What "rights" do homosexuals "deserve" to have -- WITH POLL!!

[Floatingaxe]

I do follow Jesus, as best I can.

Love for our spouses is not "misdirected love." It's love within marriages.

It is unholy attachment, and idolatry. Soul ties that need to be renounced in deliverance.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Where does the idea you have come
from, that Christ did not lay out doctrine?
If He did not teach us what is pleasing in the
sight of the Father, then how can He ask, why we would
call Him Lord, but do not the things that
He said? Luke 6:46

Was not the FIRST commandment to love the Lord your
God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength?

If we don't keep the first, then the 2nd we think we are keeping,
we keep by the flesh, because without the relationship by obeying the first,
the only thing we have to offer our neighbor is our carnal love, which is
not what Jesus had in mind. ~selah

Following Christ is not a doctrine, but a journey.

The route that is chosen may involve doctrines, which are like RAC recommended routes for our journey, but they are not the only way, and they are neither the journey itself nor the destination.

Christ was remarkably good at not giving us doctrine to get in the way of our relationship with him.

 

[Catherineanne]

Where does the idea you have come
from, that Christ did not lay out doctrine?
If He did not teach us what is pleasing in the
sight of the Father, then how can He ask, why we would
call Him Lord, but do not the things that
He said? Luke 6:46

Was not the FIRST commandment to love the Lord your
God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength?

If we don't keep the first, then the 2nd we think we are keeping,
we keep by the flesh, because without the relationship by obeying the first,
the only thing we have to offer our neighbor is our carnal love, which is
not what Jesus had in mind. ~selah

The funny thing with language is that it rarely allows redundancy; a redundant word soon gets forgotten, so even where we have two words meaning almost the same thing, they are very rarely exactly the same.

Therefore, if we have the word 'doctrine' and we have the word 'commandment' that is a very good indicator that they are not the same thing.

Christ indeed gave us commandments, although not many of them. But what he did not give was doctrine. Doctrine is what religions use to surround the commandments, which in Jewish terms is known as 'ringfencing the Torah'.

In other words, commandments come from God, and are non negotiable. Doctrine comes from man, and is optional.

 

[Catherineanne]

Homosexuals do not have spouses in the eyes of God they do not qualify. There is not two wives or two husbands in a marriage. A woman cannot be a husband and a man cannot be a wife. God made Adam a perfect mate. She was made from Adam, and he called her female, as she was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, and for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife. God did not provide Adam an alternative lifestyle. God called it good, when He finished His masterpiece of man and his wife. God was well pleased. Adam and his perfect mate that God made for him was perfect in the sight of God. Man cannot improve on what God has already perfected from the beginning.

Precious little of this is in the Bible. It is modern interpretation, but it is not Scripture.

Man was not made perfect. The Bible never calls him, nor any other part of the creation, perfect, because perfection belongs to God alone. God called his creation 'good', and that is the highest any of us can aspire to.

 

[lucyclaire]

The same rights as straight people, in the UK they can now have civil unions and I believe that it is fair.

People bring in the religious aspect of weddings but the majority of people get married in registry offices because it is cheaper, quicker and they like the smaller occasion. Or they don't even go to church and feel a church wedding will be hypocritical. I find it very rude and ignorant when fundie Christians don't recognise marriage if it is not in church. As someone who comes from a family that last saw a church wedding in 1967, I don't appreciate my family's choices being judged like that. I get very annoyed when people insist living together is not a true commitment and invalid. (I got these comments in Charismatic Churches, never the Catholic Church.) According to many half the men in the O/T would be hit with condemnation as they collect concubines and wives, whilst serving God.

My family is made up of couples living together, some for more than 25 years. I have seen marriages done the proper Christian way fall apart after five years. What was marriage in days of the OT and the NT, was it a massive religious ceremony or a legal contract? In the O/T, they may have sacrificed a lamb, had a party and exchanged money for the bride.. It wasn't a love relationship either ... and men had several wives. The brides were often about 14.....
Jesus said nothing about what makes marriage or about marriage and holiness, other then don't commit adultry and when divorce is acceptable. And he called those that judge others hypocrites, like the woman about to be stoned.
A marriage is consummated by having sex and the thing that makes it a marriage is a legal document. Fortunatly we are civilised enough to not push our 14 year old daughters into marriage, we don't have dowries which was biblical practice, and still practiced in the 19th Century in the West nor do we have to marry our rapists anymore. So why have we got so tied to what constitutes marriage in the eyes of God, that a couple that have lived together for 25 years, have been completely faithful to each other, will be together until they die are labelled "Fornicators and denying God.? And according to the fundies, I used to spent time with, it is my job as a Christian to call them sinners and tell them that God is not with them. And we wonder why people thing we are arrogant.

