Soyeong

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Some kind of Torah observance as a devotional exercise might be beneficial for some people. I personally have no interest in that (at least not right now but you never know what the future may bring) but Acts 15 speaks so clearly as to be unambiguous about this. Gentiles are not bound to Torah. That's good news because I ate pepperoni pizza today.

We must obey God rather than man so you should be careful not to mistake something that was against obeying man as being against obeying God. Furthermore, the way we are instructed to tell if someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for God is if they teach God's people against obeying any of God's commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so according to your interpretation of Acts 15, you should consider them to be false prophets and should obey God instead. However, when Acts 15 is correctly understood, then we only speaking against obey man, not against anyone obeying God.

The topic of Acts 15 is stated in the first verse, namely that a group of Jews were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised and live according to the customs of Moses in order to become saved. God's law does not require all Gentiles everywhere to become circumcised nor does it require anyone to become circumcised in order to become saved, but rather that requirement was according to the man-made customs of Moses, so by rejecting this requirement, the Jerusalem Council was actually upholding God's law. When we are careful to rightly divide God's word, we will see that they always upheld God's law and never spoke against anyone obeying it.

God said that what He commanded was for His people's own good (Deuteronomy 10:13), David and Paul delighted in obeying God's law (Psalms 1:1-2), and Paul said that our faith upholds God's law (Romans 3:31), so it shouldn't be something you consider good news that you don't have to obey, but rather you should consider it to be good news that you get to obey it because you have been redeemed from lawlessness (Titus 2:14).
 
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Soyeong

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Do you eat steak? I bet it it has Blood in it, do you bow Dow and prey to statues of saints?... so even if you believe that Acts 15 teaches that the gentiles only have to do 4 things (which it doesn't) you don't even do that. By your logic the Gentiles can go ahead stealing, lying, murdering ect ect simply because those things are not listed in in Acts 15... do you see how wrong this interpretation is??

Animals are drained of hemoglobin before they are sold on the market, but still contain myoglobin. Many people would salt the meat in order to draw out the myoglobin, but I think the command not to eat blood refers to hemoglobin because the Passover Lamb would been eaten soon after it was killed without having time to salt the meat. So I don't think there is anything wrong with eating steaks.

 
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Soyeong

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Gentiles were under God's law, just not mosaic law. Gentiles are under what is sometimes referred to as Natural Law. It is a smaller subset of Mosaic law -- it is that part which is universal -- don't murder, don't steal, don't have sex with your mother. Natural law doesn't include those things only for Israel such as the kosher laws or time specific laws.

God's law is the Mosaic law. The law that Gentiles are not under according to Romans 6:14 is the one where sin and death have dominion, so they are not under the law of sin and death, which is the opposite of God's law. Gentiles are told to have a holy conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16), which refers to things that are not part of Natural Law.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Furthermore, the way we are instructed to tell if someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for God is if they teach God's people against obeying any of God's commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so according to your interpretation of Acts 15, you should consider them to be false prophets and should obey God instead.
I'm not a prophet. I don't claim to be a prophet. I've read several posts in those thread and don't recall anybody else claiming to be a prophet either. So I think we're good on this whole "false prophet" thing, thanks.

Back to my pepperoni pizza now...
 
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Soyeong

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I'm not a prophet. I don't claim to be a prophet. I've read several posts in those thread and don't recall anybody else claiming to be a prophet either. So I think we're good on this whole "false prophet" thing, thanks.

Back to my pepperoni pizza now...

Sorry for not being clearer. I was not saying you or anyone else in this thread was claiming to be a prophet, but rather the "them" I was referring to was the people talking in Acts 15. A prophet is a messenger of God, so we can be confident that anyone who speaks against obeying God's commands is not speaking for God. If you think that any of the writers of the NT spoke against obeying any of God's commands, then you should either reconsider your interpretation or consider them to be false prophets who were not speaking for God, thus you should disregard what they said and obey God instead.
 
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Do you eat steak? I bet it it has Blood in it, do you bow Dow and prey to statues of saints?... so even if you believe that Acts 15 teaches that the gentiles only have to do 4 things (which it doesn't) you don't even do that. By your logic the Gentiles can go ahead stealing, lying, murdering ect ect simply because those things are not listed in in Acts 15... do you see how wrong this interpretation is??

On the other hand Jesus never kept the Torah he broke the Sabbath told people not to Stone somebody caught in adultery and told us that it's not what goes into a man that defiles him but that which comes out of him.
 
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Soyeong

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On the other hand Jesus never kept the Torah he broke the Sabbath told people not to Stone somebody caught in adultery and told us that it's not what goes into a man that defiles him but that which comes out of him.

