What would it take for Orthodoxs to come under Pope

[Sothron]

How widely available were the Scriptures back then to the "masses"?

It depends on the timeframe you are referring to. One of the reasons icons came into being was that they were used by missionaries and apostles as teaching tools to the illiterate who could simply look at an icon that depicted a person or a scene from Scripture.

 

[MezzaMorta]

As opposed to the death squads the Muslims used? There is no black and white. All sides have done evil things.

No one was innocent in the conflict, but if some side holds responsibility for the VAST majority of the systematic and organized mass murder and ethnic cleansing it was the Serbians. Not only in Bosnia, but as well Kosovo, Croatia and they tried in Slovenia and Macedonia.

Serbia had concentration camps, execution chambers and carried out the largest genocide in Europe’s history since the Nazis.

 

[Uphill Battle]

It depends on the timeframe you are referring to. One of the reasons icons came into being was that they were used by missionaries and apostles as teaching tools to the illiterate who could simply look at an icon that depicted a person or a scene from Scripture.

that's cool. Kind of like a protestant Flannel-graph.

how then, though, did they move from that to holding a part in worship (not worship OF.)

 

[E.C.]

Russia and Slavic nations are too eastern European and dreary. Cezch Republic and Poland were fun, but no compare.

See underlined part.

That is like me saying Lebanese food is too Middle Eastern.

Are you saying that Eastern Europe should drop its culture and become Western Europe? Who wants that? Is that seriously what every person with no knowledge or care for another European culture thought when Communism fell? If so, than d**n, that's a lot of hypocrisy from those who claim to like food from all over just because it is not from their own heritage and/or culture.

 

[Sothron]

Middle Eastern culture in places is excellent, but I would take Italian or French culture and cuisine over any of those you listed any day.




Russia and Slavic nations are too eastern European and dreary. Cezch Republic and Poland were fun, but no compare.

This is all opinion but I do like Italian food the best out of all the ones you listed, Greek comes a close second. Some of the Greek ya-ya's can cook some dishes that blow my tastebuds away!

I've had some good Russian food but there was some kind of a meat wrapped in bread, can't remember the name, that I really like.

 

[Sothron]

that's cool. Kind of like a protestant Flannel-graph.

how then, though, did they move from that to holding a part in worship (not worship OF.)

Icons were not primarily used in that way but they were used as a teaching tool. Think of them as multifacted: not only do they have great meaning in terms of being used in worship as "windows into heaven" but you can also simply point to one or display it to show a person or a scene from the Bible.

Think back to those times and how 99% of people could not read. How much easier was it for them to view an icon and "get it"? I would wager the icons and other pictorial depictions had a large role in the growth of Christianity. The masses got both an auditory and visual Good News back then.

 

[Sothron]

No one was innocent in the conflict, but if some side holds responsibility for the VAST majority of the systematic and organized mass murder and ethnic cleansing it was the Serbians. Not only in Bosnia, but as well Kosovo, Croatia and they tried in Slovenia and Macedonia.

Serbia had concentration camps, execution chambers and carried out the largest genocide in Europe’s history since the Nazis.

I will not defend that. I also have to point out that the Serbian Orthodox Church condemned it from the very start and IIRC had priests and bishops martryed for standing up to it as well.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Icons were not primarily used in that way but they were used as a teaching tool. Think of them as multifacted: not only do they have great meaning in terms of being used in worship as "windows into heaven" but you can also simply point to one or display it to show a person or a scene from the Bible.

Think back to those times and how 99% of people could not read. How much easier was it for them to view an icon and "get it"? I would wager the icons and other pictorial depictions had a large role in the growth of Christianity. The masses got both an auditory and visual Good News back then.

right, I'm just wondering on the "change of role" to what icons are used for today.

 

[Thekla]

that's cool. Kind of like a protestant Flannel-graph.

how then, though, did they move from that to holding a part in worship (not worship OF.)

there is no indication that I know of that they weren't.

