What proof would you need? (2)

[selfinflikted]

...THAT'S where the hurt come from, not from God...from ourselves. When you look at those children or any children with problems or diseases, tell yourself that it is our fault...ALL of ours that that little girl or boy is hurting today...not God's.

God is allegedly responsible for creating this world and everything/everyone in it. So, how is this not 100% god's fault?

 

[begt]

God never promises fairness. He allows our sins to shape the world to show us that we are not the answer, HE is. Those children in Africa and children here in the US and children everywhere live in a sinful world...THAT'S where the hurt come from, not from God...from ourselves. When you look at those children or any children with problems or diseases, tell yourself that it is our fault...ALL of ours that that little girl or boy is hurting today...not God's.

I'm sorry to say it but I think that's messed up.

Your god never promises fairness... Hmm, that's not very...fair of him.

How can you blame anyone but god if god created the world and is ultimately responsible for all the suffering?

Its a bit like the logic they have in North Korea. If your grandpa was an enemy of the state you are deemed worthless and sentenced to a lifetime of slave labour. Even if you had done nothing wrong.

 

[jpcedotal]

I gotta do some work now...deadlines and all. I would like to say this is by far the best conversation I have had with a small group of atheists on here. It is nice to see we can totally disagree and still be civil.

Peace

 

[jpcedotal]

I'm sorry to say it but I think that's messed up.

Your god never promises fairness... Hmm, that's not very...fair of him.

How can you blame anyone but god if god created the world and is ultimately responsible for all the suffering?

Its a bit like the logic they have in North Korea. If your grandpa was an enemy of the state you are deemed worthless and sentenced to a lifetime of slave labour. Even if you had done nothing wrong.

God created the world but WE brought the sin into it. It is our fault, and to make it really unfair, we can do nothing to fix it but turn back to God.

 

[begt]

I gotta do some work now...deadlines and all. I would like to say this is by far the best conversation I have had with a small group of atheists on here. It is nice to see we can totally disagree and still be civil.

Peace

You're welcome.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

God is allegedly responsible for creating this world and everything/everyone in it. So, how is this not 100% god's fault?

I find it strange that people who call themelves "free-thinkers" seems so eager to avoid responsibility. These things (in this case, children with terrible diseases) are our problems - we need to sort it out. Heck, we're commanded to sort them out.

Jpcedotal however is wrong when he says God does not promise fairness. Life itself may not always be fair, but we are expected to act fairly.

 

[cupid dave]

I find it strange that people who call themelves "free-thinkers" seems so eager to avoid responsibility. These things (in this case, children with terrible diseases) are our problems - we need to sort it out. Heck, we're commanded to sort them out.

Jpcedotal however is wrong when he says God does not promise fairness. Life itself may not always be fair, but we are expected to act fairly.

?
"fairly?"

How would we define that?
And why would man be required to be fair?

I can see that men must be truthful, and must do things which the Truth about certain circumstances require.
But "fair" is not only subjective but dangerous.

Socialism seems "fair." But it is a slipper slpoe that leads to Failure.
And THAT is the Truth.

 

[selfinflikted]

I find it strange that people who call themelves "free-thinkers" seems so eager to avoid responsibility.

Don't point that finger at me. I don't believe in god (obviously), so how could I think it's really his fault? My post was clearly working under the hypothetical that god exists. And, if he did, then yes, he would be responsible. No way around that.

These things (in this case, children with terrible diseases) are our problems - we need to sort it out.

I do not disagree.

 

[begt]

I find it strange that people who call themelves "free-thinkers" seems so eager to avoid responsibility. These things (in this case, children with terrible diseases) are our problems - we need to sort it out. Heck, we're commanded to sort them out.

Jpcedotal however is wrong when he says God does not promise fairness. Life itself may not always be fair, but we are expected to act fairly.

I find it strange that people like you always deny god's responsibility.
Imagine that you are god, you are omnipotent and can do whatever you want.

You see people in horrendous pain that have done nothing wrong. Mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin are free to torture and execute millions. Yet you just sit there, doing nothing.

Many cases of suffering are unknown to us so we cannot know for sure how much is our "fault". But still it happens, and this is something "god" approves of?

Makes sense?!!?!

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

?
"fairly?"

How would we define that?
And why would man be required to be fair?

I can see that men must be truthful, and must do things which the Truth about certain circumstances require.
But "fair" is not only subjective but dangerous.

Socialism seems "fair." But it is a slipper slpoe that leads to Failure.
And THAT is the Truth.