And why do people presume to know what other people's relationship with Jesus is? How does someone know that someone who is comfortable with their life and is comfortable with Jesus is wrong? There is a reason it is called a personal relationship with Jesus, it is personal, nobody else's business. I have no problem with sharing the Good News of Jesus but telling whether a person's heart is right before God and whether are "Truely born again" if they don't follow the party line.


People say that a Gay relationships is sinful, but most married couples start off living together, which many also condemn as sinful and just as harshly, yet nobody says they shouldn't marry or have civil recognition. My cousin is gay and want him to have the same civil rights that I do.
He doesn't need to told about what the bible says about being Gay, he is Catholic. I love him and accept him.

 

[Ohioprof]

Homosexuals do not have spouses in the eyes of God they do not qualify. There is not two wives or two husbands in a marriage. A woman cannot be a husband and a man cannot be a wife. God made Adam a perfect mate. She was made from Adam, and he called her female, as she was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, and for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife. God did not provide Adam an alternative lifestyle. God called it good, when He finished His masterpiece of man and his wife. God was well pleased. Adam and his perfect mate that God made for him was perfect in the sight of God. Man cannot improve on what God has already perfected from the beginning.

That's just your opinion. The fact that the Bible is silent about same-sex marriages apparently leads you to the interpretation that God opposes our marriages. But the Bible is silent on this question. You are reading your beliefs into the Bible and attributing your beliefs to God.

 

[Ohioprof]

The same rights as straight people, in the UK they can now have civil unions and I believe that it is fair.

People bring in the religious aspect of weddings but the majority of people get married in registry offices because it is cheaper, quicker and they like the smaller occasion. Or they don't even go to church and feel a church wedding will be hypocritical. I find it very rude and ignorant when fundie Christians don't recognise marriage if it is not in church. As someone who comes from a family that last saw a church wedding in 1967, I don't appreciate my family's choices being judged like that. I get very annoyed when people insist living together is not a true commitment and invalid. (I got these comments in Charismatic Churches, never the Catholic Church.) According to many half the men in the O/T would be hit with condemnation as they collect concubines and wives, whilst serving God.

My family is made up of couples living together, some for more than 25 years. I have seen marriages done the proper Christian way fall apart after five years. What was marriage in days of the OT and the NT, was it a massive religious ceremony or a legal contract? In the O/T, they may have sacrificed a lamb, had a party and exchanged money for the bride.. It wasn't a love relationship either ... and men had several wives. The brides were often about 14.....
Jesus said nothing about what makes marriage or about marriage and holiness, other then don't commit adultry and when divorce is acceptable. And he called those that judge others hypocrites, like the woman about to be stoned.
A marriage is consummated by having sex and the thing that makes it a marriage is a legal document. Fortunatly we are civilised enough to not push our 14 year old daughters into marriage, we don't have dowries which was biblical practice, and still practiced in the 19th Century in the West nor do we have to marry our rapists anymore. So why have we got so tied to what constitutes marriage in the eyes of God, that a couple that have lived together for 25 years, have been completely faithful to each other, will be together until they die are labelled "Fornicators and denying God.? And according to the fundies, I used to spent time with, it is my job as a Christian to call them sinners and tell them that God is not with them. And we wonder why people thing we are arrogant.

And why do people presume to know what other people's relationship with Jesus is? How does someone know that someone who is comfortable with their life and is comfortable with Jesus is wrong? There is a reason it is called a personal relationship with Jesus, it is personal, nobody else's business. I have no problem with sharing the Good News of Jesus but telling whether a person's heart is right before God and whether are "Truely born again" if they don't follow the party line.


People say that a Gay relationships is sinful, but most married couples start off living together, which many also condemn as sinful and just as harshly, yet nobody says they shouldn't marry or have civil recognition. My cousin is gay and want him to have the same civil rights that I do.
He doesn't need to told about what the bible says about being Gay, he is Catholic. I love him and accept him.

