What's up with Torah-observance?

[Meowzltov]

As stated in the first verse, Acts 15 is about whether Gentiles are required to become circumcised and obey Jewish customs in order to become saved.

Are you saying that although Gentiles don't need to follow the Mosiac laws TO BE SAVED they still need to follow the Mosaic laws?

Acts 15 simply states they don't need to be Jews and follow the Mosaic Law, period.

 

[Moxie123]

The Pharisees saying the reason why they wanted to kill him was that he broke the Sabbath is not at all the same thing as saying that he broke the Sabbath. For example, if a man were framed for murder and executed, then the reason that the executioners had executing him was that he had committed murder, but it is nevertheless not the case that he actually committed murder, they just thought he did. Jesus did not keep the traditions of the Pharisees, so from their perspective he broke the Sabbath, and that was their reason they had for wanting to kill him, but Jesus nevertheless did not actually break the Sabbath according to how it was intended to be kept.

The prohibition against doing work on the Sabbath is not about lying in bed all day being afraid to move a muscle, about being afraid to get dressed because that will involve lifting and carrying clothes, or about being afraid to lift food to your mouth, but rather it is about ceasing from our labor, or our business, or from what profits us, and thereby demonstrating our faith in God to provide for our needs. So someone could pick up sticks on the Sabbath because they lacked faith in God to provide for their needs, but that is not the only reason that someone could have for picking up sticks. Similarly, if someone were getting paid to get around and pick up abandoned mats, then doing so on the Sabbath would demonstrate a lack of faith, but simply picking up your mat because that is what you were carried in on would not be demonstrating that.



How did the Israelites know what things were sin? When Jesus told told people to repent from their sins, how did they know what things they were supposed to repent of doing. The Mosaic law to reveal our sin and without it we wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7), it is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Jesus was born a Jew under the law (Galatians 4:4) and was circumcised on the 8th day (Luke 2:21) into the Mosaic Covenant, so the fact that he was sinless means that he gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic law, and as his followers, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

Beautiful post.

 

[Moxie123]

It is a central part of Christian theology that Jesus was sinless, which means that he kept the Torah perfectly, so if you think that he broke the Sabbath, then you should think that he was just another sinner who was in as much need of a Savior from his sin as the rest of us. Furthermore, the way that the Bible instructs us to tell that someone is a false prophet is if they teach God's people against obeying His commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so if you think Jesus taught against obeying God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be a false prophet. Likewise, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's commands (Deuteronomy 4:2), so if you think he tried to subtract God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be just another sinner who could not even save himself much less anyone else.

However, according to the Pharisees, if you didn't obey their traditions for how to keep the Sabbath, then you were breaking it, so while Jesus certainly broke their traditions, he never broke the Sabbath as it was intended to be followed. In regard to Mark 7, the topic of conversation was that you could be defiled by eating kosher food with unwashed hands and Jesus was simply denying that to be the case. His statement in Matthew 15:20 shows that at the end of the conversation he was still talking about not being defiled by eating with unwashed hands, so he never jumped topics from speaking against a man-made ritual purity law to speaking against obeying God. In John 8:1-12, we have another example of Jesus following the law rather than breaking it. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:5), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.

You know law quite well. Kudos!

 

[Soyeong]

Are you saying that although Gentiles don't need to follow the Mosiac laws TO BE SAVED they still need to follow the Mosaic laws?

Indeed, becoming saved was never the reason why the Mosaic law was commanded in first place. Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and the one and only way to become justified is by faith, so Moses was justified by faith before the law was given to him, which means that it was never needed or given for that purpose. It does not follow that because we shouldn't obey the Mosaic law for a purpose for which it was never intended that therefore we shouldn't obey it for any of the purposes for which it was given.

Acts 15 simply states they don't need to be Jews and follow the Mosaic Law, period.

Do you think that the Mosaic law is a heavy legalistic burden or a delight (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22)? If the Mosaic law is not a heavy legalistic burden (Deuteronomy 30:11-14, Romans 10:5-9, 1 John 5:3), then the law that they were referring to in Acts 15:10 was not the Mosaic law, but rather they were referring to the customs of Moses. Gentiles don't have to become Jews, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't obey the Mosaic law. In 1 Peter 1:14-16, it says Gentiles are to have a holy conduct because God is holy, so following God's instructions in the Mosaic law for how to have a holy conduct is about identifying with God's holiness, not about identifying as Jews, and the same goes for following God's instructions in the law for how to do what is righteous and good.

 

[2 know him]

The Pharisees saying the reason why they wanted to kill him was that he broke the Sabbath is not at all the same thing as saying that he broke the Sabbath. For example, if a man were framed for murder and executed, then the reason that the executioners had executing him was that he had committed murder, but it is nevertheless not the case that he actually committed murder, they just thought he did. Jesus did not keep the traditions of the Pharisees, so from their perspective he broke the Sabbath, and that was their reason they had for wanting to kill him, but Jesus nevertheless did not actually break the Sabbath according to how it was intended to be kept.

