What proof would you need? (2)

[selfinflikted]

God created the earth and turned it over to Adam to run it.

However, Adam gave it to Lucifer, who then offered it to Jesus, Who refused it.

Jesus will, however, return and wrest it from the hands of Satan, run it for 1000 years, then turn it back over to His Father.

I get that, I really do. But you have to consider:

1) God is omniscient. Or, at least the majority of his followers claim him to be.

2) God created everything, including Lucifer.

With only those two considerations, he knew the outcome before he even began, yet, began anyway.

 

[selfinflikted]

By that logic my parents should be totally reponsible for everything I do, even though I'm a mentally competant adult. After all, they chose to create me. I had no say in the matter.

This analogy fails for the simple fact that your partents are not god. Their power and knowledge is extremely limited next to that of a supposedly omniscient, benevolent, and all-powerful being. If your parents had those qualities, then yes, they would be responsible.

 

[selfinflikted]

You confuse the amighty (who is god of the living) with an archetypal Big Mommy who is supposed to "care" about us, in particular,...

Maybe you even think this concept of God implies he ought "take care of us."

Clearly, the Facts of Life, this life over which he is that God of the living, are that we must bow down and adapt to the Reality he represents,... oe else.

Or else disappear forever into the history of the universe as an extinction.

I would be fine with that, were it not for you Christians insisting that their god IS Love.

 

[AV1611VET]

I get that, I really do. But you have to consider:

1) God is omniscient. Or, at least the majority of his followers claim him to be.

2) God created everything, including Lucifer.

With only those two considerations, he knew the outcome before he even began, yet, began anyway.

Like I said, should GM stop making cars, knowing that many of them will just be wrecked?

 

[selfinflikted]

Like I said, should GM stop making cars, knowing that many of them will just be wrecked?

GM doesn't have the power to make an un-wreckable car. God does.

 

[cupid dave]

So what about the Biblical posts I quoted, showing that God requires fairness? We can't simply ignore them.

No, we must examine them and learn about what the Bible says in regard to "fairness."

Consider:

Proverbs 26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.


Romans 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=Romans+16:17-19&version=KJV

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

This analogy fails for the simple fact that your partents are not god. Their power and knowledge is extremely limited next to that of a supposedly omniscient, benevolent, and all-powerful being. If your parents had those qualities, then yes, they would be responsible.

Even if my mother and father were somehow all-knowing and all-powerful, that wouldn't change the fact I'm an adult with my own mind and will, and I don't always do what they want.

Yes, something bit more concrete for a change.

Like what? Can out actually think of an incident outside the Bible where the outcome was proved to be due directly to God's intervention?

What's wrong with using the Bible to talk about God anyway? That's like a Creationist asking for an example of evolution without using fossils.

 

[selfinflikted]

Even if my mother and father were somehow all-knowing and all-powerful, that wouldn't change the fact I'm an adult with my own mind and will, and I don't always do what they want.

They could have created you perfectly.

Even if you went against your parents' wishes, do you think they would punish you with an eternity of torture?

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

No, we must examine them and learn about what the Bible says in regard to "fairness."

Consider:

Proverbs 26:25 When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.


Romans 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Proverbs 26:25 is talking about gossips and liars (link) and warns people not to believe them, no matter how charming they sound. Romans 16:18 (link) does them same.

Both passages are taken out context. Here the term "fair" doesn't means "equal" or "just", it means "charming".

 

[CabVet]

They could have created you perfectly.

Even if you went against your parents' wishes, do you think they would punish you with an eternity of torture?

Yeah, that blows my mind too, why would an all-knowing entity create an imperfect creature and a hell to punish it in for all eternity?

 

[selfinflikted]

.. why would an all-knowing entity create an imperfect creature and a hell to punish it in for all eternity?

It didn't.

 

[cupid dave]

Proverbs 26:25 is talking about gossips and liars (link) and warns people not to believe them, no matter how charming they sound. Romans 16:18 (link) does them same.

Both passages are taken out context. Here the term "fair" doesn't means "equal" or "just", it means "charming".

Fairly does not eist as a word in the KJ Bible and is better explained by the idea of judgement.

Consider all the verse which you quoted back there in regard to trying to make a point about fairness, as a concept in the Bible.

Good sound judgement in decisions is what they REALLY mean:




Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.[/font]

Deuteronomy 16:18Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.

