What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[MezzaMorta]

Catholic food? You talking the bread and the wine or ravolis here? I never heard Italian food as being Catholic lol

This is where the Lord interupts and says I have meat to eat you know not of (heavenly, cellestrial, not of this world) earthly food.

I'm just saying countrys with majority population Catholic have much better food and culture.

 

[MezzaMorta]

No.

But we committed crimes to so it’s pointless (and trust me it will be even more ugly if I bring numbers) to argue who did more evil. In all this, only one thing is good on our side: Serbs never baptized muslims or RC’s while holding them at gunpoint.

nestoj
God helps

Serbs just rounded them up at gunpoint and sent them off to concentration camps to be executed.

 

[Asinner]

I'm just saying countrys with majority population Catholic have much better food and culture.

Certainly this is an unbiased opinion.

Love,
Christina

 

[MezzaMorta]

Wrong on all counts. The Byzantine Empire stopped Islam from spreading into Europe after their rapid expansion in the 7th and 8th centuries. You can thank the Orthodox for that.

The Byzantine Emperors asked the Pope for help in a small amount of knights more or less as mercenaries to help fight the Muslm Turks not to ask them to betray, rape and murder the most Christian city in the world in Constantinople. The actual Crusades did jack squat historically speaking to stop Islam as it had already reached its furtherest expansions with the exception of the eventual fall of Constantinople.

Thats simply not true, the Eastern Empire was on the verge of collapse, Turks had expanded accrost most of it's money generating territory accrost Arabia and had their sights set on what is now Istanbul. Given it had great defenses and would have been a hard city to take, the Turks very well would have eventually taken it, long before 145? when the Ottomans did. The Crusades beat back the Muslims from Europe's doorsteps and delt them a blow that it would take nearly 400 yaers for them to recover from, in which allowed Europe to progress rapidly allowing for the army's of Europe to come to a level which was a capable of repelling the Muslims once they broke though.

The Eastern empire tryed to emulate it's creator, but it never could. At it's strongest times it was a small empire centered around a few strong cities, with a significant amount of tributary citys surrounding it and a strong slave army with a core of professional soilders. But it never reached the power and domination that the Roman Empire/Republic held.

 

[Thekla]

It helps if we know how eachother defines things. Just looking at the issue of praying to saints is evidence of that.

We must, above all else, remember that our unity is in Christ. He needs to be at the center of any and all discussions. This is something I know I need to remember.


God bless
Jay

Indeed ! Christ is absolutely the center -- in EO of "everything".

But to explain from an EO perspective, "which Christ ?" For example, the "gnostic christ" was not also "fully human". "What is not assumed is not saved". Per the understanding of gnosticism then, there is no bodily resurrection. This is clearly countered by the Bible. Therefore, the "gnostic christ" is not Christ.

Further, all the early heresies (like gnosticism) were battled on the ground of what the Church received (literally "handed over in greek), which includes the NT. Dogma was (is) the defense of Christianity based on what she has been given as revelation.

Per "Tradition" as the measure of everything (including the understanding of the Bible), note that the deeper creedal statements on the nature of Christ (and the Trinity) tend to come from the understanding of the Gospel of John. We can see this later, creedal, use of this Gospel as a reflection of Church practice. The Synoptic Gospels all speak of the Kingdom of Heaven "arriving". The prophecies -- healing the sick, casting out demons, are shown as fulfilled in Matthew, Mark and Luke. The Synoptic Gospels (anotherwords, the "information" contained in these) were used for instruction before baptism. The Gospel of John, the "deeper truths" were taught after baptism.

 

[MezzaMorta]

Uh-oh.... LOL

to lay this "myth" to rest, I recommend the following:
Regimen, (400 BC) -possibly authored by Hippocrates

the (culinary) writings of Archestratos (Greek, of Sicily) 350 BC

the culinary writings of Athenaeus (200 AD) which collects ancient recipies (the sources for this are no longer extant) which includes the early use of what is now Phyllo dough used for both meat dishes and nut sweets

IIRC 'Italian' food came about when Rome carried off Greek cooks as slaves.

