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What proof would you need? (2)

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Wiccan_Child

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I don't think AronRa was precluding Gods because he thinks there might be Gods, I think he knows that science leaves the door open for anything REAL which would exclude Gods.
Only if you presuppose that deities are either a) to a one, logically impossible, or b) non-existent. Personally, I don't make such presuppositions, as there may well be a god floating about out there somewhere.

In any case, AronRa, in his videos, makes much the same point - God may exist, but there's nothing to suggest that he actually does. That's really the only reason why he doesn't preclude the existence of God: he is not so intellectually arrogant as to assume he knows God doesn't exist; rather, he freely admits he doesn't know one way or the other. Hence, he doesn't preclude God.

As for evolution, AronRa and Mikecpking make the point that the theory of common descent doesn't preclude God, no more, no less. That's all.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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If one subscribes to the 'rare earth' idea, it seems we have the conditions here just right for life (position of the planet, stable star, seasons, water, moon to stabilise rotation and so on). Plus inflation of the universe being within a few percentage points for matter to pull together to form stars and galaxies in the first place..it is a lot of 'luck'!
We know organic molecules are quite abundant in the universe, we know there are innumerable potential life-bearing rocks in the universe, so why is it so unlikely that life on Earth exists by chance alone? Not 'tornado in a junkyard' nonsense, of course.

Also, the Earth isn't 'just right' for life - life is 'just right' for Earth. Life changes and adapts, growing in complexity as it better wriggles into ecological niches. We live on a habitable planet because we must live on a habitable planet - if it was uninhabitable, we wouldn't live here. So even if sapient life is supremely unlikely to develop on its own, even if it needs a hundred and one tiny conditions to be just-so - if there are a billion billion billion planets (which, in all likelihood, there are) where life could be, there's no reason to presuppose that life couldn't be. And, in such a scenario, where would this sapient life find itself? Why, on a planet with all these tiny and precise conditions!

In short, a) I disagree with the assertion that life is too improbable to occur by chance, and b) asserting that the Earth is made 'just so' for life, boils down to the Survivor's Fallacy.
 
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Mikecpking

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If it had not happened we would not be here to say 'it was made just for us', but it did so we can,
if the hole was not there it would have no water in it, but it is so there is water in it.

Someone in the UK just won £30 million on the lottery I believe, was that a lot of 'luck'?

I choose because we are here, there are millions of miscarried babies 'not here' since Xmas alone, they had no 'luck'.
Is there a God? I hope not because I wouldn't like a God that presided over a world like this, it would be no friend of mine.


So, I put it to you. If God is going to be no friend of yours, why are you here on Christian forums?
 
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Mikecpking

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We know organic molecules are quite abundant in the universe, we know there are innumerable potential life-bearing rocks in the universe, so why is it so unlikely that life on Earth exists by chance alone? Not 'tornado in a junkyard' nonsense, of course.

Also, the Earth isn't 'just right' for life - life is 'just right' for Earth. Life changes and adapts, growing in complexity as it better wriggles into ecological niches. We live on a habitable planet because we must live on a habitable planet - if it was uninhabitable, we wouldn't live here. So even if sapient life is supremely unlikely to develop on its own, even if it needs a hundred and one tiny conditions to be just-so - if there are a billion billion billion planets (which, in all likelihood, there are) where life could be, there's no reason to presuppose that life couldn't be. And, in such a scenario, where would this sapient life find itself? Why, on a planet with all these tiny and precise conditions!

In short, a) I disagree with the assertion that life is too improbable to occur by chance, and b) asserting that the Earth is made 'just so' for life, boils down to the Survivor's Fallacy.

Plenty of scientists already subscribe to the idea of a 'rare earth'. Life does adapt and I agree with largely to what you say. But intelligent life elsewhere has yet to be discovered, but it does not mean that simpler life forms could could exist on many planets.

Rare Earth hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Plenty of scientists already subscribe to the idea of a 'rare earth'. Life does adapt and I agree with largely to what you say. But intelligent life elsewhere has yet to be discovered, but it does not mean that simpler life forms could could exist on many planets.

Rare Earth hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I'm aware of the Rare Earth hypothesis, however it has two major problems.

First, it is theoretically flawed - it assumes only an Earth-like planet could harbour life, but who's to say that sentient life couldn't form on moons, rather than planets? Who's to say that water is needed? The Goldilocks Zone exists for human life, but who's to say there isn't another Zone further out or closer in that would make the Earth (or any other planet) habitable to another, wholly different, but still sentient, form of life? In other words, it makes a whole lot of assumptions without justification.

Second, it lacks evidence. To be taken seriously, it must be evidenced that the conditions on Earth which would allow life to naturally form and evolve are so precise and fine-tuned that only an intelligent designer could have made it just so. That is to say, it can't be explained by pointing to the sheer number of other planets. This lacks evidence. Indeed, there is a growing body of evidence that Earth-like planets are quite common - we found one a mere 20 light-years away after only a decade of looking, which would imply that such planets are actually quite common.
 