They appear in the catacombs, (floor decoration) has been found in the both (I think) excavated "house Churches) .

I can't remember the source, but there is a 3rd c. letter that complains about their use (the woven variety) -- but note that anything deemed improper was referred to broad debate -- and this complaint wasn't.

Per our oral tradition, the 1st icon was delivered to Theophilos along with the book of Acts -- both written by St. Luke.

 

[E.C.]

Rule for the thread: Do not discuss former Yugoslavia in terms of who killed who, who was more evil, etc.

All sides did horrible stuff. However, 99% of the time it is not usually religion that causes problem, but politics and violence in the name of religion.

That is all.

 

[Asinner]

Hi. Why can't you give a view here? Don't catholics and Orthodox believe Christians are the "New Israel"?

[ISA] Z@karyah 8:23 Thus sayeth YHWH-of Hosts: in-Days, the-those, which They-shall-take-fast/hold a-hem/wing, Ten Mortals, from-all Tongues-of the-Nations.
And-They-hold in-hem-of a-Man, a-Y@huwdiy, to-say We-are-going with-You that We-hear Elohiym with-You.

Mark 6:56 And wheresoever He went into villages, or into cities, or into fields/hamlets in the marketplaces, they place the being sick and were beseeching Him that only the fringeof the garment of Him they may be touching, and as manysoever as touch of Him/it, were saved.

Yes, in that we have remained loyal to the whole Covenant.

Love,
Christina

 

[E.C.]

right, I'm just wondering on the "change of role" to what icons are used for today.

You mean, since most people these days are literate did the role of icons change?

Heavens no! Another reason why we have icons is because they are evidence of the Incarnation; proof that Christ was really on the earth. Besides, they also show a lot of history in belief as well as theology.

Even if an icon is in Slavonic and not English, I can still generally tell who or what is depicted.

 

[Sothron]

right, I'm just wondering on the "change of role" to what icons are used for today.

I do not think they ever changed. The icons were used back then in worship and that never changed and it won't change. The *additional use* as a teaching tool is probably reduced by a significant use though since most of the world is now literate and a visual learning aid simply is not as needed.

Hope that makes sense!

 

[mont974x4]

You mean, since most people these days are literate did the role of icons change?

Heavens no! Another reason why we have icons is because they are evidence of the Incarnation; proof that Christ was really on the earth. Besides, they also show a lot of history in belief as well as theology.

Even if an icon is in Slavonic and not English, I can still generally tell who or what is depicted.

While I enjoy history, and such artifacts are a key to that enjoyment, we must be careful because of the dangers of idolotry and the no-no about making images.

But to be fair, I'm also against having crosses in the church or as jewlery for the same reasons.

This is not something I try to force on others, as I see it as an area of freedom....but I do caution, because the danger is very real.

 

[E.C.]

This is not something I try to force on others,

And that is why I respect you.

 

[Tonks]

They'd have to return from schism.

 

[Uphill Battle]

I do not think they ever changed. The icons were used back then in worship and that never changed and it won't change. The *additional use* as a teaching tool is probably reduced by a significant use though since most of the world is now literate and a visual learning aid simply is not as needed.

Hope that makes sense!

it does, thanks.

 

[mont974x4]

And that is why I respect you.

And I thought you were just being obedient and respecting your olders. LOL

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You mean, since most people these days are literate did the role of icons change?

Heavens no! Another reason why we have icons is because they are evidence of the Incarnation; proof that Christ was really on the earth. Besides, they also show a lot of history in belief as well as theology.

Even if an icon is in Slavonic and not English, I can still generally tell who or what is depicted.

You mean you didn't hear.......Faith is evidence of the things not seen. Icons do nothing to bring belief to others.

Young) John 20:29 Jesus saith to him, `Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed; happy those not having seen, and having believed

 

[mont974x4]

I think they can be a useful tool, such as music, movies, tracts, etc have all been useful in spreading the message but they do not bring faith and should remain in proper perspective.


ESV
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.