The Bible has several quotes telling people to act and judge fairly, especially when it comes to judging the rich and the poor:

• Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. (Leviticus 19:15)
• Appoint judges and officials for each of your tribes in every town the LORD your God is giving you, and they shall judge the people fairly. (Deuteronomy 16:18)
• If a king judges the poor with fairness, his throne will be established forever. (Proverbs 29:14)
• He does not lend to them at interest or take a profit from them. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between two parties. (Ezekiel 18:8)

Political concepts such as communism and socialism don't promote fairness or equality - instead, they treat their people as though they were identical. For example, in Cuba a medical doctor earns roughly the same salary as a taxi driver (around $20 a month). That's certainly unfair.

 

[AV1611VET]

God is allegedly responsible for creating this world and everything/everyone in it. So, how is this not 100% god's fault?

God created the earth and turned it over to Adam to run it.

However, Adam gave it to Lucifer, who then offered it to Jesus, Who refused it.

Jesus will, however, return and wrest it from the hands of Satan, run it for 1000 years, then turn it back over to His Father.

 

[cupid dave]

I see. In the meantime I suppose you don't have any indications of when the Antichrist is planning to show up? In years, I mean.

The anti-christ arrived in 622AD, denying that Jesus was the son-of-God but accepting him as a messenger (prophet) to whom they really did not need listen.




The counter-christian conversion
All Rome has fallen, converted, even before the 6th Century. The Christian conversion of Egypt fulfills the prophecy of a (Christian) Egypt which does come true. Egypt comes to know Yehweh, though this nation was one of many very ancient Middle Eastern enemies of Rome, and of the Jews of
the Palestinia, which Rome then occupied.

Islam became the reaction to the aggressive Christian
proseltyzing if the seventh century:

Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the (seven) seals (OF SCRIPTURE, AS IF) I heard, as it were, the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts, [Ez 1:10], (one of the Four Jungian Functions of my mind) saying, Come and see.
Rev.

6:2 And I saw, and behold (in 622 AD; Anno Hegirae) a white horse, (a blank page of history yet unwritten, speeding to its fulfillment: [Symbolic Dictionary]): and he that sat on him, (Mohammed: [Rev. 8:10]), had a bow (to send out his message:[Symbolic Dictionary]); and a crown (of a
prophet) was given unto him: and he went forth (proselytizing), and to conquer, (beginning in Mecca and Medina, 630 AD).





[White Horse:
At Medina, Muhammad won acceptance as a religious and military leader. Within a few years he had established control of the surrounding region, and in 630 he finally conquered Mecca. There, the KAABA, a shrine that had for some time housed the idols of the pagan Meccans, was rededicated to the worship of Allah, and it became the object of pilgrimage for all Muslims.

By the time of his death in 632, Muhammad had won (been crowned with) the allegiance of most of the Arab tribes people to Islam.
He had laid the foundation for a community (umma) ruled by the laws of God.

Egypt under Roman domination, like the rest of the (Roman) empire, became Christian. But Egypt was rebellious and heretical, and eventually was divided up among four ruling families.
Distressed and divided, it fell easily before the Arab conquest of 639-642.]

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I don't believe in god (obviously), so how could I think it's really his fault? My post was clearly working under the hypothetical that god exists. And, if he did, then yes, he would be responsible. No way around that.

By that logic my parents should be totally reponsible for everything I do, even though I'm a mentally competant adult. After all, they chose to create me. I had no say in the matter.

Imagine that you are god, you are omnipotent and can do whatever you want.

You see people in horrendous pain that have done nothing wrong. Mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin are free to torture and execute millions. Yet you just sit there, doing nothing.

Many cases of suffering are unknown to us so we cannot know for sure how much is our "fault". But still it happens, and this is something "god" approves of?

Makes sense?!!?!

God frequently intervened in the Old Testament - the ten plagues of Egypt and the destruction of the Canaanites are probably the most famous. Yet frequently when these topics are brought up, people (usually atheists) use it as proof that God is evil and only cares for His chosen people, the Jews. What kind of God could possibly justify the deaths of so many to help so few?

Yet this is exactly what we want. We wanted God to smite wicked people like Stalin and Hitler - and when He doesn't, we argue that He is either indifferent to our suffering or He doesn't exist at all.

So what do we want? Should He intervene or shouldn't He?

 

[cupid dave]

Don't point that finger at me. I don't believe in god (obviously), so how could I think it's really his fault? My post was clearly working under the hypothetical that god exists. And, if he did, then yes, he would be responsible. No way around that.



I do not disagree.

You confuse the amighty (who is god of the living) with an archetypal Big Mommy who is supposed to "care" about us, in particular,...

Maybe you even think this concept of God implies he ought "take care of us."

Clearly, the Facts of Life, this life over which he is that God of the living, are that we must bow down and adapt to the Reality he represents,... oe else.