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AV1611VET

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I am here to show creationists if I can how ridiculous their beliefs are.
By all means...
Mike, God is no friend of yours either, if you don't believe in him he will send you straight to hell, some friend.
You give me what I want and I will be your friend, stop giving me what I want and I will kill you, it's your choice.
Sounds like nature fits this bill as well.*

Do you believe in nature?

* Nature is actually worse. Give her what she wants, and she will still kill you.
 
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Mikecpking

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I am here to show creationists if I can how ridiculous their beliefs are.

Likewise. I think they do Christianity a lot of damage and no one is going to convince anyone who has done field study, biology, cosmology otherwise!

Mike, God is no friend of yours either, if you don't believe in him he will send you straight to hell, some friend.
You give me what I want and I will be your friend, stop giving me what I want and I will kill you, it's your choice.

Hi,
God is a friend of mine and I know how he works in my life and others. Biblically speaking, there is no such place as 'hell' as versions like the King James translate it from the Hebrew word 'Sheol' which means the abode of the dead and is referred to as 'the grave' in more modern traslations..but that is another subject!
God is not like that, he describes eternal life as a 'free gift' and wants to give life abundantly (john 10:10) and my experience of him is true. God hates social injustice, poverty, war, greed and what people make of this planet and how people treat one another, but he would much prefer peopel would live a little like he intended us to live, IE:

Matthew 5:
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.

Peace maker in this context comes from the Hebrew word 'Shalom' which means 'Wholeness, wellbeing etc' and we are to promote God's shalom.

Just for you:

John 10:10

New International Version (NIV)

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
 
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Mikecpking

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I'm aware of the Rare Earth hypothesis, however it has two major problems.

First, it is theoretically flawed - it assumes only an Earth-like planet could harbour life, but who's to say that sentient life couldn't form on moons, rather than planets? Who's to say that water is needed? The Goldilocks Zone exists for human life, but who's to say there isn't another Zone further out or closer in that would make the Earth (or any other planet) habitable to another, wholly different, but still sentient, form of life? In other words, it makes a whole lot of assumptions without justification.

Second, it lacks evidence. To be taken seriously, it must be evidenced that the conditions on Earth which would allow life to naturally form and evolve are so precise and fine-tuned that only an intelligent designer could have made it just so. That is to say, it can't be explained by pointing to the sheer number of other planets. This lacks evidence. Indeed, there is a growing body of evidence that Earth-like planets are quite common - we found one a mere 20 light-years away after only a decade of looking, which would imply that such planets are actually quite common.

Could be, but the cosmos is deafening in the silence from intelligent life so far, undiscovered.

I am not saying it is right, but if life is abundant which it very well may be, would strengthen the case for a universe fit for life to flourish.
 
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Gath

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Unfortunately for you, all you have is 150 years of contradiction and change.

Well...obviously. That's because science changes theories to fit facts, not facts to fit theories. (As creationists are so fond of doing.)

Indeed not one of you can support any small point offered as an evolutionary support and need to fall back on the holistic supports provided by a plethora of inconsistency, denial and a bunch of non plausible scenarios without merit.

That's not true at all.

Remember for 150 years well credentialed evolutionists were united in suggesting the fossil evidence supported mankind evolved from a knuckelwalking ape. This 150 years was overturned by one single fossil as has been the case many times.

If you think being skeptical of anything your researchers provide as evolutionary support is ignorant then I would say that the falsification of 150 years of woffle shoved down creationists throats really demonstrates whom the term 'ignorant' really applies to.

So why is it that you use the fact that scientists change their theories when presented with new facts as proof that they are wrong when you also used the (false) fact that scientists change the data to fix the theory (hand waving, as you put it) to prove that they were wrong? Which one is it?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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We can not sit on the fence when it comes to knowing or not knowing something, we must fall on the side of rationality,
if something has a rational possibility of being true then we say it may exist? if not we must be prepared to say it can not exist, either that or we do not discount anything our minds can create, which would be completely irrational.

I know some think the right thing to do is not to discount anything, but the sensible thing to do is discount everything until it can be shown to exist or at least show the possibility of existing, that must be the default position, suggestions by all means but giving something credence without justification just because we can imagine it is nonsense.
You seem to be contrasting your proposed mechanism with the standard one, yet they are one and the same. Your system just skips the first step.


  1. Accept all claims as possible and rational.
  2. Dismiss those which violate logic (e.g., "I saw an Invisible Pink Unicorn").
  3. Dismiss those which flat-out contradict established bodies of facts (e.g., "Pigs fly").
  4. Etc
  5. Those dismissed are labelled 'irrational' and 'impossible'/'improbable', and aren't considered again until new evidence comes to light.
  6. Those not dismissed are labelled 'rational' and 'possible', by sheer virtue of not being rejected yet.
  7. Next, we analyse evidence - the more and higher quality evidence a claim has supporting it, the more strongly we label it 'probable'.
  8. Rinse and repeat.
In other words, you start out assuming all claims are equally valid, and then apply sequential filters. Violations of logic are labelled 'impossible', violations of established facts are labelled 'improbable', etc. All those dismissed are labelled 'irrational' - they do not hold up to rational thought, violating one or more things.

