What was reformed?

[b4jesustoday]

Baptism!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Matt 28:19 ( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)

(Outside the ark and the church there is no salvation!)

 

[b4jesustoday]

If you believe salvation by faith alone or by believing tell me how much “believing” do you have to do?

Jn 3:16

 

[Dave L]

Baptism!

Ez 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Matt 28:19 ( Disciples by baptism not faith alone)

Mk 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved!

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism)

John 4:4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.(Baptism)

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:3

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (baptism)

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)

(Outside the ark and the church there is no salvation!)

Believers ONLY were baptized in the NT.

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” Acts 8:36–38 (KJV 1900)

 

[fhansen]

Indeed, the church is his body of believers.
“and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.” Ephesians 1:22–23 (NCPB)

Well, the church has certain beliefs, which she received at the beginning. The closer we are to those beliefs the more united we are to the church that Christ actually established. Already in His times there were false prophets and novel gospels or those who believed they belonged to His fold, who, in fact, did not belong to it.

 

[Dave L]

Well, the church has certain beliefs, which she received at the beginning. The closer we are to those beliefs the more united we are to the church that Christ actually established. Already in His times there were false prophets and novel gospels or those who believed they belonged to His fold, who, in fact, did not belong to it.

If we can look at the church biblically, any two believers meeting at Micky D's over coffee are the church visible. When they leave they are the church invisible. Visible Institutional Churches are not the Church. They a religious franchises that sell a particular brand of religion to the Church. But they are not needed. The church is made up of believers who are the body of Christ.

 

[fhansen]

Catholics make works the means of salvation. The Reformed and others make works the effect of salvation. It's about works VS grace.

Catholics believe that once one is justified, made new creations, then they're expected to live like it. Faith is not an excuse or license to be free from our obligation to be righteous-that's not the purpose of the New Covenant. Instead faith finally provides the true and authentic means to achieving that righteousness. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law if we wish to enter heaven (Matt 5). We'll be judged by the law (Rom 2) even though the law cannot possibly justify us. If we have correct understanding we know that now we fulfill the law by being under grace. Only by remaining in Him and He in us can we live by the Spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh. We work out our salvation in cooperation with He who works in us (Phil 2).
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Our justice or righteousness begins with communion or relationship with God, established by faith. That's the essence of what makes us just in His eyes-we were made for that relationship and anything outside of or apart from it is a state of injustice, disorder, etc. Love is the key. It defines the righteousness that we're made to possess as a result of fellow-shipping with the Source of that love. And this is why the first few commandments of the Decalogue are what they are-and why the Greatest Commandment is what it is. We'll actually be judged on our love at the end of the day. But love makes exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees and teachers of the law relatively easy, to the extent that we possess it.

 

[b4jesustoday]

Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved! But not saved by faith alone, and not called to faith alone! Phil 1:28 James 2:24

 

[fhansen]

If we can look at the church biblically, any two believers meeting at Micky D's over coffee are the church visible. When they leave they are the church invisible. Visible Institutional Churches are not the Church. They a religious franchises that sell a particular brand of religion to the Church. But they are not needed. The church is made up of believers who are the body of Christ.

Without the visible institutional church, human warts and all, Christianity would most likely be a minor footnote in history by now. There would be no assembling of the writings where decisions were made as to the authenticity of the letters and books, i.e. no canon of Scripture, no creeds, no continuity of faith: "...one lord, one faith, one baptism"-no doctrine of the Trinity hammered out. The church has a unified body of beliefs while many Christians out there are all over the page, sometimes with starkly contrasting beliefs based on Scripture alone. Some even deny the deity of Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit going by Scripture-and the arguments are not implausible.

