What think ye of Ezekiel's Temple?
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seventysevens
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I can agree with that , but concerning the temple , i just go with what the scripture says , and that those in Israel have their heart set on it , so that indicates to me it will happen , another aspect is that , it seems that most people that say it won't happen are amil and do not believe there will be a coming man of lawlessness who will go into a temple and sit in a throne and declare himself to be God - so if they can find someone - Anyone at all in the past that made that claim then in their eyes that prophecy be fulfilled , even though there is much much more than that to the prophecy that has not happened
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seventysevens
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Romans 11
You need to read all the bible , then properly interpret it - that is what you forgot to do
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Romans 11
You need to read all the bible , then properly interpret it - that is what you forgot to do
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; (ESV)
In Romans 11 Paul uses the Olive Tree as a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of believing Israelite branches and believing Gentile branches grafted into the same tree.
There is no path to salvation outside of the Church found in the passage.
Verse 26 refers back to verse 23.
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seventysevens
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I don't recall anyone saying true redemption or salvation path is in the church as the church cannot provide redemption or salvation to anyone not even themselves
For there is only One Person that can give redemption and salvation who is the One and Only True Messiah Jesus Thee Messiah
The only path to redemption salvation is found in HIM and no one else
Give Praise to the LORD Jesus
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Since the "Church" is made up of all of those individuals who have placed their faith in Christ, since His death at Calvary, your statement above is double-talk.
Once a person comes to faith in Christ, they automatically become a part of Christ's Church, revealed in Matthew chapter 16.
Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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seventysevens
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In all of that scripture you focus on the church when you simply could have said you must be born again in order to enter the KINGDOM of our Lord Jesus thee Christ
You do the double talk and still cant give glory and praise to Jesus for without Jesus there would not be a Christian church
Your focus is on the church and not the One who establishes it
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Thanks for including Romans 11. I neglected to do so.Romans 11
You need to read all the bible , then properly interpret it - that is what you forgot to do
Romans 11
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
1 Peter 1
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
"His people which He foreknew" is a reference to true believers, represented by the "7000 who have not bowed the knee to Baal", and further characterized as the "remnant" and the "elect", which are also references to true believers.
Romans 10
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
The last verse of Romans 10 is a reference to national Israel. As disobedient and gainsaying, they will be cast away, except for those who repent and believe. In Romans 11:1 Paul acknowledges that ethnically he is a citizen of disobedient and gainsaying national Israel, so he inquires whether he is among those who will be cast away. But he then immediately distinguishes himself and all true believers as "His people which He foreknew", and the "elect", and the "remnant". These will not be cast away, even though they are citizens of the unbelieving, disobedient and gainsaying national Israel who will be cast away.
Romans 11:23 further describes the condition which must be met to be included in God's Own Israel, all true believers.
The Romans 11 chapter continues to clarify the definition of God's Own Israel, all true believers, which is found earlier in Romans 2:28-29 and 9:6-8.
"All Israel" in Romans 11:26 is a reiteration of "all Israel" in Romans 9:6. It too is a reference to the believing, faithful, obedient, elect, remnant -- "His people which He foreknew".
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ralliann
christian
Good post IMO
The Israel of God is the whole people of faith which ekklesia being the church of the firstborn. I believe (unless convinced otherwise) means those which have a double portion. The natural sons Heirs in the earthly portion (carnal circumcision) in Abraham, are the firstborn only when( circumcision of the heart) having received the heavenly portion as well, in Christ. Like Isaac the only born, is Christ an only born
Two portions of inheritance promised in Abraham...one in Isaac, the other in Christ
Kings = royal covenant these kings are priests.....The covenant made in Gen 15 says nothing of kings….
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
*The women serve as an allegory for the two covenants Royal covenant in Christ Jesus..
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.
Lu 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
I think the problem here is not Abraham, but Sarai. Her being mother of kings is allegorical of the two covenants.
Christ is king of kings....
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Thanks and blessings.
Could you explain, citing Scripture, "The natural sons Heirs in the earthly portion in Abraham..."?