So what's you've done is skipped the first steps: you said "dismiss the irrational as untrue, accept the rational as probably true", which is fine - except you didn't explain how you distinguish between rational claims and irrational claims. It's all very well and good saying we must fall on the side of rationality - but how do we adjudicate?

And that, my dear, is the nub of the problem: is the claim "deities exist" a rational, or irrational, claim? Does it violate any laws of logic? Does it contradict any established facts?
 
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Keachian

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The way the deities are laid out in the holy books yes they are irrational, let's tick them off, all powerful [impossible]
all knowing [impossible] omnipotent [impossible] always been there [impossible] only there to care for us [impossible] made everything that exists just to impress us [impossible] I could go on and on and so could you, the possibility of deities existing are zero.

Deities existing violates all the laws of logic and contradicts the established facts regarding size, abilities and the ability to exist yet not appear to exist.
Where should we draw the line? you tell me, I draw it when my brain tells me to stop.

All those you list come from Greek philosophy being somewhat injected into the Bible, I certainly don't believe God has those qualities
 
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mzungu

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I use what God gave me,[forgive the pun] my brain tells me what is fact and what is fiction via my experiences of life, I think we all do the same except some of us sometimes mistake feelings for fact.
We all know what is possible and what is impossible and some things are more impossible than others, Gods are more impossible than all the other impossibilities put together.

The first give away for religious people should be the fact that there is more than one religion, why should there be more than one? there is only one God so why the different beliefs? why don't they believe what I believe? why were they taught something different? don't they know that my belief is the right belief? or is it? how do I know my belief is the right belief? what if my belief is the wrong belief?
Do they ever question themselves like that? do they ever question each other like that? no they don't because they know they are right and that fact alone should tell them they are wrong.
The answer my friend is in the book: "Animal Farm". Did you know that Adam spoke English?:thumbsup:
 
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mzungu

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All those you list come from Greek philosophy being somewhat injected into the Bible, I certainly don't believe God has those qualities
This is partly true as many of the Ionian Philosophers also known as preSocratics were basically atheists; "This cosmos (universe) was neither made by Gods nor by man; It has existed and shall continue to exist like the eternal flame" (Heraclitus). Not to mention that Democritus believed that all life including humans evolved from simple life that existed in the sea and later migrated onto land. Democritus also believed that there are other inhabited planets in the universe. This over 2600 years ago! :cool:
 
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Wiccan_Child

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The way the deities are laid out in the holy books yes they are irrational, let's tick them off, all powerful [impossible]
all knowing [impossible] omnipotent [impossible] always been there [impossible] only there to care for us [impossible] made everything that exists just to impress us [impossible] I could go on and on and so could you, the possibility of deities existing are zero.
There are a number of problems there. First, you seem to be projecting the traditional view of the Christian god onto all gods - you assume all deities are depicted as omnimax entities, which is not the case.

Second, you assert that it is impossible, absolutely, categorically impossible, for a deity to be 1) omnipotent, 2) omniscient, 3) eternal, 4) only there to care for us, 5) made Creation to impress us, etc. What mathematical proof that each of these properties are absolutely, categorically impossible? What logical fallacy is committed by positing, say, an eternal entity?

So not only is your characterisation of deities grossly flawed, your disproof of such a caricature is groundless.

Deities existing violates all the laws of logic and contradicts the established facts regarding size, abilities and the ability to exist yet not appear to exist.
So you're saying deities violate all the laws of logic? Tell me, then, how does the existence of Zeus violate the Law of Identity ("A = A")? How does the existence of Furrina violate the Law of Excluded Middle ("A ∨ ¬A")?

I use what God gave me,[forgive the pun] my brain tells me what is fact and what is fiction via my experiences of life, I think we all do the same except some of us sometimes mistake feelings for fact.
While it is certainly an important endeavour to distinguish fact from fiction, simply asserting "Oh, I just know" is not a valid argument.

We all know what is possible and what is impossible and some things are more impossible than others, Gods are more impossible than all the other impossibilities put together.
Err, no. Impossibility is where the probability of something being true is zero. You can't get 'more impossible' or 'less impossible'.

The first give away for religious people should be the fact that there is more than one religion, why should there be more than one? there is only one God so why the different beliefs? why don't they believe what I believe? why were they taught something different? don't they know that my belief is the right belief? or is it? how do I know my belief is the right belief? what if my belief is the wrong belief?
Your objection stems from a number of assumptions, none of which may be true. First, you assume there is only one deity - ever heard of Hinduism? Second, you assume that this single deity reveals itself through one religion, that it would expunge man-made religions, etc - which obviously could easily not be the case; ever heard of pluralism?

Do they ever question themselves like that? do they ever question each other like that? no they don't because they know they are right and that fact alone should tell them they are wrong.
Interesting. You're telling them that believing one has absolute knowledge is good reason to believe you don't - yet here you are, espousing absolute knowledge on the non-existence of deities. Pot, kettle, kettle, pot.
 
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mzungu

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These things were given repeatedly, bimbo. And we still haven't found any shortcuts compliant with your desired lifestyle but we're working on it!
Your insults have been noted, now be a good lad and apologise to the lady; That is if you have any decency left in you!
 
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