What Power Does Satan Have?

[Ben12]

This brings up the idea of salvation. Automatically our mind thinks of the Cross, however; salvation is a much broader term. To the Hebrew, salvation was a reliance on God to overcome. Whether it was battle, famine, emotional struggle, politics, crossing the Red Sea or simply hoping to endure tumultuous times.

All throughout the scriptures we see people experiencing hardships and then having faith and calling on God for safety, rescue & victory. One of the bigger dilemmas was mans' separation from God. For it was impossible that the blood of bulls & goats remove sin and reconnect mankind with God. God knew that the Law - as Holy as it was - could not be a permanent solution.

Isaiah 59:2 & 16 - But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear. 16 And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him.

So God sent His son to earth to become man, defeat sin and become the perfect sacrifice so that God & man could once again dwell with eachother. His Son's name was Yeshua, which means Salvation. Finally, the prayers from hundreds of generations would come to pass in the first century.

By that time the apostles were tasked with revealing God's spiritual salvation to both the Jews & Gentiles:

2 Corinthians 6:2 - for He says," AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU."Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"--

Romans 10:10 - for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

2 Timothy 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus

So no, we simply do not close our eyes and will our way into a relationship with God - it's already been taken care of, centries ago. God, through grace - not our own works or will - provided the means. When we come to this sober realization; we have no choice but to put our faith in the grace that was provided and call out in praise to the salvation which was given to us. It is this epiphany that begins our relationship with the Father and spiritual walk with His Son.

-A

Big Amen; but I will also add God is not calling all people to salvation now; but each in their own order.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.


That is why we will become Kings and Priest unto to God for the remainder of all pagan people.

 

[Ben12]

And seeing you are so elegantly revealed Salvation thought out time I would like to also add; God had a savoir before Adam ever sinned.

1 Peter 1:19but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world,
but was manifest in these last times for you

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[k2svpete]

I agree that He was fully tempted . . . where Adam failed Christ conquered. A Sin nature was not required.

So here is the point to Kvs2pete . . . IF JESUS DID NOT HAVE THE FALLEN HUMAN NATURE, AND SATAN IS NOT A PERSON BUT THE FALLEN HUMAN NATURE AND PROPENSITY TO SIN, THEN HOW WAS HE TEMPTED BY IT?

If satan is just a abstract philosophical condition of the inner human evil brought on by the Fall of Adam (per Paul according to K-Pete) THEN JESUS IS TEMPTED BY WHOM IN THE WILDERNESS? If He has not the fallenness . . . then His temptation in the wilderness is by a REAL AND PERSONAL ENTITY and NOT some abstract concept of non-personal sin. IOW, in order for k-pete's contention to be RIGHT (that Satan is not a real entity but the personification of human Evil inherent within us all [IE the Fallen nature of humanity]) THEN JESUS MUST HAVE THAT SAME FALLEN NATURE IN ORDER TO BE TEMPTED BY IT IN THE WILDERNESS . . . and for that matter Adam must have the same fallen nature BEFORE THE FALL . . .

SO MY POINT? K-Pete's contention doesn't hold.

Now that I'm back.....

Christ was the son of man as well as the son of God. In order for Hebrews to be fulfilled regarding having a high priest temped in all areas as we are he must have had the human nature dwelling within in order to be tempted. It is this human nature, I maintain, that did the temping in the wilderness.

The human nature being the carnal mind, our propensity and desire to sin for self gratification and pride. As surely as Christ was a man he must have had this as part of his make-up. Through the emulation of God's characteristics and the Holy Spirit he resisted temptation and supressed the carnal mind. Without this, he could not possibly defeat death.

 

[squint]

Now that I'm back.....

Christ was the son of man as well as the son of God. In order for Hebrews to be fulfilled regarding having a high priest temped in all areas as we are he must have had the human nature dwelling within in order to be tempted. It is this human nature, I maintain, that did the temping in the wilderness.

You do understand that presentation was determined to be patently false some hundreds of years ago.

Your inescapable conclusion is that Jesus Christ was SATAN tempting Himself, which is a spirit of error and deception that you are under the influence of. I don't blame you for that working of course...but the spirit of error that promoted that prior is still here...and still working, which same was rightfully decried by Orthodoxy.

In addition, you also tried to say not too long ago that it was SOME OTHER PERSON that was tempting Christ. So in addition to being in error, you also flip flopped.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Now that I'm back.....

Christ was the son of man as well as the son of God. In order for Hebrews to be fulfilled regarding having a high priest temped in all areas as we are he must have had the human nature dwelling within in order to be tempted. It is this human nature, I maintain, that did the temping in the wilderness.