It is a central part of Christian theology that Jesus was sinless, which means that he kept the Torah perfectly, so if you think that he broke the Sabbath, then you should think that he was just another sinner who was in as much need of a Savior from his sin as the rest of us. Furthermore, the way that the Bible instructs us to tell that someone is a false prophet is if they teach God's people against obeying His commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so if you think Jesus taught against obeying God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be a false prophet. Likewise, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's commands (Deuteronomy 4:2), so if you think he tried to subtract God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be just another sinner who could not even save himself much less anyone else.

However, according to the Pharisees, if you didn't obey their traditions for how to keep the Sabbath, then you were breaking it, so while Jesus certainly broke their traditions, he never broke the Sabbath as it was intended to be followed. In regard to Mark 7, the topic of conversation was that you could be defiled by eating kosher food with unwashed hands and Jesus was simply denying that to be the case. His statement in Matthew 15:20 shows that at the end of the conversation he was still talking about not being defiled by eating with unwashed hands, so he never jumped topics from speaking against a man-made ritual purity law to speaking against obeying God. In John 8:1-12, we have another example of Jesus following the law rather than breaking it. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:5), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.
 
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Some kind of Torah observance as a devotional exercise might be beneficial for some people. I personally have no interest in that (at least not right now but you never know what the future may bring) but Acts 15 speaks so clearly as to be unambiguous about this. Gentiles are not bound to Torah. That's good news because I ate pepperoni pizza today.
You are correct.
 
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Is following Messiah's example just for the Jews now?
When it came to Jewish law, Jesus was a Jew and preached to Jews. If you want to know how Gentiles are supposed to do it, you go to Acts 15, where it states they do not need to become Jews or observe the Mosaic law.
 
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thecolorsblend

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What about Messianic Jews?
Heh, good point. I swear to have read remarks from MJ leaders which say that Gentiles mostly belong outside Messianic congregations. Don't get me wrong, I've always found Messianic Judaism interesting. Not persuasive; but interesting. But to the limited degree I give it credence at all (which isn't much), it's for jews rather than Gentiles and it seems at least a few MJ leaders agree on that.
 
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It is a central part of Christian theology that Jesus was sinless, which means that he kept the Torah perfectly, so if you think that he broke the Sabbath, then you should think that he was just another sinner who was in as much need of a Savior from his sin as the rest of us. Furthermore, the way that the Bible instructs us to tell that someone is a false prophet is if they teach God's people against obeying His commands (Deuteronomy 13:4-6), so if you think Jesus taught against obeying God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be a false prophet. Likewise, it is a sin to add to or subtract from God's commands (Deuteronomy 4:2), so if you think he tried to subtract God's dietary laws, then you should consider him to be just another sinner who could not even save himself much less anyone else.

However, according to the Pharisees, if you didn't obey their traditions for how to keep the Sabbath, then you were breaking it, so while Jesus certainly broke their traditions, he never broke the Sabbath as it was intended to be followed. In regard to Mark 7, the topic of conversation was that you could be defiled by eating kosher food with unwashed hands and Jesus was simply denying that to be the case. His statement in Matthew 15:20 shows that at the end of the conversation he was still talking about not being defiled by eating with unwashed hands, so he never jumped topics from speaking against a man-made ritual purity law to speaking against obeying God. In John 8:1-12, we have another example of Jesus following the law rather than breaking it. There was no judge to pronounce a sentence (Deuteronomy 19:17-21), there was no man accused (Leviticus 20:10), he didn't have any witnesses to examine (Numbers 35:30, Deuteronomy 19:5), and he did not have a confession, so if he had condemned her, then he would have acted in violation of the law. Just a few verses later Jesus said that he judged no one (John 8:15) and he also said that he came not to judge (John 12:47), so he did not exercise authority as a magistrate and did not condemn her, but he did recognize her action as sin, and told her to go and sin no more.


The problem is with your theology not mine:

Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Did Jesus work on the Sabbath day? Did he tell the man to do something that would have gotten the man killed in Moses day? Yes, did you not read how a man carried sticks on the Sabbath and was stoned for it?

Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 15:37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
Num 15:41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

You still think Jesus kept the Sabbath?

Hear again how Jesus broke the Sabbath:

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Joh 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Joh 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
Joh 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Joh 9:10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
Joh 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
Joh 9:12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
Joh 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
Joh 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.


Do you not understand that the laws of the old covenant are not what Jesus lived by? How can you be a follower of Christ and not understand what I am talking about?
 
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Moxie123

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Tell me why or why not you believe it.

I like the Old Testament because it spells out truth in law that most churches cannot touch because of they are creatures of the State and their first allegiance is to the State, not God.

