What's up with Torah-observance?

[ToBeLoved]

I am a Messianic Jew and I consider Christ the center, not the Law.

I believe you are doing a great disservice to MJ by mischaracterizing it. However, I'm assuming you are doing so innocently enough. It is difficult to understand things we are not used to -- we have a given set of categories, and when we run across something new, we tend to shove it into one of our boxes even though it doesn't fit. Traditional Christians are raised with the idea that there is (box 1) grace and (box 2) law/legalism. When they encounter MJ's it's obvious which box they want to shove us into, rather than create a whole new box-- after all that takes study and work.

Anyhow, my humble request is that you keep your mind open, listen very carefully to us, ask questions, and be open to the idea that maybe you have to create a new category.

I think though, that even you have to admit is there is not just one belief among Messianic Jews. No. No. No.

You have the full gammot of beliefs, so I don't really think that anyone is unfair to MJ's because there is no standard to apply, except Christ fits in there somehow in some way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, it is required after salvation, not before.

Huh?

That is not right. Timothy wasn't circumcized and he was considered a Gentile.

 

[Meowzltov]

I think though, that even you have to admit is there is not just one belief among Messianic Jews. No. No. No.

You have the full gammot of beliefs, so I don't really think that anyone is unfair to MJ's because there is no standard to apply, except Christ fits in there somehow in some way.

You are correct in general that what MJ's have in common is a love for Yeshua and Torah. But that is a generalization.

The subject is messianic JEWS, so I'm distingishing Messianic Jews from Messianic Gentiles, especially the One Law and Hebrew Roots Groups. That gives a few more commonalities. For example, I don't know of any MJ's that promote obligatory observance of the Law by gentiles.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You are correct in general that what MJ's have in common is a love for Yeshua and Torah. But that is a generalization.

The subject is messianic JEWS, so I'm distingishing Messianic Jews from Messianic Gentiles, especially the One Law and Hebrew Roots Groups. That gives a few more commonalities. For example, I don't know of any MJ's that promote obligatory observance of the Law by gentiles.

Don't both Messianic Jews and gentiles fall under the Messianic Jew sub category?

I've never heard someone who states they are a Messianic Jew asking the person from there if they are a jew or gentile.

Do they do that?

 

[Meowzltov]

Don't both Messianic Jews and gentiles fall under the Messianic Jew sub category?

I've never heard someone who states they are a Messianic Jew asking the person from there if they are a jew or gentile.

Do they do that?

No, a Messianic Gentile is NOT called a Messianic Jew. Heaven forbid! There are Messianic Gentiles who prefer to simply be called Messianic because they don't like for there to be a distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

Some Messianics attend Messianic Jewish synagogues. Others follow Messianic Synagogues -- notice the absence of the word Jewish. These include the One Law Groups and the Hebrew Roots folks. They may claim to be Messianic Jewish, but they have deviated too far from the original purpose of MJ for that label to be appropriate (most of them know this).

The main objection that MJ's have with them is they believe that Torah observance is obligatory, and especially that it is obligatory for Gentiles. But they are still wonderful people, and their observance is to be applauded -- they are certainly blessed for it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

No, a Messianic Gentile is NOT called a Messianic Jew. Heaven forbid! There are Messianic Gentiles who prefer to simply be called Messianic because they don't like for there to be a distinction between Jews and Gentiles.

Some Messianics attend Messianic Jewish synagogues. Others follow Messianic Synagogues -- notice the absence of the word Jewish. These include the One Law Groups and the Hebrew Roots folks. They may claim to be Messianic Jewish, but they have deviated too far from the original purpose of MJ for that label to be appropriate (most of them know this).

The main objection that MJ's have with them is they believe that Torah observance is obligatory, and especially that it is obligatory for Gentiles. But they are still wonderful people, and their observance is to be applauded -- they are certainly blessed for it.

Interesting. Thanks.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I am a Messianic Jew and I consider Christ the center, not the Law.

I believe you are doing a great disservice to MJ by mischaracterizing it. However, I'm assuming you are doing so innocently enough. It is difficult to understand things we are not used to -- we have a given set of categories, and when we run across something new, we tend to shove it into one of our boxes even though it doesn't fit. Traditional Christians are raised with the idea that there is (box 1) grace and (box 2) law/legalism. When they encounter MJ's it's obvious which box they want to shove us into, rather than create a whole new box-- after all that takes study and work.

Anyhow, my humble request is that you keep your mind open, listen very carefully to us, ask questions, and be open to the idea that maybe you have to create a new category.