Proverbs 29:14 The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever.

Ezekiel 18:8He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

They could have created you perfectly.

Even if you went against your parents' wishes, do you think they would punish you with an eternity of torture?

Would being created "perfectly" involve having no free will or a mind of my own? I doubt it.

Besides, straying from your Creators wishes doesn't automatically equal and eternity in Hell. Christianity preaches forgivness and mercy, even when the person doesn't always deserve it.

Cupid Dave: Yes, fairness does involve judgement. But my original quotes from the Bible were about judging fairly. Life might be unfair, but we shouldn't be.
------------------------------------------------

But back to my original criticism: why do people who call themselves "free-thinkers" have this idea that if God did exist He would be responsible for everything wrong in the world? Are they only interested in personal responsibility when there's no celestial man in the sky to hold their hands?

Or to put it more politely - if God was proven to exist, would atheists just give up all their humanitarian causes and pass the buck on to Him?

 

[cupid dave]

They could have created you perfectly.

Even if you went against your parents' wishes, do you think they would punish you with an eternity of torture?

LOL

The dinosaurs are a good example of what happens in Reality.

Man has now been elimnated except for just one species.
If he does not face the Facts of Life and start thinking about the survival of the species, instead of his own personal butt, his species will disappear into the eternal torment of Extinction.

Ifr he does fac3 the facts of life, he could live for eternity, or at least as long as the cockroach which is now 225,000,000 years old.

 

[selfinflikted]

Would being created "perfectly" involve having no free will or a mind of my own? I doubt it.

Could it be said that one can be perfect and lack free will?

Besides, straying from your Creators wishes doesn't automatically equal and eternity in Hell. Christianity preaches forgivness and mercy, even when the person doesn't always deserve it.

Tell that to the ones in hell.

But back to my original criticism: why do people who call themselves "free-thinkers" have this idea that if God did exist He would be responsible for everything wrong in the world?

Because he created it. There's no way around this. None, whatsoever.

Are they only interested in personal responsibility when there's no celestial man in the sky to hold their hands?

No, it has nothing to do with us shirking responsibility. It's the Christians who won't admit that their god is stagnant, impotent.

Or to put it more politely - if God was proven to exist, would atheists just give up all their humanitarian causes and pass on to Him?

Why would we? It's obvious god has no interest in helping people.

 

[selfinflikted]

LOL

The dinosaurs are a good example of what happens in Reality.

Man has now been elimnated except for just one species.
If he does not face the Facts of Life and start thinking about the survival of the species, instead of his own personal butt, his species will disappear into the eternal torment of Extinction.

Ifr he does fac3 the facts of life, he could live for eternity, or at least as long as the cockroach which is now 225,000,000 years old.

And this has what, exactly, to do with anything we're talking about?

 

[cupid dave]

Cupid Dave: Yes, fairness does involve judgement. But my original quotes from the Bible were about judging fairly. Life might be unfair, but we shouldn't be.
------------------------------------------------

Be clear on what I said.

1) Your 4 Bible verses are wrong.
(I posted above the same 4 verses)



2) The word "fair" is NOT in the Bible.
Whatever translation you used perverted the actual scripture.

3) God want men to JUDGE in right ways (Righteousness).

Truth (not fairness) is at the base and foundation for Judgement.
Truth determines the right judgement, not some vague and dangerous liberal idea of "fairness."

 

[cupid dave]

And this has what, exactly, to do with anything we're talking about?

If I understand the conversation correctly, you are evaluating God by using a standard that measures how "nice" he has been to you and mankind, in general.

My point is that you are nisinterpreting the definition of God, and using the wrong Ruler by which to judge Him.

 

[selfinflikted]

If I understand the conversation correctly, you are evaluating God by using a standard that measures how "nice" he has been to you and mankind, in general.

My point is that you are nisinterpreting the definition of God, and using the wrong Ruler by which to judge Him.

No, I'm actually arguing god's responsibility for the state of... everything.

 

[cupid dave]

No, I'm actually arguing god's responsibility for the state of... everything.

?
State of exactly what ... "everything???"

I believe you are foolishly trying to say that, when we look at the consequences to our behavior as a species, we can complain that the "parent" or creator hasn't taken care of us as well as you would have expected.

This is the same point of view about Uncle Sam, in regard to Americans who might complain on the liberal side of issues.