Great post. I am glad to hear of your love and acceptance of your cousin.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Following Christ is not a doctrine, but a journey.

The route that is chosen may involve doctrines, which are like RAC recommended routes for our journey, but they are not the only way, and they are neither the journey itself nor the destination.

Christ was remarkably good at not giving us doctrine to get in the way of our relationship with him.

I think we have a misunderstanding of the word "doctrine". It's not necessarily meant to be some standard set of rules or whatever.

doc·trine

/ˈdɒk

trɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dok-trin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 2.something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 3.a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

 

[QuakerOats]

All the rights that straight people enjoy, including the right to marry their partners. Thankfully, that's already true here in Canada.

 

[Ohioprof]

God never said that same-sex sex is a sin. That's just some people's interpretation of the Bible.

 

[Ohioprof]

All the rights that straight people enjoy, including the right to marry their partners. Thankfully, that's already true here in Canada.

Yay for Canada! I sometimes dream of moving there, except my job is here.

I would love to live in a country with universal, guaranteed health care. My dear friend died two weeks ago, and her daughter thus lost her health insurance! People are trying to find health insurance for my deceased friend's child. That should never happen in a civilized society, to have one's mother die and then to lose one's health insurance.

But I wander off topic.

Yay, Canada! Yay equality for people of all sexual orientations!

 

[Zecryphon]

Not really. The thread asks about individual rights. Presumably that refers to rights in the civil society and not in the churches.

Do you regard rights in the civil society as matters of the "flesh?" Is that how you are using the term "flesh?"

Everyone in this thread seems to be operating under the assumption that marriage is a civil rights issue. When did the rite of marriage become a civil right that everyone, regardless of their religious background, is entitled to?

 

[Phinehas2]

What rights do homosexuals deserve to have that no-one else has? For Christians we have all the rights we need through Christ Jesus, and without Him we have no rights. As Christians we know we are bought at a price.

 

[Zecryphon]

Actually, it is just the opposite. We are to preach the evangel ("Good Message" or "Good News") to the lost, showing them that not only can the Law not save anyone, but by the Law we are all deserving of nothing other than death, but that Jesus provides the answer, and that through His Grace.

But, while Christians are certainly to encourage one another and together we are to study the scriptures and grow in grace and learning, we are specifically commanded not to judge one another.

But, while Christians are certainly to encourage one another and together we are to study the scriptures and grow in grace and learning, we are specifically commanded not to judge one another.

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Does scripture disagree with you or am I misinterpreting this passage? It seems to me that we as Christians are to judge each other. Those who are outside the body of Christ, the church, are God's to judge.

 

[Zecryphon]

Loving our spouses is certainly not "misuse" of anything. And we marry out of love, not sexual desire. You don't have to marry to have sex. Marriage is a lifelong love commitment.

A part of me hopes that homosexuals do get the "right" to marry. I for one will be very interested to see what your divorce rate is, if any. Since marriage is nothing more than a loving commitment between two people, you should have no problem having a lifelong, divorce free marriage. I think it was Graham Norton who said that one of the benefits of being gay was that you'd never have to get married. LOL

 

[Ohioprof]

1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

Does scripture disagree with you or am I misinterpreting this passage? It seems to me that we as Christians are to judge each other. Those who are outside the body of Christ, the church, are God's to judge.

I don't want you judging me. I want people to mind their own business. I am a Christian. My life is not for you or for anyone else to judge.

 

[Ohioprof]

A part of me hopes that homosexuals do get the "right" to marry. I for one will be very interested to see what your divorce rate is, if any. Since marriage is nothing more than a loving commitment between two people, you should have no problem having a lifelong, divorce free marriage. I think it was Graham Norton who said that one of the benefits of being gay was that you'd never have to get married. LOL

We do have the right to marry in Massachusetts and in Canada.

You want us to have the right to marry because you hope our marriages will fail? That's not a very loving attitude.

Since the divorce rate among conservative Christians is higher than the divorce rate among non-believers and mainstream Christians, I think it's dangerous to judge other people by their divorce rates, don't you?

 

[Zecryphon]

The funny thing with language is that it rarely allows redundancy; a redundant word soon gets forgotten, so even where we have two words meaning almost the same thing, they are very rarely exactly the same.