The prohibition against doing work on the Sabbath is not about lying in bed all day being afraid to move a muscle, about being afraid to get dressed because that will involve lifting and carrying clothes, or about being afraid to lift food to your mouth, but rather it is about ceasing from our labor, or our business, or from what profits us, and thereby demonstrating our faith in God to provide for our needs. So someone could pick up sticks on the Sabbath because they lacked faith in God to provide for their needs, but that is not the only reason that someone could have for picking up sticks. Similarly, if someone were getting paid to go around and pick up abandoned mats, then doing so on the Sabbath would demonstrate a lack of faith, but simply picking up your mat because that is what you were carried in on would not be demonstrating that.



How did the Israelites know what things were sin? When Jesus told people to repent from their sins, how did they know what things they were supposed to repent of doing? The Mosaic law given to reveal our sin and without it we wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7), it is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Jesus was born a Jew under the law (Galatians 4:4) and was circumcised on the 8th day into the Mosaic Covenant (Luke 2:21), so the fact that he was sinless means that he gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic law, and as his followers, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).

Telling a man to carry a bed is at minimum equal to carrying sticks on the Sabbath: you are in denial about your faith.

Moses commanded a person caught in adultery to be stoned and Jesus taught against that also: Jesus did not live by Moses law despite your need to believe otherwise.

Did you not read the prophecies that tell us that God was going to make a NEW Covenant not according to the covenant that God made with the children of Israel which covenant they broke... do you not understand that it is a new covenant? Jesus' words are law this is my beloved son HEAR YEA HIM. The King is Jesus and his words are law: they are the commandments of the New Covenant.

 

[2 know him]

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[Meowzltov]

Do you think that the Mosaic law is a heavy legalistic burden or a delight (Psalms 1:1-2, Romans 7:22)?

Keeping the Law is both a burden and a delight at the same time. Some times the hard road can be very satisfying. Being observant myself, I can say there are times when I think it's a pain in the butt. I'll want a cheeseburger or pepperoni pizza. Or I haven't done my grocery shopping in a week and now it's Shabbat. But all in all keeping the law helps me to serve God as a Jew, and that makes me feel good about things.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Pharisees saying the reason why they wanted to kill him was that he broke the Sabbath is not at all the same thing as saying that he broke the Sabbath.

This is one of those times that I believe we can't fully understand what's going on in the gospel without understanding second temple Judaism. The Pharisees were not a united group. They were divided into schools of thought. Bet Shammai was the school that was running the Sanhedrin when Christ was alive -- they were very legalistic, and these were the ones who claimed that Jesus had violated the Shabbat. Bet Hillel was the school that was less harsh, more spirit of the Law in its interpretations. The teachings of Jesus line up with bet Hillel.

 

[sparow]

Telling a man to carry a bed is at minimum equal to carrying sticks on the Sabbath: you are in denial about your faith.

Moses commanded a person caught in adultery to be stoned and Jesus taught against that also: Jesus did not live by Moses law despite your need to believe otherwise.

Did you not read the prophecies that tell us that God was going to make a NEW Covenant not according to the covenant that God made with the children of Israel which covenant they broke... do you not understand that it is a new covenant? Jesus' words are law this is my beloved son HEAR YEA HIM. The King is Jesus and his words are law: they are the commandments of the New Covenant.

The Torah is not only the Law but it is also a history of Israel not keeping the Law and the consequences. Apart from what was written on stone Moses Law was an application or rendition of Gods Law; Jesus gave a new rendition of the same Law while at the same time stating nothing can be changed in the Law. God's Law is a means to an end; the end is not the keeping of the Law; the end is walking with God, being in covenant with Him. Adultery is not about sex; it is about the persons moral worth, whether he is walking with God or not; abstaining from sin does not necessarily mean one is walking with God; to keep the Law with out entering in to the covenant is an abomination.

God's covenant is a standard form; whether it is new or old; where I come from the is a standard form for most contract types; when buying a house most people use the standard form contract and each time it is used it is a new covenant yet unchanged except for the people and property involved. God's covenant is a standard form and is the ten commandments and remains unchanged no matter how often it is used; God never changes and the covenant defines God.

 

[Meowzltov]

Indeed, becoming saved was never the reason why the Mosaic law was commanded in first place. Abraham and David were justified by faith (Romans 4:1-8) and the one and only way to become justified is by faith, so Moses was justified by faith before the law was given to him, which means that it was never needed or given for that purpose. It does not follow that because we shouldn't obey the Mosaic law for a purpose for which it was never intended that therefore we shouldn't obey it for any of the purposes for which it was given.

If your hypothesis were true (that Acts 15 merely stated that obedience to the law wasn't necessary for salvation for Gentiles) then it would have said the same thing for Jews as well, but there is no such statement.

