The Alternative to a Rapture

[Douggg]

The resurrection happened when the soul left Adam's dead corruptible physical body. That body left in the casket returns to dust. It does not simply dissappear to change into something different.

That's not a resurrection but a departure. Adam's soul departed his body at the time of his death.

Yet theology teaches the church that Adam did not physically change from a body of life to a body of death.

No, all theology teaches that when Adam and Eve sinned, that they died as a consequence.

You don't believe in the resurrection of the dead in Christ ?

1Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Divide]

Did then find the Greek word RAPTURE in the bible , then say where that verse is found , then I can study that verse ?

Please give you thoughts on Cor 6:2 and 3 since you say they are not true , PLEASE say WHY , and do not just say that I am CONFUSED !!

dan p

The Greek word that Rapture was translated from is Harpazo

G726

G726 - harpazō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G726 - ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of ; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

www.blueletterbible.org

So to say that the word rapture doesn't appear in the Bible or in Greek would be wrong.
The Latin Bible uses the translation of "Rapture".
The english KJV uses the phrase "Caught up"
So it all depends on which translation that you are using .
(1 Thessalonians 4:17)
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

So you could take your bible and cross out "caught up" and write in "Rapture" and it would not change the meaning of the passage.

 

[Divide]

That's not a resurrection but a departure. Adam's soul departed his body at the time of his death.

No, all theology teaches that when Adam and Eve sinned, that they died as a consequence.

You don't believe in the resurrection of the dead in Christ ?

1Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead (flesh body) will rise and be joined back with his spirit and soul then be instantly transformed into their new spiritual body. That happens at the rapture.

Adam and Eve died the same day that they ate the fruit. But the died spiritually and not in the flesh. It was that day that death and sin entered into mans being. And Adam lived for 930 years I think? So Adam must have been some man and some body! Because it took death so long to kill that flesh body! Please remember that Adam & Eve only died spiritually the day they fell.

Since they were created in God's image and likeness then they were probably clothed in light like God is. (Psalm 104:2) so they probably glowed like Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration before they fell. The fall killed them spiritually so they probably stopped glowing and having divine enablements. When they stopped glowing, they knew they were naked and made aprons out of fig leaves as a covering since they were not clothed in light anymore.

There are two resurrections, one unto life and the snd one is unto death. (John 5:29)

Besides, think about it even logically....A man does not go pick up his Fiance whom He loves and say hey babe, we have a gang fight to go to and you will get the crap beat out of you, and then we'll go to dinner and the ceremony...

Even we wouldn't do that to our Fiance's! If we would not do such a thing then how much more would God not do such a thing?! He is coming for His Bride who is spotless and umblemished and blameless, why would He let her get beat half to death before the daye?

He would not. He comes 2 times more. One time for His Bride and He takes her to Heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the GT is going on on earth. Then when he returns to earth, He brings the Saints with Him...and touches down on the Mt of Olives and puts down death then sets up His Millenial reign on earth.

 

[Douggg]

Please remember that Adam & Eve only died spiritually the day they fell.

I think you mean only died spiritually on that 24-hour day that they ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree.

The beginning of sin's effect on their physical death also began that 24-hour day and lasted 930 years in the case of Adam... within the 1000 years, as a day unto the Lord is as a 1000 years.

 

[Divide]

I think you mean only died spiritually on that 24-hour day that they ate from the fruit of the forbidden tree.

The beginning of sin's effect on their physical death also began that 24-hour day and lasted 930 years in the case of Adam... within the 1000 years, as a day unto the Lord is as a 1000 years.

That's exactly what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear.

 

[Douggg]

That's exactly what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear.

Sometimes it is hard to communicate what we mean. I often go back and edit my posts to make it clear what I meant.

 

[keras]

He would not. He comes 2 times more. One time for His Bride and He takes her to Heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. While the GT is going on on earth. Then when he returns to earth, He brings the Saints with Him...and touches down on the Mt of Olives and puts down death then sets up His Millenial reign on earth.

This is not how the Bible tells it.
Jesus Returns just the one time and is accompanied by the armies of heaven.

1Thessalonians4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This prophecy does not say: ALL the dead in Christ.
Revelation 29:4-6 is the definitive Prophecy, confirming that Jesus will only bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him at His Return.
The rest of the dead await the end of the thousand years.

Any foolish notions of going to heaven and avoiding tribulation, while enjoying the Marriage Feast, are false and will never happen.

 

[Divide]

This is not how the Bible tells it.
Jesus Returns just the one time and is accompanied by the armies of heaven.

I used to be post trib just like you. But what I realized is that 99% of the Bible can be understood without knowing anythng about the Greek or Hebrew lnguages. But for 1% of the Bible if you don't have a handle on the original language it can lead one to wrong conclusions because the text isn't getting all of it through to us.

Like for instance, the disciples asked Jesus What will be the signs of your coming and so forth and Jesus gave them an in depth answer and spoke on a few different things. I thought all of it was one event, but it turns out that there's some certain little word or phrase in there that is generally disregard it and stay with the flow of the reading, But! Jesus changed subjects on them and it was a subtle thing but the disciples caught it because they knew the language with all of its idiosyncrises and I didn't so I didn't know they changed subjects to the rapture.