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Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
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ralliann
christian
Yes. I think I have already done that but I will be happy to do it again
What is said to Abraham in Genesis 15? 3 points we see here
1.* Abram will die
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
2.*But the covenant concerns the fourth generation of his seed
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
3 *Gen 15:16 does not speak concerning the 1st generation, Isaac.
Nor the 2nd generation, Jacob.
Nor yet the 3rd generation, the twelve patriarchs
The land promised the 4th generation of his seed.....
Gen 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Just an aside for a moment....
I will not go into this aspect to deeply but I think it too important to go without mention.
The above is where faith in the resurrection comes in concerning the covenant made in Gen 17. Hebrews 11 speaks of this, as does acts 7
These all will be dead when this covenant comes into operation. They knew the promise in Gen 17 would come into effect long after they had died, long after the 4th generation had come into the land. Faith in this would require being raised from the dead. So God tested Abram concerning it.
The 4th Generation, Joseph knew the time was near...…He also knew he would be dead....
Gen 50:23 And Joseph saw Ephraim’s children of the third generation: the children also of Machir the son of Manasseh were brought up upon Joseph’s knees.
24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
25 And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.
Notice Joseph says the land he sware to Abraham Isaac and Jacob. But God did not give the land to Abraham in the covenant made in genesis 15. Joseph is anticipating both covenants here.
the third generation is dead, Moses carries up Josephs bones
Exodus 1:6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Ex 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
Stephen killed with this testimony before the council, speaking of this
Acts 7:3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
Remained strangers and sojourners during their entire lifetime in this world....
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
And this portion quite clear IMO..... again Isaac used figurativel (allegory) of Christ
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
I hope this suffices.
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ralliann
christian
I have already spoken of this as well. Maybe I am on two threads here? LOL.
The coins minted by leaders of the revolts from Rome could have fulfilled these things.
One such Messiah proclaimed as Messiah by the leader in the Sanhedrin was bar kochba. there were great swelling words said of him. Which had coins minted as him sitting above the ark and the seat of mercy in the temple in the image of a star. Inscriptions on the coins declaring Israel's redemption under him.
So the coins could have been a fulfillment of who bar kochba (bar kochba = son of a star) was and what he was doing.
some of the teachings on the star prophesy were exceedingly boastful.
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seventysevens
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I can relate to your point of view , I can see that people may have different understandings from how they may read something and compare that something to what has happened in the past , I can also see that we can look at what is happening in the present and see that things on the world scene is shaping up and fulfill scripture equally as well and even better than how some see past history , the key is - evidence - example say that a prophecy has 10 facets of it to be fulfilled by a person and a person in the past fulfills 8 of those 10 - some people will reason that is good enough to say the person has fulfilled it as it happened 1500 years ago , that is not fulfilling the prophecy because all 10 facets have to be fulfilled in the man , but because no other man has come on the scene - it becomes assumed that it was fulfilled by that man .
Just as the scripture that says , there will be scoffers saying where is the promise of Jesus coming , 2000 years past and he has not yet come back - so they assume he will not , just as it was assumed that Moses would not return because he took longer than they expected him to return.
Gods Holy Word says Jesus will return and reign with the saints for 1000 years , why people do not believe God -because they are thinking in a human carnal manner just like those who thought Jesus and Moses would not return .
The bible makes it abundantly clear that GOD IS sending a strong delusion , in the form of a man , not only will he claim to be God , but he is given the power to perform signs and wonders which literally mean supernatural events that will cause people to believe he really is God and will willing bow down to him and serve him- it is much much more than just another guy who proclaims he is God and makes demands on people , but a man that can work supernatural
wonders that convince the majority of the population of earth to believe he really is God , as Jesus says the man will do it so convincingly that the very elect would believe it if they did not know beforehand to expect such a strong delusion to occur
After this man has had his time - Jesus physically returns to earth and reigns on earth while satan is locked in the pit for 1000 years
Now consider if you told people you were going to cook a turkey for supper
would you not expect people to believe what you said is what you meant ?