No, Acts 15 deals simply with the question to observe or not to observe.

 

[Meowzltov]

Telling a man to carry a bed is at minimum equal to carrying sticks on the Sabbath

It is lawful to carry within a home. Furthermore, a walled city is considered a large home, and carrying is permitted. This is why a Jew who lives within an eruv can carry house keys to synagogue, but a Jew who does not live within an eruv cannot carry keys. This is why I think that Christians need to study Jewish law before getting into these sorts of discussions. It's so easy to make mistakes.

 

[Meowzltov]

The prohibition against doing work on the Sabbath is not about lying in bed all day being afraid to move a muscle, about being afraid to get dressed because that will involve lifting and carrying clothes, or about being afraid to lift food to your mouth, but rather it is about ceasing from our labor, or our business, or from what profits us, and thereby demonstrating our faith in God to provide for our needs.

With the authority given them in Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the Judges determined that "labor" referred to those activities needed to build the Tabernacle, since such labor ceased on the Sabbath. These labors are divided into 39 categories called melachot. There are many labors forbidden on shabbat that have nothing to do with profit. Gathering wood to make a fire to cook food resulted in a death sentence. Your idea that Shabbat is to remember that God provides for our needs is a nice interpretation, but it's not really scriptural. Shabbat is to recall that God rested after creation and that he delivered us (the children of Israel) from Egypt.

 

[Meowzltov]

The Old Testament repeatedly illustrates God's people shunning rule under those who are not of God. Modern churches discourage the preaching and study of this even though it's very obvious that God's people are to turn away from rulers who do not obey God's laws, such as the Modern Babylon that's in place in America.

Israel is a People, a nation, mostly determined by birth but also receiving converts (adopting new members into the People). We are a People set apart even when we were in Egypt, or Babylon, or part of Rome. I am an American citizen, but I am still "part of the Tribe" as we like to say it. Christians are not a distinct ethnicity. Christians are catholic in that they are from every nation, people, and tribe around the world. I hope you aren't saying that in a democratic State that Christians should not participate in our government.

 

[Meowzltov]

You know law quite well. Kudos!

Not as well as he should if he wants to talk about it authoritatively.

 

[Stillicidia]

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[thecolorsblend]

Yes. Of course there is the "One Law" movement which is run by Gentiles who believe everyone should follow the Law. But they are miniscule, and certainly not part of mainstream MJ (UMJC and MJAA). For that reason, I no longer go into the MJ forum here.

I don't know very many MJ's. And certainly I'm not bashing on anybody on CF. Such a thing would be beneath me. Obviously.

But the Gentile MJ's I've run into (not on CF) have been a rather interesting bunch. Very much into conspiracy theories, very prone to apocalyptic/End Timey views of current events and overall they seem very unstable. There's really no ending to that so I'll wrap this up by saying "burritos with extra cheese".

 

[Meowzltov]

Torah is made by the jews who were against Jesus. They neglect their very own old testament in regard of jesus. They are biased, uninspired, stubborn, and unruly. The whole of the Torah only reflects their bias, and uninspired nonsense, and so there is no truth to be had from within the pages.

Torah is the first five books of the Bible.

I think you must have meant Talmud. The Talmud is a recording of Rabbinical arguments that led to decisions on the interpretation of Torah. That Oral Tradition began back in Moses day with Deuteronomy 17:8-13 giving authority to the levites and judges (the sanhedrin) to interpret Torah, and anyone disobeying them was to be put to death. Jesus backed up the authority of the Rabbis to rule on Torah in Matthew 23:3 "Do everything they tell you..." that would include their teachings on Oral Torah as well. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus instructs the Pharisees to observe BOTH the Torah (seeking justice, etc.) and the Oral Torah (the spice tax). Jesus' words are full of allusions to Oral Torah (which you would recognize right away if you were a Jew); for example, "Let your yes be yes and your no be no" is Jesus quoting Oral Torah.

I would be very very careful what I say about Rabbinical Jews. The only reason they do not accept Christ is God is veiling their eyes-- it is not choice on their part. As Paul states, "Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises." Sounds like Paul is saying they deserve some respect. If they are biased, stubborn, and unruly, SO ARE CHRISTIANS. Although enemies of the Gospel for YOUR SAKE, when it comes to election (salvation) they are loved for the sake of the patriarchs. Romans 11:28

 

[Stillicidia]

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[Meowzltov]

But the Gentile MJ's I've run into (not on CF) have been a rather interesting bunch. Very much into conspiracy theories, very prone to apocalyptic/End Timey views of current events and overall they seem very unstable.

There are certain areas of Christianity that seem more this way, and you have spotted one of them. Of course that is not to say that ALL Messianic Gentile are like that (I've known really down to earth MG's that just want to observe Torah). Just that it seems to be a common thing.

 

[Stillicidia]

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