What's up with Torah-observance?

[Meowzltov]

I do not believe that the vast majority of Christians are bound by the Torah laws. I am a little uncertain about Jews who convert, as it seems that the Early Church Jews who converted still kept the Torah laws. However...... I do part with 99+% of Christians on one point. If someone is born a Jew and converts, then I would say that he is still bound to keep the Passover feast, for God commanded the Jews to keep said feast unto the end of their generations, as an ordinance forever. He did NOT say, "keep this passover feast until the coming of the Messiah". No, He said "unto the end of your generations, as an ordinance forever."

Great post.

 

[Meowzltov]

There are two jurisdictions on the land. Most default to the "democracy". I choose the Republic, which the Declaration intended.

Why do you have to choose?

 

[Meowzltov]

He knows the ingredients of a True Bill, and that's more than most people in this forum.

What are you talking about? What does 'a bill' have to does with Mosaic Law?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The Torah is the way to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct (Romans 7:12), not the way to become holy, righteous, and good. We are not to do what is righteous in order to become righteous, but because God has declared us to be righteous or because we are being saved from doing what is unrighteous. We are saved by grace through faith not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them (Ephesians 2:8-10) and it is OT Scripture that is God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16). What God's grace brings in these verse is a description of what our salvation looks like:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

So our salvation from sin involves being redeemed from our sinful or lawless actions through Jesus dying on the cross, but it also involves us being trained to do what God has revealed to be godly, righteous, and good, and being trained to renounce doing what God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless.

But the righteous live by faith, being righteous by the law is impossible, much less being holy. The bible says this. I do not comprehend the above post.

 

[Soyeong]

But the righteous live by faith, being righteous by the law is impossible, much less being holy. The bible says this. I do not comprehend the above post.

I completely agree that the righteous are to live by faith and that becoming righteous through obeying God's instructions is impossible. However, living by faith is about demonstrating that you trust God by living in obedience to His instructions, so it does not refer to living in some other manner that is not in obedience to His instructions. In Hebrews 11, we have a number of examples of people who demonstrated their faith by obeying God's instructions. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, being careful to obey God's instructions was about demonstrating their faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them out of Egypt, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to give to their fathers, about demonstrating their faith in God that His instructions are for their own good, and about demonstrating their faith in God to preserve them, so righteousness has never come by the law, but has always come by faith. In Deuteronomy 10:13, God again said that what He command was for our own good, so if you believe God and trust that to be true, then living by faith is demonstrated by living in obedience to His commands.

So it is not obedience to the law that causes us to become righteous, but rather it is our faith in God that does that and our faith that also leads us to become obedient to the law. When God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, he is declaring us to be someone whose vocation is to train or practice in righteousness by grace through faith (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), which again refers to the training that God's grace brings in Titus 2:11-14. God has imputed His righteousness to us so that we will do what He has revealed to be righteous and He saved us by faith through grace from doing what He has revealed in His law to be sin so that we will be free to do what he has revealed to be good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We have been set free from slavery to what God has revealed to be sin in order to be free to become slaves of obedience leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:16-19). Our sanctification is about being made to be like Messiah in also doing what God has revealed in His law to be holy, righteous, and good, like he did. When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made live in complete obedience to God's law (Philippians 1:6). The problem with the Old Covenant was not with God's law, but with the hardness of our hearts, so God's plan was to make a New Covenant where he would take away our hard heart, give us hearts of flesh, write His law on our hearts so that we will obey it, and send His Spirit to cause us to obey His law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). The law requires obedience and Jesus gave himself so that we might be free to obey the law and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). God is purifying a people for Himself who are zealous for what he has revealed to be good works. God's plan was not to lower His righteous standard, but to make us into people who could meet it by grace through faith.

 

[Dkh587]

I completely agree that the righteous are to live by faith and that becoming righteous through obeying God's instructions is impossible. However, living by faith is about demonstrating that you trust God by living in obedience to His instructions, so it does not refer to living in some other manner that is not in obedience to His instructions. In Hebrews 11, we have a number of examples of people who demonstrated their faith by obeying God's instructions. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, being careful to obey God's instructions was about demonstrating their faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them out of Egypt, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to give to their fathers, about demonstrating their faith in God that His instructions are for their own good, and about demonstrating their faith in God to preserve them, so righteousness has never come by the law, but has always come by faith. In Deuteronomy 10:13, God again said that what He command was for our own good, so if you believe God and trust that to be true, then living by faith is demonstrated by living in obedience to His commands.