The Old Testament repeatedly illustrates God's people shunning rule under those who are not of God. Modern churches discourage the preaching and study of this even though it's very obvious that God's people are to turn away from rulers who do not obey God's laws, such as the Modern Babylon that's in place in America.

Old Testament also describes the nature of how Yahweh's thinks. Characters demonstrate both obedience and disobedience to Yahweh's laws and we learn what to do and not to do.

Many maxims of law come from the Old Testament.
 
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Soyeong

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The problem is with your theology not mine:

Joh 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
Joh 5:10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
Joh 5:11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
Joh 5:12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
Joh 5:13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


Did Jesus work on the Sabbath day? Did he tell the man to do something that would have gotten the man killed in Moses day? Yes, did you not read how a man carried sticks on the Sabbath and was stoned for it?

Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 15:37 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
Num 15:39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
Num 15:40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
Num 15:41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

You still think Jesus kept the Sabbath?

Hear again how Jesus broke the Sabbath:

Joh 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
Joh 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
Joh 9:6 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
Joh 9:7 And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
Joh 9:8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
Joh 9:9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Joh 9:10 Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
Joh 9:11 He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
Joh 9:12 Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
Joh 9:13 They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
Joh 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Joh 9:15 Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
Joh 9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

The Pharisees saying the reason why they wanted to kill him was that he broke the Sabbath is not at all the same thing as saying that he broke the Sabbath. For example, if a man were framed for murder and executed, then the reason that the executioners had executing him was that he had committed murder, but it is nevertheless not the case that he actually committed murder, they just thought he did. Jesus did not keep the traditions of the Pharisees, so from their perspective he broke the Sabbath, and that was their reason they had for wanting to kill him, but Jesus nevertheless did not actually break the Sabbath according to how it was intended to be kept.

The prohibition against doing work on the Sabbath is not about lying in bed all day being afraid to move a muscle, about being afraid to get dressed because that will involve lifting and carrying clothes, or about being afraid to lift food to your mouth, but rather it is about ceasing from our labor, or our business, or from what profits us, and thereby demonstrating our faith in God to provide for our needs. So someone could pick up sticks on the Sabbath because they lacked faith in God to provide for their needs, but that is not the only reason that someone could have for picking up sticks. Similarly, if someone were getting paid to go around and pick up abandoned mats, then doing so on the Sabbath would demonstrate a lack of faith, but simply picking up your mat because that is what you were carried in on would not be demonstrating that.

Do you not understand that the laws of the old covenant are not what Jesus lived by? How can you be a follower of Christ and not understand what I am talking about?

How did the Israelites know what things were sin? When Jesus told people to repent from their sins, how did they know what things they were supposed to repent of doing? The Mosaic law given to reveal our sin and without it we wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7), it is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Jesus was born a Jew under the law (Galatians 4:4) and was circumcised on the 8th day into the Mosaic Covenant (Luke 2:21), so the fact that he was sinless means that he gave a perfect example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic law, and as his followers, we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:3-6).
 
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Soyeong

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When it came to Jewish law, Jesus was a Jew and preached to Jews. If you want to know how Gentiles are supposed to do it, you go to Acts 15, where it states they do not need to become Jews or observe the Mosaic law.

As stated in the first verse, Acts 15 is about whether Gentiles are required to become circumcised and obey Jewish customs in order to become saved. God's law does not require all Gentiles everywhere to become circumcised and does not require anyone to become circumcised for the purpose of becoming saved, but rather it is the man-made customs of Moses that required that. So Acts 15 was never about whether Gentiles had to obey God's law, but about whether they had to obey Jewish customs in order to become saved. Following only four laws is a far cry from following Messiah's example and walking in the same way that he walked.
 
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Soyeong

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Torah observance ... I guess if you want to be an ultra orthodox jew ... there's another religion for that ...

In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are not told to have a holy conduct because we are under the Old Covenant or because we should want to be like Jews, but because God is holy, so observing God's commands in the Torah for how to have a holy conduct are about identifying with the holiness of the God that we serve. The same goes for observing God's commands in the Torah for how to have a righteous and good conduct.
 
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Heh, good point. I swear to have read remarks from MJ leaders which say that Gentiles mostly belong outside Messianic congregations. Don't get me wrong, I've always found Messianic Judaism interesting. Not persuasive; but interesting. But to the limited degree I give it credence at all (which isn't much), it's for jews rather than Gentiles and it seems at least a few MJ leaders agree on that.
Yes. Of course there is the "One Law" movement which is run by Gentiles who believe everyone should follow the Law. But they are miniscule, and certainly not part of mainstream MJ (UMJC and MJAA). For that reason, I no longer go into the MJ forum here.
 
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