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Featured What's up with Torah-observance?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Vine and Branches, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Vine and Branches

    Vine and Branches Messianic-believer

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    Tell me why or why not you believe it.
     
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  2. timewerx

    timewerx the village i--o--t--

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    There are standing contradictions to the Gospel, so no way for me.
     
  3. Vine and Branches

    Vine and Branches Messianic-believer

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    But the Word of YHWH cannot contradict.
     
  4. Hillsage

    Hillsage One for Him and Him for all Supporter

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    We do not have 'that word'...according to scripture anyway.

    Jeremiah 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD/Jehovah is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

    So what changes now? Is it your theology, or do you just scratch out the "Word" above?
     
  5. Vine and Branches

    Vine and Branches Messianic-believer

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    Matthew 15:6 KJV - "And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition."

    What Jeremiah 8:8 means is exactly what Messiah was talking about. The scribes would pervert Torah. The Torah itself is not a lie because of this:

    Psalm 119:142 KJV - "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."
     
  6. daq

    daq Messianic

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    The Council members were scribes and lawyers, (soferim) responsible for interpreting the Torah for the people and the land, (especially in civil disputes and criminal cases). This also is likely one of the primary reasons why they were against the teachings of Yeshua; for he taught as one having authority, meaning he neither cited nor adhered to their authority when he taught the people, (except in cases where their judgment was correct). The same is the main reason why he was at first charged as a mesith, that is, one who leads a city, town, or the whole nation astray, (meaning astray from the teachings of the elders, scribes, and Sanhedrin rulings). There were different types of scribes; some were letter counters and copyists, others wrote legal rulings but not without citations from the fathers who came before them. The comment, "traditions of the elders" is another example of the same; the elders were the committee of ten which sat above the rest of the council, (excepting of course the two Chief Priests, the Ab Bet Din and the Nasiy, but the elders could indeed remove the Nasiy Kohen Gadol if need be).
     
  7. Vine and Branches

    Vine and Branches Messianic-believer

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    Yes, exactly! :)
     
  8. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    I do not adhere to Torah observance personally. I do my best to keep the commandments of the Messianic Covenant, but not the Mosaic. My reasoning is, the Law of Moses was meant to be kept as a whole. It is One Law.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2016
  9. Wgw

    Wgw Pray For Brussels!

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    I am a Christian, not a Jew; thus I observe the moral law of the Torah, but not the ceremonial law; instead, as a Christian I follow the instructions of the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 and the Canon Law of the Orthodox Church.
     
  10. Shempster

    Shempster ImJustMe Supporter

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    I have a few friends who believe that we should obey Torah. Just like EVERY other issue, topic or doctrine in this world, there are 2 sides to it (actually there can be many facets of truth)

    It is absolutely TRUE that we must obey the law or we will not be counted worthy. The fine print says though: the law that must be observed is not the old Torah but the NEW LAW that Jesus gave us. To love God and others as ourselves.

    Case closed. We MUST obey the law.
     
  11. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I am Torah observant because it is holy, righteous, and good, it is obedient to God's character, and it is in accordance with the example that that Jesus set for us to follow.
     
  12. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which laws we should follow, but rather he said he came only to do the Father's will (John 6:38) and that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father (John 7:16), so there is no difference between the law of Christ and the law of the Father and the law of the Spirit. Jesus taught nothing that was brand new, but only taught how to correctly understand and follow the God's law. Jesus said nothing about editing God's law or teaching a brand new law, but rather he said that not the least part of the law would disappear and warned those who would relax the least command or teach others to do the same (Matthew 5:17-19). You would do well to heed his warning as your friends do.
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The Torah is a revelation of God's holy, righteous, and good character, so obeying it about identifying with God, not about identifying with Jews. We must obey God rather than man, so if God said to do something and the Jerusalem Council said not to obey God, then we should obey God instead, but it doesn't come down to that because the Jerusalem Council never tried to countermand God when Acts 15 is correctly understood. The Bible does not use the categories of moral or ceremonial laws, but rather disobedience to any of God's laws was considered a sin and immoral.
     
  14. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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  15. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    "Judaizers" was a term first coined and used by the heretic Marcion. It did not refer to those who were trying to get Gentiles to obey God's law, nor did Paul mean that when he used the word, but rather means "to adopt Jewish customs and rights, one who observes the ritual law of the Jews". It has to with someone who was trying to make Gentiles live as a Jew and become a Jew, and having him keep all of the customs of the Jewish people. They want the perspective person to live exactly as they do, keeping God's law in the same manner as they do in order to be saved. It has nothing to do with the Torah except for the fact that Jewish customs were bound up in decisions made about it.

    If you do away with the Torah, then you do away with sin, which means that you don't need grace, which means that you don't need a savior, which means that you don't need a Gospel.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  16. random person

    random person 1 COR. 10:11; HEB. 1:2; HEB. 9:26,28; 1 PET. 1:20

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    wrong!

    read galatians 3:10-14
     
  17. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

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    The New Testament apostles teach us what sin is. Christ commissioned them to do so.
     
  18. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure how Galatians 3:10-14 goes against anything I said about judaizers. In any case, the phrase "works of the law" should actually be translated "works of law" because there is no definitive article in the Greek, and it is used to refer to any works of law and specifically not God's law, as Qumran Text 4QMMT shows. Essentially, various Jewish groups, such as the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Essenes, had their own traditions or customs or works of law that they that people had to obey in order to be saved. For example, Acts 10:28 refers to it being against their law to visit or associate with Gentiles, the group in Acts 15:1 was wanting to require all Gentiles to follow their customs in order to be saved, and this is the same issue that Paul was arguing against in Galatians. He contrasted the works of the law with the Book of the Law, which is God's Law, because God's Law speaks about faith, and relying on man-made traditions does not involve faith, so by doing so they were breaking the Book of the Law and were under a curse. We should not rely on the Book of the Law either, but rather it is God's instructions for how the righteous are to live by faith. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law so that we would be free from condemnation and to follow his example of doing what is righteous by faith in accordance with the law.
     
  19. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    The law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin is (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Everything that the NT says about sin is in perfect accordance with everything that the OT says about sin. Christ commissioned them not to go redefine "sin", but to go make disciples, or in other words, people whose goal it is to learn how to think and act like him by following his example.
     
  20. Extraneous

    Extraneous Well-Known Member

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    The apostles don't redefine sin. Everything that is sin in the NT is also sin in the OT. THe difference however is that not everything that was sin in the OT is sin in the NT. For example, look at food purity laws in the OT, those no longer define sin. Perhaps it could be said that the difference is that Israel was a theocracy living in an ancient pagan world, and the kingdom of Christ is not a theocracy at all, but its actually the complete opposite of a theocracy. It may go a lot deeper than that but that may be a good starting point for understanding i guess.

    Perhaps Israel was the "natural" version of what God intended, which is "spiritual".
     
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