Messianic Judaism is hardly monolithic in theme, so perhaps you differ from others in their emphasis. Yet I have seen an emphasis on Law>Christ within the Hebrew roots/Messianic approach to theology. Some for instance wouldn't consider the New Testament scripture on the level of the Torah, only equating it to a commentary on the Torah and a commentary may never supersede the source document much less come to be more important than it. There are also the not so subtle implications behind questions like "Why don't you live like Jesus did? He didn't eat pork so why do you?"

I would ask for some clarification, if you place Christ at the centre, where do you place the law? Is it to the periphery of the circle or very near the centre?

 

[Meowzltov]

Messianic Judaism is hardly monolithic in theme, so perhaps you differ from others in their emphasis. Yet I have seen an emphasis on Law>Christ within the Hebrew roots/Messianic approach to theology. Some for instance wouldn't consider the New Testament scripture on the level of the Torah, only equating it to a commentary on the Torah and a commentary may never supersede the source document much less come to be more important than it. There are also the not so subtle implications behind questions like "Why don't you live like Jesus did? He didn't eat pork so why do you?"

I would ask for some clarification, if you place Christ at the centre, where do you place the law? Is it to the periphery of the circle or very near the centre?

I am so against the Hebrew Roots movement. Why? Because they are Judaizers, meaning that they make all of Torah mandatory for Gentiles, when Acts 15 makes it clear that we are not to do this.

Grace comes first. If grace isn't first, our theology is out of whack.

And yet 1 John makes it clear that keeping the commandments shows our love for God, is a way of knowing God, and is a way of being intimate with God. Jesus himself said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So the question is not whether we should obey God's commandments, but rather WHICH commandments does God want us to obey????? Obviously God does not expect a Gentile to stay kosher.

But what if a Gentile voluntarily chooses to stay kosher out of sheer love for God? It can be a good means of sanctification.

What of Jewish believers? We certainly do not keep the 613 for salvation!!!!! But it is part of our heritage, our Jewish identify. We have as our examples the thousands of Jews in Acts 21:20 who were zealous for Torah, and Paul, who did not violate Jewish law per Acts 25:8. In other words, I'm a Jew, so I do Jewish stuff. Again, it works towards sanctification for me. It is my way to love God, to know God, to be intimate with God, AS A JEW.

 

[Hethatreadethit]

Tell me why or why not you believe it.[/QUOTE

I believe the Word, because I was called by Him. He has revealed many mysteries to me and has kept my soul in safety. He is my hope, and my salvation.

 

[1John2:4]

I am so against the Hebrew Roots movement. Why? Because they are Judaizers, meaning that they make all of Torah mandatory for Gentiles, when Acts 15 makes it clear that we are not to do this.

Grace comes first. If grace isn't first, our theology is out of whack.

And yet 1 John makes it clear that keeping the commandments shows our love for God, is a way of knowing God, and is a way of being intimate with God. Jesus himself said, "If you love me, keep my commandments." So the question is not whether we should obey God's commandments, but rather WHICH commandments does God want us to obey????? Obviously God does not expect a Gentile to stay kosher.

But what if a Gentile voluntarily chooses to stay kosher out of sheer love for God? It can be a good means of sanctification.

What of Jewish believers? We certainly do not keep the 613 for salvation!!!!! But it is part of our heritage, our Jewish identify. We have as our examples the thousands of Jews in Acts 21:20 who were zealous for Torah, and Paul, who did not violate Jewish law per Acts 25:8. In other words, I'm a Jew, so I do Jewish stuff. Again, it works towards sanctification for me. It is my way to love God, to know God, to be intimate with God, AS A JEW.

The Jews and Isreal are to be a light to the Nations? God changes not, rightousness is rightousness. What is the light they are to bring to the nations? If someone has adopted a child and asked that child to only obey 4 out of the 600 house rules would that go well with that child? Would it not make more sense when someone adopts a child and says start by keeping these house rules and you will learn the other rules as you live with us in the house. Just as Ruth and Rahab we're brought in and became apart of Isreal by not keeping there own way but becoming part of the family. God gave the nations the opertunity to partake in God's commandments through Yeshua.

“And He said to me,
‘You are My servant, O Israel,
In whom I will be glorified.’
4 Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain,
I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain;
Yet surely my just reward is with the Lord,
And my work with my God.’”

5 “And now the Lord says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

 

[Meowzltov]

Just as Ruth and Rahab we're brought in and became apart of Isreal by not keeping there own way but becoming part of the family. God gave the nations the opertunity to partake in God's commandments through Yeshua.

Ruth and Rahab were converts, adopted into Israel. That is not the case with those in the Hebrew Roots movement. Have they gone to the Jews and asked for admission into Israel? I thought not.