When reading scripture - or anything for that matter - read it it in plain sense , just in the same way you have a conversation , it be obvious when a person is speaking in plain sense and when they are speaking in a symbolic way , and all too often people hide behind the excuse that because the bible uses some symbolism -it mostly does not, it is not good sense to assume all is symbolic to make it mean what someone prefers it mean
When people speak of a man in the past that proclaimed he is God , he did not present the strong delusion that God is sending - and since Gods Words tells us plainly that Jesus will return to earth - it is good sense to believe what it says
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ralliann
christian
All I can say is this. How did people see things back then...
Ex 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Yet we have this said...Ga 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
I think we have two aspects of speaking about gods here.
Those which rule as god's over the people, vs those which are gods by nature. Kinda like Paul spoke of animals being considered clean or unclean.
Ro 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
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seventysevens
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I do not see how that applies to what I said - so it may mean you do not know what I said or referring to - so I will rephrase it
The Israelite people knew there would be messiah come to them as there are several hundred literal prophecies about the unnamed messiah to come and they anxiously awaited his arrival , they expected him to come in power and glory as a king , but when he came he came as a lamb so they did not recognize the messiah when he came. Only a few accepted him as messiah after they got to know him because of His teachings and ability to perform miracles , but the High Priests and Pharisees were intimidate by Him , fearing that because the people were starting to accept Jesus so they feared they would lose the influence they had over the people and sought a plan to kill him
They convinced the people to believe that he was a fraud and should be killed
so they abused him and killed him
Consider that the US and other countries have ambassadors that are sent out to other countries to represent and speak on behalf of the US in foreign relations and policies - the US and other countries SENDS people out to represent the will of the US and the other countries - Now lets turn that around a bit to make the scripture easier to understand -
2Thess2 teaches that God Himself is the person that is sending the Man of Lawlessness who is given the ability from God , (say in a manner like you allow someone to make a expensive purchase on your credit card , but not giving them permission to use that card for anything other than what you authorize to be purchased; they have been given power to buy - but only what you allow to be bought ) It might be possible to accomplish with this with technology but since it is done by a person who is doing satans work , and technology that can achieve this level of deception would require teams of people and that not likely
this Man of Lawlessness who professes to the world that he is God , performs miracles that are authorized by God himself for the sole purpose to cause the lie that He God has sent so that it would be believed
The scene is that God is repaying those who killed the prophets and the messiah by sending them a lie they are going to believe through the power of God Himself so that they will believe the lie and follow the false messiah to their demise , then after all that this Man of Lawlessness is destined to perform - Jesus returns in Power and Great Glory and overthrows and casts the Man of Lawlessness in to the lake of fire because the Man of Lawlessness is the Beast of Revelation 13
To paraphrase it is God Almighty using His Own type of Pied Piper story enactment to cause the people who rejected Jesus the True Messiah , to cause them to follow a evil false messiah , the strong delusion is that those who reject Jesus as messiah are deluded into believing that their awaited messiah has come to them and they think they do not have to repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness because that false messiah does not offer salvation and those that follow him are not interested in salvation
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You continue to fail to understand that that had been what the Nation Israel had been expected to believe, which is why Peter preaches that had been the case in Acts 2 and 3; why Paul preaches that to Jews, throughout Acts; and why he mentions it in Romans 10, right in the middle of his explanation in Romans 9-11 of how Israel fell.
John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ. 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
And so on - for those of that Nation who Believed He was Israel's Prophesied Christ were the church (assembly) He was building a new Nation of Physical, Believing sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob out of.
He said the following to THEM - that AFTER the majority of THEIR Nation had continued to refuse to believe that He was THEIR Prophesied Christ, and He began to focus more on those of that Nation who had believed that He was their Prophesied Christ...
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Later, we read of THAT "church" and ITS' Leadership over a New Nation of Believing, Physical sons of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...
Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Get a clue, already.
Rom. 5:6-8.
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"Israel fell" ???
"Get a clue, already" ???
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
Who do you think "the twelve tribes" would be?
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As James rightly noted: the Believing Remnant of said Nation.
But leave it to you to confuse his description with what Paul meant concerning himself, as he begins Romans 11.
Rom. 5:6-8.
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