Even if the bible somehow existed without the existence of a single visible united church which could actually oppose often widespread controversial teachings and rule on them (impossible within Protestantism BTW), Christianity would look entirely different today, if it existed at all. One cannot pick up and read the bible, separate from the continuous historical legacy of the church which originally received the gospel and produced the New Testament writings, and end up with any form of the faith that we might readily recognize today, if the reader was even able to take the book seriously at all in that case. Those believers who preceded us down through the centuries, united and bonded in faith and community through the church that proclaimed it to them are greatly responsible for the faith we all have today.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Dave listed this as error #1, Peter as the first pope, and I will have to agree with him as that is the cornerstone of the rcc belief system supporting the papacy IMHO.

"This interpretation, however, is not Biblical. There has been much scholarly debate regarding to whom Jesus refers to as the rock in Matthew 16:18. While Peter’s name in Greek is Petros which means "rock"--or actually, a small, movable stone--Jesus switches to petra when he says, “and upon this rock I will build my church” (emphasis added). Petros is a masculine noun, whereas petra is feminine and refers to bedrock or an immovable foundation.ii Jesus thus makes a play-on-words between Peter’s name and the rock that establishes His Church. Theologian Loraine Boettner writes that Jesus’ words translate as, “You are Petros, and upon this petra I will build my church.”iii A change of gender indicates a change of subject.

So if the rock isn't Peter, who is it?
Scriptures make it clear that the rock is Christ. There are approximately 34 instances of Christ being referred to as a rock in the New Testament, including the following:........"

by the way Peter is never referred to in the bible as the rock

"If indeed Jesus had made Peter the primary disciple, the other disciples would not have been found contending as to who would be the greatest among them. (Matthew 18:1.) They would have submitted to the wish of their Master, and honored the one whom He had chosen. Instead of appointing one to be their head, Christ said "Be not ye called Rabbi; . . . neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23: 8, 10
read more here
Who is the Rock on which Jesus said He would build His Church?

 

[b4jesustoday]

It is Peter and pope which means father Is 22

peter is first among the apostles mt 10:2

The apostles are the foundation “rock” of the church eph 2:20

and the authority the symbolized by the keys are only given to Peter mt 16:18

The prime minister holds the keys under the king. Is 22

Jesus is the cornerstone not the rock or foundation

 

[b4jesustoday]

If it’s not Peter why even mention his name and why change his name God does this to establish His authority in men Abram Abraham Jacob Israel

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

acts 1 who stood up in those days? Peter of couse

 

[b4jesustoday]

It is the church founded by Jesus Christ! He builds His church but not on Himself on the rock of Peter, He is the wise man who builds His house on Peter and the apostles

 

[Philip_B]

It is the church founded by Jesus Christ! He builds His church but not on Himself on the rock of Peter, He is the wise man who builds His house on Peter and the apostles

If I read the scriptures correctly Peter's faith, though undoubted was not entirely rocklike, and he would soon enough deny Jesus 3 times. I think Jesus builds his Church on the faith of his followers, which actually makes sense on the keys passage. That would make the rock faith in Jesus as Messiah and Son Of God.

If Peter the man is what is important, then why Rome and not Antioch? And I have great respect for the Roman church, as one of the churches founded by the Apostles.

 

[Dave L]

Without the visible institutional church, human warts and all, Christianity would most likely be a minor footnote in history by now. There would be no assembling of the writings where decisions were made as to the authenticity of the letters and books, i.e. no canon of Scripture, no creeds, no continuity of faith: "...one lord, one faith, one baptism"-no doctrine of the Trinity hammered out. The church has a unified body of beliefs while many Christians out there are all over the page, sometimes with starkly contrasting beliefs based on Scripture alone. Some even deny the deity of Jesus as well as the Holy Spirit going by Scripture-and the arguments are not implausible.

Even if the bible somehow existed without the existence of a single visible united church which could actually oppose often widespread controversial teachings and rule on them (impossible within Protestantism BTW), Christianity would look entirely different today, if it existed at all. One cannot pick up and read the bible, separate from the continuous historical legacy of the church which originally received the gospel and produced the New Testament writings, and end up with any form of the faith that we might readily recognize today, if the reader was even able to take the book seriously at all in that case. Those believers who preceded us down through the centuries, united and bonded in faith and community through the church that proclaimed it to them are greatly responsible for the faith we all have today.