So it is not obedience to the law that causes us to become righteous, but rather it is our faith in God that does that and that also leads us to become obedient to the law. When God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, he is declaring us to be someone who trains or practices in righteousness by grace through faith (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), which again refers to the training that God's grace brings in Titus 2:11-14. God has imputed His righteousness to us so that we will do what He has revealed to be righteous and he saved us by faith through grace from doing what he has revealed to be sin in His law so that we will be free to do what he has revealed to be good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We have been set free from slavery to what God has revealed to be sin in order to be free to become slaves of obedience leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:16-19). Our sanctification is about being made to be like Messiah in also doing what God has revealed in his law to be holy, righteous, and good, like he did. When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made live in complete obedience to God's law (Philippians 1:6). The problem with the Old Covenant was not with God's law, but with the hardness of our hearts, so God made a New Covenant where he would take away our hard heart, give us hearts of flesh, write His law on our hearts so that we will obey it, and send His Spirit to cause us to obey His law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). The law requires obedience and Jesus gave himself so that we might obey the law and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). God's plan was not to lower His righteous standard, but to make us into people who could meet it by grace through faith.

HalleluYah!

 

[Meowzltov]

But the righteous live by faith, being righteous by the law is impossible, much less being holy.

It's not faith alone. Faith alone is dead.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I completely agree that the righteous are to live by faith and that becoming righteous through obeying God's instructions is impossible. However, living by faith is about demonstrating that you trust God by living in obedience to His instructions, so it does not refer to living in some other manner that is not in obedience to His instructions. In Hebrews 11, we have a number of examples of people who demonstrated their faith by obeying God's instructions. In Deuteronomy 6:20-25, being careful to obey God's instructions was about demonstrating their faith in God to defeat Pharaoh, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them out of Egypt, demonstrating their faith in God to bring them to the land that He swore to give to their fathers, about demonstrating their faith in God that His instructions are for their own good, and about demonstrating their faith in God to preserve them, so righteousness has never come by the law, but has always come by faith. In Deuteronomy 10:13, God again said that what He command was for our own good, so if you believe God and trust that to be true, then living by faith is demonstrated by living in obedience to His commands.

So it is not obedience to the law that causes us to become righteous, but rather it is our faith in God that does that and our faith that also leads us to become obedient to the law. When God declares us to be righteous by grace through faith, he is declaring us to be someone whose vocation is to train or practice in righteousness by grace through faith (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), which again refers to the training that God's grace brings in Titus 2:11-14. God has imputed His righteousness to us so that we will do what He has revealed to be righteous and He saved us by faith through grace from doing what He has revealed in His law to be sin so that we will be free to do what he has revealed to be good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We have been set free from slavery to what God has revealed to be sin in order to be free to become slaves of obedience leading to righteousness, and slaves of righteousness leading to sanctification (Romans 6:16-19). Our sanctification is about being made to be like Messiah in also doing what God has revealed in His law to be holy, righteous, and good, like he did. When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made live in complete obedience to God's law (Philippians 1:6). The problem with the Old Covenant was not with God's law, but with the hardness of our hearts, so God's plan was to make a New Covenant where he would take away our hard heart, give us hearts of flesh, write His law on our hearts so that we will obey it, and send His Spirit to cause us to obey His law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27). The law requires obedience and Jesus gave himself so that we might be free to obey the law and thereby meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). God is purifying a people for Himself who are zealous for what he has revealed to be good works. God's plan was not to lower His righteous standard, but to make us into people who could meet it by grace through faith.

Semi-catholic in reasoning, so at least christian sounding. Better job at explaining this time.

I continue to look at it differently of course.

 

[Basil the Great]

Looking at Paul's letters seems to lead most to think that we are saved by faith alone. However, a careful look at the Gospels shows that Jesus placed as much importance to deeds as faith, if not even more. I have been a life-long Protestant, but I think I have have pretty much always agreed with the Catholic and Orthodox position that we are saved by faith and good works, not just by our faith. Luther had many good points when he started the Reformation, especially regarding the sale of indulgences, but his doctrine of faith alone does not meet up with my reading of the Gospels. Perhaps I should repeat what the Anglican Father recently said on the Anglican board re: his comments about the Blessed Mother? "I guess this does not make me a very good Protestant"..... Oh well, so be it. I call them as I see them.

Mathew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Matthew 25:34-46 - "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me."

"The the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and come to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

"They will also answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

"He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

"Then they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Soyeong]

I have have pretty much always agreed with the Catholic and Orthodox position that we are saved by faith and good works, not just by our faith.