Or else disappear forever into the history of the universe as an extinction.

 

[begt]

By that logic my parents should be totally reponsible for everything I do, even though I'm a mentally competant adult. After all, they chose to create me. I had no say in the matter.


God frequently intervened in the Old Testament - the ten plagues of Egypt and the destruction of the Canaanites are probably the most famous. Yet frequently when these topics are brought up, people (usually atheists) use it as proof that God is evil and only cares for His chosen people, the Jews. What kind of God could possibly justify the deaths of so many to help so few?

Yet this is exactly what we want. We wanted God to smite wicked people like Stalin and Hitler - and when He doesn't, we argue that He is either indifferent to our suffering or He doesn't exist at all.

So what do we want? Should He intervene or shouldn't He?

God intervened in the book yes. But not in the actual world- takes more evidence to believe something like that.

I don't think your comparison is good btw. Lieutenant Stauffenberg very nearly killed Hitler, who survived the blast only because of a table made of solid oak (yet all others died that where present in the room). Yet your god thought that was a desirable outcome?

Hitler and Stalin were two deeply evil men, killing them would have done a great service to humanity.

 

[cupid dave]

Political concepts such as communism and socialism don't promote fairness or equality - instead, they treat their people as though they were identical. For example, in Cuba a medical doctor earns roughly the same salary as a taxi driver (around $20 a month). That's certainly unfair.

Youmake my point that unless we can establish the truth, fairness is a subjective and useless term.

People who can not even list rthe 12 Economic Systems of Distribution will complain that one used here or another, used eslewhere, is unfair.

Unfair to whom, and under what conditiins, and during what particular moment in time are all considerations to be investigated before some revolutionary gang organizes by using the mantra of "Unfair, unfair."


Communism is VERY fair when no one has much of anything, the situation is eonomically dire, and the system is more like a army struggling for mere survival.

The communism of a Jewish Kubbutz was never called communism simple beause it was an survival organization appropriate to the times.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

God intervened in the book yes. But not in the actual world- takes more evidence to believe something like that.

What, you want me to give you an example of God intervening without using the Bible?

I don't think your comparison is good btw. Lieutenant Stauffenberg very nearly killed Hitler, who survived the blast only because of a table made of solid oak (yet all others died that where present in the room). Yet your god thought that was a desirable outcome?

Hitler and Stalin were two deeply evil men, killing them would have done a great service to humanity.

My comparison was simply that when God did intervene to prevent suffering (such as freeing the Hebrews from Egypt), many people will claim that proves He is evil and shows favouritism. When God doesn't intervene - or at least doesn't seem to do so directly - we claim He is either indifferent or doesn't exist.

This schizophrnic attitude is why it's hard to get a stright answer.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Youmake my point that unless we can establish the truth, fairness is a subjective and useless term.
...
Unfair to whom, and under what conditiins, and during what particular moment in time are all considerations to be investigated before some revolutionary gang organizes by using the mantra of "Unfair, unfair."

So what about the Biblical posts I quoted, showing that God requires fairness? We can't simply ignore them.

 

[cupid dave]

I find it strange that people like you always deny god's responsibility.
Imagine that you are god, you are omnipotent and can do whatever you want.

You see people in horrendous pain that have done nothing wrong. Mass murderers like Hitler and Stalin are free to torture and execute millions. Yet you just sit there, doing nothing.

Many cases of suffering are unknown to us so we cannot know for sure how much is our "fault". But still it happens, and this is something "god" approves of?

Makes sense?!!?!

God did NOT do nothing.

God created man by a series of evoution leading to a final product in modern man that could think straight, if he so chose to do.

Man's worse enemy is man, and at the same time, man is his own best friend.

Men can work for their own common giood.
They can use Father Nature beneficially.

Or, they can violate the principles of survival as a species, compete and destroy themselves.

But to pretend that God is doing this to them, especially to accuse him of not stepping in and nursing us to sanity is wrong headed.

 

[begt]

What, you want me to give you an example of God intervening without using the Bible?

Yes, something bit more concrete for a change. I can point to a passage in the chapter The Bridge of Khazad-dûm in the Fellowship of the Ring and claim that balrogs had wings, but that doesn't even provide evidence for the existence of balrogs. Same thing with the bible.

My comparison was simply that when God did intervene to prevent suffering (such as freeing the Hebrews from Egypt), many people will claim that proves He is evil and shows favouritism. When God doesn't intervene - or at least doesn't seem to do so directly - we claim He is either indifferent or doesn't exist.

This schizophrnic attitude is why it's hard to get a stright answer.

Suppose he is omnipotent he could intervene everywhere at the same time. But he won't do that for some reason...