I’m sure all food of the region has connections to other regions, but the vast majority of Greek food is really just Greek renditions of Turkish food. Most of the early “Greek” city states were in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish culture. It was the heavy influence of southern cultures that created Greece’s cuisine.




Italian food is generally unique, especially in the south and it does have some influences. It would be a stretch to say that it is a copy of any other region.

 

[Thekla]

Well, yeah all Christians are catholic ultimately. Even us heretic Protestants!


Thanks. It is my favourite icon of Christ. Simple yet beautiful.

I just love how it captures both the loving Shepherd and the righteous Judge all at once. Very powerful.

It is the earliest (6th century) icon of Christ to survive the Iconoclastic heresy (many many icons were destroyed). You probably know this -- it still (I think) survives at St. Catherine's monastery.

 

[MezzaMorta]

Certainly this is an unbiased opinion.

Love,
Christina

Well I’ve only lived in a nation with a majority of Catholics for many 5 or 6 years, so i’ve experienced both for their benefits and cons.

 

[Thekla]

I'm just saying countrys with majority population Catholic have much better food and culture.

aHEM ! post # 71, please

You have failed to read the cited texts ....

culinary historians (and anthropologists) locate the invention of ice cream in ancient Greece

 

[E.C.]

What is the distinct differences that would be cause for concern/problems?

Current Roman Catholic mass was written in 1969 and really is the "bare bones" of their method of worship.

Orthodox use the Divine Liturgy as written by St. John Chrysostom back in the... 4th & 5th centuries. When one compares the Divine Liturgy to the Roman Catholic mass, one sees a lot of differences. Besides, when I was RC and would grudgingly visit my stepmom's Orthodox church, the best way to put this would be, I felt complete. I still do after every Liturgy, feel complete. Its hard to explain, but this was something that I never experienced in any RC mass or Protestant whatchamacallit.

So, the EO position is that it's wrong to worship using musical instruments?

Not sure about wrong, per se, but we don't. There's theology behind it, but going into depth would derail the thread into a debate about instruments or no instruments.

another interesting hypothetical. Could an ex cathedra undo a previous ex cathedra.... hmmm.

A Council can undo decisions from a previous Council. One example is in the early 8th century they declared all icons destroyed; thus starting the Iconoclasm days, in 787 with the Second Ecumenical Council at Nicaea, they declared that icons are ok. Unfortunately some Protestants only recognize the first provincial council and not the later Ecumenical Council while not realizing the difference!

Dropping all the "infallible" words would be a great start...

 

[Sothron]

Thats simply not true, the Eastern Empire was on the verge of collapse, Turks had expanded accrost most of it's money generating territory accrost Arabia and had their sights set on what is now Istanbul. Given it had great defenses and would have been a hard city to take, the Turks very well would have eventually taken it, long before 145? when the Ottomans did. The Crusades beat back the Muslims from Europe's doorsteps and delt them a blow that it would take nearly 400 yaers for them to recover from, in which allowed Europe to progress rapidly allowing for the army's of Europe to come to a level which was a capable of repelling the Muslims once they broke though.

The Eastern empire tryed to emulate it's creator, but it never could. At it's strongest times it was a small empire centered around a few strong cities, with a significant amount of tributary citys surrounding it and a strong slave army with a core of professional soilders. But it never reached the power and domination that the Roman Empire/Republic held.

Wrong on all counts again. Where did you get this history from? Islam 'R Us or something?

The Byzantine Empire was in decline but still very strong at the time of the Crusades. The Crusades did NOTHING and I emphasize NOTHING to Islam outside of siezing control of the Holy Land and a few outlying areas like Antioch and Aleppo for a few years. The Turks could never take Constantinople and the only reason they did in 1454 (IIRC the year) was due to treachery and advanced siege technology that simply did not exist in the time of the Crusades.

The Muslims had already been beaten back well before the Crusades. Leo III and Basil II both Byzantine Emperors simply beat the tar and feathers out of the Muslim armies that tried to take over Byzantium and by extension the rest of Europe. If it were not for those Emperors then all of Europe would have eventually fallen under Islam.