The exact reference and phrase is in my notes somewhere, not handy or I would give it to you. I'll look in my notes but will be in and out today.

 

[Douggg]

This prophecy does not say: ALL the dead in Christ.
Revelation 29:4-6 is the definitive Prophecy, confirming that Jesus will only bring the souls of the dead martyrs with Him at His Return.
The rest of the dead await the end of the thousand years.

No, that is not what Revelation 20:4-6 means (you made a typo, Revelation 29:4-6).

The day that Jesus returns, He will be accompanied by the raptured/resurrected saints of the 1Thessalonians4:15-18 event, and a host of angels from heaven.

Upon standing on the Mt. of Olive, directly across from the temple mount, Jesus will stare down the statue image of the beast-king indwelt by Satan, causing it to go up in flames, turned to ashes - exposing Satan for all present that day to see him physically.

Then the beast king and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire. I envision some sort of portal opening to it.

Then Jesus speaks and the armies surrounding Jerusalem die, their flesh disintegrating at they stand.

Then in Revelation 20:1-3, an angel descends from heaven, binds Satan in a chain, and Satan is then cast into the bottomless pit prison.

After all those things - then the martyred great tribulation saints will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Douggg]

Any foolish notions of going to heaven and avoiding tribulation, while enjoying the Marriage Feast, are false and will never happen.

The marriage feast is figurative. It will actually be the events in Revelation 19, pertaining to judgment on the wicked, and the armies gathered to make war on Jesus.

 

[keras]

I used to be post trib just like you. But what I realized is that 99% of the Bible can be understood without knowing anythng about the Greek or Hebrew lnguages. But for 1% of the Bible if you don't have a handle on the original language it can lead one to wrong conclusions because the text isn't getting all of it through to us.

Like for instance, the disciples asked Jesus What will be the signs of your coming and so forth and Jesus gave them an in depth answer and spoke on a few different things. I thought all of it was one event, but it turns out that there's some certain little word or phrase in there that is generally disregard it and stay with the flow of the reading, But! Jesus changed subjects on them and it was a subtle thing but the disciples caught it because they knew the language with all of its idiosyncrises and I didn't so I didn't know they changed subjects to the rapture.

The exact reference and phrase is in my notes somewhere, not handy or I would give it to you. I'll look in my notes but will be in and out today.

A very weak and flimsy attempt to prove a rapture.
The Bible is plain on every important issue; but the theory of a rapture to heaven of the Church, has to be inferred and assumed. I have presented the Biblical alternative to a removal and no one has addressed it or even considered the idea of going to live in the Holy Land. But that is our destiny; His people, His witnesses, His Light to the Nations and the people who Gog/Magog will be motivated to attack and the Lord will show His power to destroy them.

 

[keras]

that is not what Revelation 20:4-6 means

It means what it says. Why must you deny that?

The day that Jesus returns, He will be accompanied by the raptured/resurrected saints of the 1Thessalonians4:15-18 event, and a host of angels from heaven.

Pure unadulterated nonsense, an unsupported addition to Revelation. Bad you.

Upon standing on the Mt. of Olive, directly across from the temple mount, Jesus will stare down the statue image of the beast-king indwelt by Satan, causing it to go up in flames, turned to ashes - exposing Satan for all present that day to see him physically.

another laugh.
Maybe Jesus will destroy that statue, but you show here how you make wild assertions and present them as fact.

After all those things - then the martyred great tribulation saints will be resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

Jesus brings those souls with Him as He Returns.
I would think they will be immediately be resurrected then. No reason not to.
Those martyrs will participate in the Wedding Feast, which is at the Return.

 

[Douggg]

another laugh.
Maybe Jesus will destroy that statue, but you show here how you make wild assertions and present them as fact.

You better take a look at Revelation 1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

 

[Douggg]

Jesus brings those souls with Him as He Returns.
I would think they will be immediately be resurrected then. No reason not to.
Those martyrs will participate in the Wedding Feast, which is at the Return.

The wedding feast - i.e. the destruction of the wicked - is over before the great tribulation saints are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Divide]

A very weak and flimsy attempt to prove a rapture.
The Bible is plain on every important issue; but the theory of a rapture to heaven of the Church, has to be inferred and assumed. I have presented the Biblical alternative to a removal and no one has addressed it or even considered the idea of going to live in the Holy Land. But that is our destiny; His people, His witnesses, His Light to the Nations and the people who Gog/Magog will be motivated to attack and the Lord will show His power to destroy them.

Lol. Ok so I wont bother you with it then. Good luck with that cant be wrong attitude.

 

[Divide]

Pure unadulterated nonsense, an unsupported addition to Revelation. Bad you.

Is that all you have for people who dont see things as you do?

Bad show as a supposed Christian in my mind. You cant even carry on a conversation without the bitterness in your heart being shown to all.