Our actions reflect our beliefs, so if someone has faith in God about how they should live, then they will live according to His instructions. However, it is not obeying God's instructions that saves us, but having a faith that leads us to obey His instructions is what saves us.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I am a Christian, not a Jew; thus I observe the moral law of the Torah, but not the ceremonial law; instead, as a Christian I follow the instructions of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and the Canon Law of the Orthodox Church.

... but have no thing against idolatry. Picture upper left hand corner.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am a Christian, not a Jew; thus I observe the moral law of the Torah, but not the ceremonial law; instead, as a Christian I follow the instructions of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and the Canon Law of the Orthodox Church.

Is avoiding sex during a woman's menstruation a moral or ceremonial law? What about resting on the Sabbath, and if so, what exactly does that mean and how do you know? What about circumcision on the eighth day? What about binding the laws on the arm and forehead (teffilin)? What about writing the laws on the doorposts of your home (mezuzah)? How about that a widow whose husband died childless must not be married to anyone but her deceased husband's brother? How about not castrating your cat or dog? What about not to borrow on interest? I could go on...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Tell me why or why not you believe it.

WE have the Bible, and the Jewish writings obviously didn't do anything for the Jews except lead them to MISS their time of visitation. SO who needs it?????

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Tell me why or why not you believe it.

Can the branches do differently than the vine they grow from ?

 

[Meowzltov]

Can the branches do differently than the vine they grow from ?

I know that Anabaptists take their inspiration for right behavior from the whole Torah, yet don't practice all of the 613 laws. Can you explain some of this for us?

 

[sparow]

Can the branches do differently than the vine they grow from ?

Using branches and vines as metaphors for family there are many variables and assumptions. Were the Pharisees a branch of Israel; if branch requires they overcome or are in covenant with God, then no, murderers, thieves etc., are not in covenant with God and are therefore not a branch.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

In case of straight Judaism it's simply adherence to the literal text of the Torah. Unless one is part of Liberal Judaism or something.

In the case of Messianics It seems like an attempt to reread the New Testament in light of Pharsaic Judaism which makes law the centre and focus of all things. Instead of Christ at the centre illuminating the Law, Christ is illuminated by the Law.

 

[sparow]

I know that Anabaptists take their inspiration for right behavior from the whole Torah, yet don't practice all of the 613 laws. Can you explain some of this for us?

I believe we may have discussed this before; Jesus has said the Law may not change; in the new covenant the Levitical priesthood is discontinued and replacing it is a new priesthood with Jesus as High Priest, and the 12 apostles and everyone else who enters into the covenant are priests; the same Law are applied to the new covenant as the old though the application is different.

The fact that the Pharisees divided 613 laws from scripture only shows they wanted to be legalist instead of living a Holy life which does not require a known number of laws but the ability to discern right from wrong as infinite life presents it self, with the Law as a guide.

 

[Meowzltov]

In the case of Messianics It seems like an attempt to reread the New Testament in light of Pharsaic Judaism which makes law the centre and focus of all things. Instead of Christ at the centre illuminating the Law, Christ is illuminated by the Law.

I am a Messianic Jew and I consider Christ the center, not the Law.

I believe you are doing a great disservice to MJ by mischaracterizing it. However, I'm assuming you are doing so innocently enough. It is difficult to understand things we are not used to -- we have a given set of categories, and when we run across something new, we tend to shove it into one of our boxes even though it doesn't fit. Traditional Christians are raised with the idea that there is (box 1) grace and (box 2) law/legalism. When they encounter MJ's it's obvious which box they want to shove us into, rather than create a whole new box-- after all that takes study and work.

Anyhow, my humble request is that you keep your mind open, listen very carefully to us, ask questions, and be open to the idea that maybe you have to create a new category.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus gave no indication that was he was in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather he said he came only to do the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so there is no difference between the law of Christ, the law of the Father, and the law of the Spirit. Jesus taught nothing that was brand new or took away from the OT, but only taught how to correctly understand and follow the God's law. Jesus said nothing about editing God's law or teaching a brand new law, but rather he said that not the least part of the law would disappear and warned those (like you) who would relax the least command or teach others to do the same (Matthew 5:17-19).

Christ came to do the Father's will, which was to be a sacrifice for the sins of all. That is the plan BEFORE the earth was created.

Christ was not just walking around clueless.

Christ knew exactly what His teachings were and they are not about the will of the Father as in the way you are putting it, as if Christ did not know. Of course Christ knew, He is God Himself. How could He not know.

That is why Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Because they were on the same page. Both God. Jesus teachings were definately His Own. The Father and the Holy Spirit. If there was not a concensus and sameness to Truth, then it would not be Truth.