Your analysis of just how powerful Byzantium was is also completely wrong, no offense. At its heights it was practically the entire eastern side of the known world and if Heraclius had not exhausted himself in destroying the Sassanid Empire then he would have had the men and resources to put down Islam when it first broke out of the Arabian peninsula. It is a tragedy he was not able to do so.

I also have to add for honesty's sake that I have two degrees in history and am currently rereading the excellent Byzantine trilogy by Norwich at this time. I suggest it to you so that you may correct some of the inaccurate ideas you seem to have about that time period.

 

[Sothron]

I'm just saying countrys with majority population Catholic have much better food and culture.

Really? So Greek, Russian, Middle Eastern and Slavic culture isn't good enough for you?

 

[E.C.]

I’m sure all food of the region has connections to other regions, but the vast majority of Greek food is really just Greek renditions of Turkish food. Most of the early “Greek” city states were in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish culture. It was the heavy influence of southern cultures that created Greece’s cuisine.




Italian food is generally unique, especially in the south and it does have some influences. It would be a stretch to say that it is a copy of any other region.

Psst! Or maybe Turkish food is influenced by Greek food because the Greeks were all over the Eastern Mediterranean for a looooong time an the Turks hailed from the Steppe over near current day Uzbekistan and the other 'Stans. Then when the Seljuk Turks came around, they kicked the Greeks out. The Ottomans came from the Seljuks and merely continued the kicking out of Greeks.


Just thought I should point that out.

 

[Sothron]

Serbs just rounded them up at gunpoint and sent them off to concentration camps to be executed.

As opposed to the death squads the Muslims used? There is no black and white. All sides have done evil things.

 

[Sothron]

I’m sure all food of the region has connections to other regions, but the vast majority of Greek food is really just Greek renditions of Turkish food. Most of the early “Greek” city states were in Turkey and heavily influenced by Turkish culture. It was the heavy influence of southern cultures that created Greece’s cuisine.




Italian food is generally unique, especially in the south and it does have some influences. It would be a stretch to say that it is a copy of any other region.

More bad history. The Greeks were their own culture and the entire western shore and signifant portions of Turkey were in fact Greek. Those were Greek colonies and Greek city states that were found in Turkey. Or I guess the British colonies in America were really just Native America colonies because that's where they were located at?

You also know I'm sure that the Phillistines and Cathaginians were also Greeks, as were Syracruse and several cities in Sicily where most of the best "Italian" food and culture comes from? Where do you think they got that from? One guess and the only answer is Greece.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Little lamb,

Personally, I do not know. If you wish for more Orthodox to see your question, then please post it in TAW so you can get more feedback.

Love,
Christina

Hi. Why can't you give a view here? Don't catholics and Orthodox believe Christians are the "New Israel"?

[ISA] Z@karyah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which They-shall-take-fast/hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-hold in-hem-of a-Man, a-Y@huwdiy, to-say We-are-going with-You that We-hear Elohiym with-You.

Mark 6:56 And wheresoever He went into villages, or into cities, or into fields/hamlets in the marketplaces, they place the being sick and were beseeching Him that only the fringeof the garment of Him they may be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were saved.

 

[Sothron]

Also, the "Turks" you keep referring to were latecomers to Turkey who invaded from the Steppe around the Caspian Sea and gradually drifted in and displaced/conquered the native non-Turks and Greeks living there.

 

[Sothron]

I highly suggest the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Centuries-John-Julius-Norwich/dp/0394537785

Its very readable and provides a fascinating view of life back then including all of the early Christian heresies and struggles. Its the first book in his Byzantium trilogy.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I highly suggest the following:

http://www.amazon.com/Byzantium-Centuries-John-Julius-Norwich/dp/0701737785

Its very readable and provides a fascinating view of life back then including all of the early Christian heresies and struggles. Its the first book in his Byzantium trilogy.

How widely available were the Scriptures back then to the "masses"?

 

[MezzaMorta]

Really? So Greek, Russian, Middle Eastern and Slavic culture isn't good enough for you?

Middle Eastern culture in places is excellent, but I would take Italian or French culture and cuisine over any of those you listed any day.




Russia and Slavic nations are too eastern European and dreary. Cezch Republic and Poland were fun, but no compare.