Therefore, if we have the word 'doctrine' and we have the word 'commandment' that is a very good indicator that they are not the same thing.

Christ indeed gave us commandments, although not many of them. But what he did not give was doctrine. Doctrine is what religions use to surround the commandments, which in Jewish terms is known as 'ringfencing the Torah'.

In other words, commandments come from God, and are non negotiable. Doctrine comes from man, and is optional.

"But what he did not give was doctrine. Doctrine is what religions use to surround the commandments, which in Jewish terms is known as 'ringfencing the Torah'."

Let's look at what a doctrine actually is. Here is a definition to help you out:

doc·trine

/ˈdɒk

trɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[dok-trin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine. 2.something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine. 3.a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
[Origin: 1350–1400; ME < AF < L doctr&#299;na teaching, equiv. to doct(o)r doctor + -&#299;na -ine2

]

—Synonyms 1. tenet, dogma, theory, precept, belief.



Having read this far, do you now contend that Jesus did not give us any teachings, policies or principles, which are the definition of doctrine?

 

[Zecryphon]

We do have the right to marry in Massachusetts and in Canada.

You want us to have the right to marry because you hope our marriages will fail? That's not a very loving attitude.

Since the divorce rate among conservative Christians is higher than the divorce rate among non-believers and mainstream Christians, I think it's dangerous to judge other people by their divorce rates, don't you?

"You want us to have the right to marry because you hope our marriages will fail? That's not a very loving attitude."

That's not what I said. I said if you get the right to marry, I will be interested to see what your divorce rate is, if you have one. Since the homosexuals contend that a marriage is nothing more than a loving relationship between two people, you shouldn't have a divorce rate, right? Because love can overcome any obstacle right? So there should be nothing in your marriages that your love and commitment for each other can't overcome. If you do have a divorce rate though, then perhaps you'll be forced to consider the idea that marriage is something more than a loving relationship between two people.

"Since the divorce rate among conservative Christians is higher than the divorce rate among non-believers and mainstream Christians, I think it's dangerous to judge other people by their divorce rates, don't you?"

I'm not judging other people by their divorce rates. I can only judge those within the body of Christ. I never mentioned the divorce rate of conservative Christians. No need to, it matches the divorce rate of secular society. What's the difference between a mainstream Christian and a Conservative Christian? The high divorce rate among all Christians, I attribute to bad teaching and lack of teaching in the churches in the area of the sanctity of marriage.

Why are you bringing the divorce rate of conservative Christians in here? Is this some defense for the future divorce rate of homosexuals? Like "oh well, conservative Christians get divorced. Why shouldn't we? Why are you denying us our right to get divorced?" Right now it's a cry for the right to get married. Given enough time it will then be a cry for the right to get divorced. The Bible only gives one reason for a man to divorce his wife, and that is for adultery. But since your marriage will be built upon a loving relationship between two committed people, adultery should never be an issue, right?

 

[IamRedeemed]

Actually, it not "just my opinion". My beliefs actually come FROM the Bible
unlike some, I do not tell God what to say, do and think. I am His subject,
He is not mine. The God I serve is alive and well. I didn't create Him, His will
or His ways. He created me and I subject my will and ways according to
what He has said and continues to say.

It is the ordination of God Almighty on the sacrament of Marriage.
But of course having been taught and believe that Jesus is dead and
that there is no fear of His coming judgment what would you be
concerned about? You can do whatever you want. But I am here to tell
you that you have bought a LIE from the enemy, because judgment
IS coming to the earth and ALL will not be saved. And the Truth will be known.
It is better to find the truth on this side of eternity. Homosexuality is truly the
least of your problem.

Homosexuals do not have spouses in the eyes of God they do not qualify. There is not two wives or two husbands in a marriage. A woman cannot be a husband and a man cannot be a wife. God made Adam a perfect mate. She was made from Adam, and he called her female, as she was flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, and for this reason a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife. God did not provide Adam an alternative lifestyle. God called it good, when He finished His masterpiece of man and his wife. God was well pleased. Adam and his perfect mate that God made for him was perfect in the sight of God. Man cannot improve on what God has already perfected from the beginning.

That's just your opinion. The fact that the Bible is silent about same-sex marriages apparently leads you to the interpretation that God opposes our marriages. But the Bible is silent on this question. You are reading your beliefs into the Bible and attributing your beliefs to God.