The human nature being the carnal mind, our propensity and desire to sin for self gratification and pride. As surely as Christ was a man he must have had this as part of his make-up. Through the emulation of God's characteristics and the Holy Spirit he resisted temptation and supressed the carnal mind. Without this, he could not possibly defeat death.

Um . . . no. Human nature is NOT synonymous with sin nature, propensity to sin, etc. Human nature unhampered is that which is BEFORE Adam's fall . . . which is what Christ is. The propensity to sin and carnal mind are aspects of ADAM'S CURSE . . . they are NOT aspects of original human nature.

Jesus conquerors where Adam failed . . . hence He conquerors as an UNFALLEN Human.

Your contention is that FALLEN human nature is personified in Satan . . . IOW Satan is not a REAL entity . . . Satan is a biblical metaphor for the carnality that all humanity partakes. The problem is that in order for your contention to be true . . . Adam must have an imperfect and fallen BEFORE his temptation . . . as well CHRIST must have a fallen nature in order for the temptation in the wilderness to be an actuality.

Christ having an UNFALLEN human nature does NOT preclude this. As I had said, Christ did not need to come in FALLEN humaness . . . all He needed to do was succeed where Adam failed so that all that enter into HIM partake in His success in conqueroring where sin entered into the Human Race.

 

[k2svpete]

Adam merely needed to be human, having the abililty to choose for himself. That was all that was required to allow for the possibility of him to sin. Christ also was of the same mould, posessing the same human weaknesses as all of us. So yes, he did indeed where Adam failed as he supressed his human desires and put God's will first.

 

[k2svpete]

Proved false by whom? Please provide some background on this.

I believe that what I had put forward previously was that it was Christ's human nature that was doing the tempting but it could possibly have been another person as well, both or one acting as an adversary (satan) to God's purpose.

 

[yashualover]

Adam merely needed to be human, having the abililty to choose for himself. That was all that was required to allow for the possibility of him to sin. Christ also was of the same mould, posessing the same human weaknesses as all of us. So yes, he did indeed where Adam failed as he supressed his human desires and put God's will first.

Yeshua has always been and therefore did not need to be recreated(ie from a seed in Marys womb), Yeshua has always been pure, holy and sinless and will always be holy, pure and sinless.

He was the perfect sacrifice, a spotless Lamb without blemish.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

You do understand that presentation was determined to be patently false some hundreds of years ago.

Your inescapable conclusion is that Jesus Christ was SATAN tempting Himself, which is a spirit of error and deception that you are under the influence of. I don't blame you for that working of course...but the spirit of error that promoted that prior is still here...and still working, which same was rightfully decried by Orthodoxy.

In addition, you also tried to say not too long ago that it was SOME OTHER PERSON that was tempting Christ. So in addition to being in error, you also flip flopped.

GOOD point!

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Proved false by whom? Please provide some background on this.

I believe that what I had put forward previously was that it was Christ's human nature that was doing the tempting but it could possibly have been another person as well, both or one acting as an adversary (satan) to God's purpose.

Again . . . your problem is that you have depicted TWO personalities within the ONE man tempting Himself . . . sorry dude but Jesus is NOT schizo.

As for Adam . . . true he was MERELY human . . . BUT NOT ONE OTHER PERSON IS. We are ALL flawed caricatures of what we are supposed to be. ONLY Christ came as the second Adam. So the "sin" as a carnal nature is NOT in Christ . . . nor was it in Adam PRIOR to his fall . . . so your contention fails. The temptation in the wilderness is a temptation to a nature NOT in Christ (according to your contention) and is thus NO temptation at all. No, rather the temptation in the wilderness is a TRUE temptation for the Second Adam to FAIL where the First Adam failed . . . BUT HE DID NOT (praise God). Therefore, the TEMPTER is NOT some carnal nature WITHIN the Tempted (Christ) but IS an alien personality seeking to INCITE WITHIN the Second Adam the sin which he incited into the FIRST Adam. The temptation in the wilderness is a temptation by a real foreign entity . . . this is inescapable.

 

[k2svpete]

Yeshua has always been and therefore did not need to be recreated(ie from a seed in Marys womb), Yeshua has always been pure, holy and sinless and will always be holy, pure and sinless.

He was the perfect sacrifice, a spotless Lamb without blemish.

So you deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Interesting concept.

 

[k2svpete]

Again . . . your problem is that you have depicted TWO personalities within the ONE man tempting Himself . . . sorry dude but Jesus is NOT schizo.