We must base the church on scripture. Not on human religious business franchises. Any visible Institutional "Church" is nothing more than that.

 

[Dave L]

Catholics believe that once one is justified, made new creations, then they're expected to live like it. Faith is not an excuse or license to be free from our obligation to be righteous-that's not the purpose of the New Covenant. Instead faith finally provides the true and authentic means to achieving that righteousness. Our righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law if we wish to enter heaven (Matt 5). We'll be judged by the law (Rom 2) even though the law cannot possibly justify us. If we have correct understanding we know that now we fulfill the law by being under grace. Only by remaining in Him and He in us can we live by the Spirit and not fulfill the desires of the flesh. We work out our salvation in cooperation with He who works in us (Phil 2).
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Our justice or righteousness begins with communion or relationship with God, established by faith. That's the essence of what makes us just in His eyes-we were made for that relationship and anything outside of or apart from it is a state of injustice, disorder, etc. Love is the key. It defines the righteousness that we're made to possess as a result of fellow-shipping with the Source of that love. And this is why the first few commandments of the Decalogue are what they are-and why the Greatest Commandment is what it is. We'll actually be judged on our love at the end of the day. But love makes exceeding the righteousness of the Pharisees and teachers of the law relatively easy, to the extent that we possess it.

The problem with your theory is that people arer so wicked they can't believe in anything but a false Christ unless God first saves them.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (NCPB)

 

[fhansen]

We must base the church on scripture. Not on human religious business franchises. Any visible Institutional "Church" is nothing more than that.

And with your logic then JWs have as much right to call themselves church, the Church, going by Scripture alone as they do, and arguing quite plausibly for many of their positions with it.

 

[fhansen]

The problem with your theory is that people arer so wicked they can't believe in anything but a false Christ unless God first saves them.

“And the LORD thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.” Deuteronomy 30:6 (NCPB)

Of course, as if everyone who’s heard those words, whether when first spoken or at anytime later down through the centuries and applied them to themselves, was/is necessarily saved. As most Christians believe anyway, God draws us internally by grace while still never totally overwhelming our wills. He wants us to participate to the extent we’re able, with a weak “yes” at first perhaps, then expected to grow stronger as we continue to walk with and remain in Him. He wants our wills involved-and allowed Adam to fall to begin with because of that desire, that purpose.

We cannot possibly save ourselves and yet we can always say no to being saved. God has patiently worked with and cultivated fallen man down through the centuries so that we might muster a “yes” instead to the light when we finally see it, when we finally meet Him, rather than remain in the darkness as we tend to prefer. Not all who recognized who He was came to Him, or remained in Him after first coming.

 

[Studyman]

It is the church founded by Jesus Christ! He builds His church but not on Himself on the rock of Peter, He is the wise man who builds His house on Peter and the apostles

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

The stone the builders rejected was not Peter, but the Lord's Christ.

1 Cor. 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[Dave L]

Of course, as if everyone who’s heard those words, whether when first spoken or at anytime later down through the centuries and applied them to themselves, was/is necessarily saved. As most Christians believe anyway, God draws us internally by grace while still never totally overwhelming our wills. He wants us to participate to the extent we’re able, with a weak “yes” at first perhaps, then expected to grow stronger as we continue to walk with and remain in Him. He wants our wills involved-and allowed Adam to fall to begin with because of that desire, that purpose.

We cannot possibly save ourselves and yet we can always say no to being saved. God has patiently worked with and cultivated fallen man down through the centuries so that we might muster a “yes” instead to the light when we finally see it, when we finally meet Him, rather than remain in the darkness as we tend to prefer. Not all who recognized who He was came to Him, or remained in Him after first coming.

You must be born again before you can stop worshiping idols in Jesus' name. The flesh cannot choose the things of the Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

And with your logic then JWs have as much right to call themselves church, the Church, going by Scripture alone as they do, and arguing quite plausibly for many of their positions with it.

They just as you call yourselves a church. But only if you define Church as an assembly.