

8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth... 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
Now, according to you, these could not exist, since all people were either killed off or raptured earlier. And the New Jerusalem has not yet descended.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations>

8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth... 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

Which we would expect since - the part you are ignoring says all the wicked are resurrected once the 1000 years are completed.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. ​

​

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive​

By contrast those in the first resurrection are "blessed and holy" and are not subject to the "second death" punishment of the resurrected wicked.

5...This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.​

Now, according to you, these could not exist, since all people were either killed off or raptured earlier.

As long as you ignore the vs 5 statement that all those who are not the holy and blessed righteous - are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years you could indeed imagine such a situation as you state.

But in my POV skimming over the details does not work out well -- so then I choose to notice that vs 5 detail in scripture.

And the New Jerusalem has not yet descended.

Not true since as all Bible scholars know about the recapitulation model in the Bible where a short overview is given followed by a second telling of the story that adds detail just as we seen Genesis 1 and 2. Almost all study Bibles show this parallel idea in Dan 2, 7, 8, 9 where all or part of the same period of time is covered in part by 4 different chapters.

(This is not the same as the Preterist's view - since Adventists are Historicist (as were almost all Protestant Reformers) - not Preterists).

For example some of the 7's take the reader from start to finish in each of the 7s

Recapitulation: Interpreting the Book of Revelation?

I have read about recapitulation and the Book of Revelation. Is there a chart or something that helps to lay this out in a more friendly manner?

thirdmill.org

Revelation also uses the pattern of "recapitulation" on a micro level where a brief summary statement of a sentence or two is followed by a re-telling of the story that has more details added. Exactly as we see in Rev 20 and in Rev 21

By ignoring significant Bible details - many other views such as you suggest - can be had.

Now back to Jer 4:23-28 and Jer 25:30-33 #3 for which you seem to have no solution other than "let's look at something else" so far.
Consider actually looking at these texts that don't fit into any of your views of what happens on Earth - ever.

It should be a big red-flag hint that you find no place for those key statements in Jer 4:23-28 and Jer 25:30-33 which work out perfectly in the "Reformed Historicist" view that I am using here - but don't fit at all in "futurism" or in "preterism" - as you probably noticed at this point.

 

[WilliamLhk]

Not true since as all Bible scholars know - revelation uses the pattern of "recapitulation" where a brief summary statement is followed by a re-telling of the story that has more details added. Exactly as we see in Rev 20 and in Rev 21

"All Bible scholars know" -- right.

I am moving along now, won't spend any more time on your such claims.