 

[1John2:4]

Ruth and Rahab were converts, adopted into Israel. That is not the case with those in the Hebrew Roots movement. Have they gone to the Jews and asked for admission into Israel? I thought not.

I thought once we accept Yeshua we are part of Israel, grafted in, as explained by Paul in Romans. We need not convert to Rabbinical Judism then accept Yeshua as was required by the judizers in Acts, God never required that only man required that. We are only supposed to repent from our lawlessness and accept Yeshua to be part of the family/new Covenant not go through some kind of man made rite. God gave the Spirit to the Godly gentiles turning to God. Once we are saved and receive the spirit now we are part of Israel, part of the promise geniology is meaningless. Paul instructed us not to seek such things. We are one family in Yeshua not these guys keep those commandments and these guys keep the other ones. The Jews were to teach the Gentiles coming in the oricicles of God not reject them and sit away from them like Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians. They were to be a light to teach to graft them in make them one one tree that's what happens when you graft a tree it becomes one. The root strengthens the shoot and the shoot strengthens the root.

 

[Meowzltov]

I thought once we accept Yeshua we are part of Israel, grafted in, as explained by Paul in Romans.

We become part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel.

We are wild olive (oleander) grafted onto an olive root. Wild olive is a totally different species than olive. It doesn't become olive simply because it is grafted on.

 

[Meowzltov]

We need not convert to Rabbinical Judism[sic] then accept Yeshua as was required by the judizers[sic] in Acts, God never required that only man required that.

You are absolutely correct. Gentiles do not need to go through a double conversion, get circumcised and become part of Israel, in order to be a believer in Jesus Christ.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I thought once we accept Yeshua we are part of Israel, grafted in, as explained by Paul in Romans. We need not convert to Rabbinical Judism then accept Yeshua as was required by the judizers in Acts, God never required that only man required that. We are only supposed to repent from our lawlessness and accept Yeshua to be part of the family/new Covenant not go through some kind of man made rite. God gave the Spirit to the Godly gentiles turning to God. Once we are saved and receive the spirit now we are part of Israel, part of the promise geniology is meaningless. Paul instructed us not to seek such things. We are one family in Yeshua not these guys keep those commandments and these guys keep the other ones. The Jews were to teach the Gentiles coming in the oricicles of God not reject them and sit away from them like Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians. They were to be a light to teach to graft them in make them one one tree that's what happens when you graft a tree it becomes one. The root strengthens the shoot and the shoot strengthens the root.

Yet James and the council of Jerusalem gave Gentile believers at least four laws to follow. Are these 'man made traditions" as well?

 

[1John2:4]

We become part of the commonwealth of Israel, but not Israel.

We are wild olive (oleander) grafted onto an olive root. Wild olive is a totally different species than olive. It doesn't become olive simply because it is grafted on.

Darling, an oleander is not an olive tree, God created everything to it's own kind you can not graft in two different trees that would be an abomination see the Torah about mixing. Paul never said the gentlies are an oleander he said wild olive, I am unsure where you gleened this theory. Furthermore, Ruth Rahab and the mixed multitude was never expected to go through some kind of conversion ritual at least the Torah and the book of Ruth do not claim such a thing. If the soujouner wanted to keep Passover they needed to become circumsised other than that they all abided by the same instuctions from God through Moses.

 

[Meowzltov]

Yet James and the council of Jerusalem gave Gentile believers at least four laws to follow. Are these 'man made traditions" as well?

Those who know Judaism realize that the Council ruled that Gentiles were to seek the status of God-fearers (righteous Gentiles) aka those who accepted the teachings of Judaism but did not convert and become part of Israel and therefore were not bound by Mosaic Law.

 

[Meowzltov]

you can not graft in two different trees that would be an abomination see the Torah about mixing.

The whole PURPOSE of grafting is to graft two different species together. Didn't you know that????? For example, you can graft a peach branch onto plum roots, and you will get an extra yummy peach because the plum roots are superior.

 

[Meowzltov]

Paul never said the gentlies are an oleander he said wild olive,

Oleander IS wild olive. There is no difference whatsoever in olive that grows in an orchard from an olive that grows untended. I grew up in a new housing track were half the yards had olive trees that were sold dirt cheap back when it was first opened up, and most of the home owners never bothered to take care of them. They were perfectly ordinary olive trees.

 

[1John2:4]

The whole PURPOSE of grafting is to graft two different species together. Didn't you know that????? For example, you can graft a peach branch onto plum roots, and you will get an extra yummy peach because the plum roots are superior.

I don't think so, my mom owns a pecan farm all the trees are grafted it's not pecans with walnuts it's pecans with pecans.

Genisis 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so.

Leviticus 19:19 You shall keep My statutes. You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. You shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.