As for Adam . . . true he was MERELY human . . . BUT NOT ONE OTHER PERSON IS. We are ALL flawed caricatures of what we are supposed to be. ONLY Christ came as the second Adam. So the "sin" as a carnal nature is NOT in Christ . . . nor was it in Adam PRIOR to his fall . . . so your contention fails. The temptation in the wilderness is a temptation to a nature NOT in Christ (according to your contention) and is thus NO temptation at all. No, rather the temptation in the wilderness is a TRUE temptation for the Second Adam to FAIL where the First Adam failed . . . BUT HE DID NOT (praise God). Therefore, the TEMPTER is NOT some carnal nature WITHIN the Tempted (Christ) but IS an alien personality seeking to INCITE WITHIN the Second Adam the sin which he incited into the FIRST Adam. The temptation in the wilderness is a temptation by a real foreign entity . . . this is inescapable.

So do we have dwelling within the believer the remnants of sin, our carnal mind, and the spirit of God?

If so, that shoots down you two entities contention. Don't forget the nature of language used etc. You know better than that.

Ok, so at what point did the carnal mind develop within Adam. Was it after he sinned, while he was sinning or the moment he decided he would sin? Eve was deceived by another being, the serpent. She did the wrong thing but it was Adam who acted of his own accord and came in for the rebuke from God.

Now parallel that with the temptation of Christ in the wilderness.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So do we have dwelling within the believer the remnants of sin, our carnal mind, and the spirit of God?

If so, that shoots down you two entities contention. Don't forget the nature of language used etc. You know better than that.

Ok, so at what point did the carnal mind develop within Adam. Was it after he sinned, while he was sinning or the moment he decided he would sin? Eve was deceived by another being, the serpent. She did the wrong thing but it was Adam who acted of his own accord and came in for the rebuke from God.

Now parallel that with the temptation of Christ in the wilderness.

Uh, yes we have the remnant of the carnal mind and the Spirit of God . . . but this does not clash with the two entities concept. The two entities are SEPARATE ENTITIES. Our being and the distinct being of the Spirit of God. You are contending that you have TWO personalities that are the SAME personality . . . the Spirit within the believer and the believer are two personalities that are DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT personalities. So my refutation of YOUR contention still stands.

I do parallel the temptation of Christ and Adam . . . but where Adam failed and took on the fallen nature (that of spiritual death . . . IE separation from God) Christ did NOT fail. So whatever consequences came Adam's failure (no matter at what point) they are NOT attributable to Christ. Even so, PRIOR to Adam's choice, Adam is tempted . . . but this cannot be according to your contention about Satan . . . for in order for your contention to be true (IE satan not being a real entity but the personification of the fallen/carnal mind) . . . ADAM MUST HAVE THE CARNAL MIND FIRST . . . IOW Adam must have the fallen nature with all of its propensity to sin BEFORE He is even given this nature. But HE DOES NOT . . . SO YOUR CONTENTION ABOUT SATAN FAILS. The same is true with the temptation of Christ. Christ must have the same curse as Adam AFTER ADAM'S FALL in order to be tempted by the unredeemed nature . . . HE DOES NOT HAVE THIS NATURE. He had the UNTEMPTED nature of Adam prior to Adam's fall from grace that He may conquer where Adam failed . . . BUT HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE ENTERED INTO THE SAME PLACE AS ADAM AND EVE. It is by virtue of His sucess that WE partake in the SAME conquering . . . and are re-instated into fellowship with the Father. Jesus' experience of temptation is from this perspective . . . it is not needed for Him to have been carnal/fallen/spiritually dead . . . all He has to do to redeem us from the curse of Adam is succeed where Adam failed . . . this He did.

But the point still remains . . . IT IS NOT A TEMPTATION OF THE FALLEN NATURE WITHIN . . . it is a real external temptation by a evil entity that is foreign from the one being tempted (in either Adam or Christ's case). YOUR CONTENTION ABOUT THE DEVIL IS WRONG. He is a REAL entity . . . and it is this real entity that tempted both the First Adam who failed and the Second Adam who succeeded.

As for the nature of language . . . I have violated nothing.

Pax

 

[yashualover]

So you deny that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Interesting concept.

1Pe 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things like silver or gold that you have been ransomed from the worthless way of life handed down to you by your ancestors,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or defect.
1Pe 1:20 On the one hand, he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but on the other hand, he was revealed at the end of time for your sake.

 

[k2svpete]

1Pe 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things like silver or gold that you have been ransomed from the worthless way of life handed down to you by your ancestors,
1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or defect.
1Pe 1:20 On the one hand, he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but on the other hand, he was revealed at the end of time for your sake.

Right. Christ was foreknown, ie. God knew what was going to and had to happen from the beginning, but Christ did not come to existence until he was born, the revealed part of that verse.

Jesus Christ is the SON of God, not God himself. That is why I flagged your earlier post.