I found my notes and can systematically show you with scripture and a concordance that you are wrong. But I wont other now because that is the type of answer that you say to me. You act like you just want to be right and nothing else. Wow.

This was a huge study of mine and you reject it before you even hear it. Good show man!

 

[keras]

The wedding feast - i.e. the destruction of the wicked - is over before the great tribulation saints are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

You show yourself to have very fixed ideas.
It is rather wacky to think those resurrected martyrs won't be at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

I found my notes and can systematically show you with scripture and a concordance that you are wrong. But I wont other now because that is the type of answer that you say to me. You act like you just want to be right and nothing else. Wow.

Pure unadulterated nonsense, an unsupported addition to Revelation. Bad you.

My reply was to Douggg, who said that the resurrected saints would accompany Jesus at His Return.

To say anyone other than the angel armies of heaven come with Jesus; IS an addition to Revelation 19:14 and Matthew 16:27.
That several other scriptures are mis-translated to say: 'saints', [the Greek word 'hagious', means either saints or angels ] just makes a contradiction in the Bible.
Which is proved to not mean 'saints', because there is nowhere that living saints are said to go to heaven in the first place.

My God given task is to promote the Prophetic Word and if I do that and upset some peoples beliefs, then tough! In no way will I water down or leave out anything the Prophets have told us about our future. THEY are right!
I present that future in #1. Why do you dislike and reject it?

 

[Divide]

My reply was to Douggg, who said that the resurrected saints would accompany Jesus at His Return.

To say anyone other than the angel armies of heaven come with Jesus; IS an addition to Revelation 19:14 and Matthew 16:27.
That several other scriptures are mis-translated to say: 'saints', [the Greek word 'hagious', means either saints or angels ] just makes a contradiction in the Bible.
Which is proved to not mean 'saints', because there is nowhere that living saints are said to go to heaven in the first place.

I'd have to agree with Douggg about the resurected saints returning with Jesus. I'm aware of the view that you expressed but we must remember that it must agree with the entirety of scripture without creating contradictions which it does if only Angels are with Jesus when He returns. It would contradict this scripture:

2 Corinthians 5:8
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.../KJV

And in the NLT:
8 Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.../NLT

If Jesus freed the captives from Abraham's Bosom after he died on the cross and took them home with Him and with the advent of His resurection the New Covenant was put into place, so now when we die we don't go to Paradise or sheol we go to be with the Lord. Those are the Saints that He returns with.

I could easily walk you through the scriptures for that but I'm not sure it would be worth the effort to you. You don't seem to want to hear anything except that which validates your view. When you make your little comments what you really say is that you dont even consider what the other is saying so spout from off the cuff. So what point is there in that? I wont be shaken in my belief about this and you wont either, so...?

I hear your arguments and viewpoint. Mine were almost identical before I did a whoe lot lot of study on it. And my efforts paid off for me. And you sound like a man who is unteachable but you should remember that we must remain teachable. Our doctrine must agree with all of scripture without creating contradictions. Your viewpoint creates many contradictions and that should be your clue that you are wrong in your thinking.

Do you think that you can reconcile any of the contradictions that you create with your view?

 

[Douggg]

You show yourself to have very fixed ideas.
It is rather wacky to think those resurrected martyrs won't be at the Wedding Feast of the Lamb.

The feast is in Revelation 19:17-18. The armies are destroyed in Revelation 19:21.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 18 describes the armies. Verse 21 describes their deaths.

Before the the great tribulation martyrs are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

The 1Thessalonians4:15-18 pre-great tribulation raptured/resurrected in Christ will be accompanying Jesus from heaven to the feast.

 

[keras]

Do you think that you can reconcile any of the contradictions that you create with your view?

Having only the angel army of heaven accompany Jesus at His return, contradicts nothing.
2 Corinthians 5:8 never says that we actually will be at home with the Lord. It is our ambition, wherever we are to be acceptable to Him. 2 Cor 5:9
Then, in 2 Cor 5:10; it is only after Christ Returns to the earth and we receive our rewards, 1 Corinthians 3:14, Matthew 16:27

If Jesus freed the captives from Abraham's Bosom after he died on the cross and took them home with Him and with the advent of His resurection the New Covenant was put into place, so now when we die we don't go to Paradise or sheol we go to be with the Lord.

This idea is a huge contradiction to Bible teaching about where the dead go. They all 'sleep' in the grave, only to be brought before God, after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Revelation 14:13......Happy are the dead who henceforth die in the faith of the Lord....they rest from their labours....

The only exception will be the GT martyrs, whose souls Jesus will bring back with Him and resurrect back to mortal life, Rev 20:4-6

And you sound like a man who is unteachable but you should remember that we must remain teachable

I have learned plenty since I started intensively studying the Prophetic Word.
What is very apparent, is how those who have believed the 'rapture to heaven' theory, are locked into that belief and no amount of proofs against that idea, or the alternative as I have posted, will change them.
This will make it very hard for them on the Day the Lord changes the world and commences the end times, as Revelation and all the Prophesies describe.