 

[k2svpete]

Uh, yes we have the remnant of the carnal mind and the Spirit of God . . . but this does not clash with the two entities concept. The two entities are SEPARATE ENTITIES. Our being and the distinct being of the Spirit of God. You are contending that you have TWO personalities that are the SAME personality . . . the Spirit within the believer and the believer are two personalities that are DISTINCT AND DIFFERENT personalities. So my refutation of YOUR contention still stands.

I am not contending that the two entities are the same personality. Yes the Spirit dwells in Christ's people but so does the remnant of our carnal selves. Each of us goes through the daily struggle to be Christ like in spite of the carnal nature.

I do parallel the temptation of Christ and Adam . . . but where Adam failed and took on the fallen nature (that of spiritual death . . . IE separation from God) Christ did NOT fail. So whatever consequences came Adam's failure (no matter at what point) they are NOT attributable to Christ. Even so, PRIOR to Adam's choice, Adam is tempted . . . but this cannot be according to your contention about Satan . . . for in order for your contention to be true (IE satan not being a real entity but the personification of the fallen/carnal mind) . . . ADAM MUST HAVE THE CARNAL MIND FIRST . . . IOW Adam must have the fallen nature with all of its propensity to sin BEFORE He is even given this nature. But HE DOES NOT . . . SO YOUR CONTENTION ABOUT SATAN FAILS.

Adam was not tempted though, he flat out disobeyed. Eve was deceived by the serpent (no bible anywhere says Satan). Pride, that was Adam's undoing. He listened to Eve and thought he knew better than God. Adam had the propensity to make a choice. He chose himself over God and that is why he sinned.

The same is true with the temptation of Christ. Christ must have the same curse as Adam AFTER ADAM'S FALL in order to be tempted by the unredeemed nature . . . HE DOES NOT HAVE THIS NATURE. He had the UNTEMPTED nature of Adam prior to Adam's fall from grace that He may conquer where Adam failed . . . BUT HE IS THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE ENTERED INTO THE SAME PLACE AS ADAM AND EVE. It is by virtue of His sucess that WE partake in the SAME conquering . . . and are re-instated into fellowship with the Father. Jesus' experience of temptation is from this perspective . . . it is not needed for Him to have been carnal/fallen/spiritually dead . . . all He has to do to redeem us from the curse of Adam is succeed where Adam failed . . . this He did.

Indeed he did but his temptation came again from pride, the whole created being above the creator gig. Note that all the temptations were out of elements of scripture that were all true. To fulfill them at that time would have been in conflict with God's plan, which Christ knew even then as he was aware of all the scripture. Christ had to make himself subject to God's will but he had the HS without measure, he could have done any of the points of temptation and fulfilled them himself but that would have been pride interfering with God's plan.

But the point still remains . . . IT IS NOT A TEMPTATION OF THE FALLEN NATURE WITHIN . . . it is a real external temptation by a evil entity that is foreign from the one being tempted (in either Adam or Christ's case). YOUR CONTENTION ABOUT THE DEVIL IS WRONG. He is a REAL entity . . . and it is this real entity that tempted both the First Adam who failed and the Second Adam who succeeded.

Pax

The bible doesn't agree with your assertion mate, James is pretty clear -

James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

So we are tempted by our own desires, not by an external evil entity.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Right. Christ was foreknown, ie. God knew what was going to and had to happen from the beginning, but Christ did not come to existence until he was born, the revealed part of that verse.

Jesus Christ is the SON of God, not God himself. That is why I flagged your earlier post.

Uh . . . not so dude. John 8:58 and 1:1 places Christ as pre-existent.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I am not contending that the two entities are the same personality. Yes the Spirit dwells in Christ's people but so does the remnant of our carnal selves. Each of us goes through the daily struggle to be Christ like in spite of the carnal nature.



Adam was not tempted though, he flat out disobeyed. Eve was deceived by the serpent (no bible anywhere says Satan). Pride, that was Adam's undoing. He listened to Eve and thought he knew better than God. Adam had the propensity to make a choice. He chose himself over God and that is why he sinned.



Indeed he did but his temptation came again from pride, the whole created being above the creator gig. Note that all the temptations were out of elements of scripture that were all true. To fulfill them at that time would have been in conflict with God's plan, which Christ knew even then as he was aware of all the scripture. Christ had to make himself subject to God's will but he had the HS without measure, he could have done any of the points of temptation and fulfilled them himself but that would have been pride interfering with God's plan.



The bible doesn't agree with your assertion mate, James is pretty clear -

James 1
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

So we are tempted by our own desires, not by an external evil entity.

Uh . . . you must reconcile all of scripture . . . hermeneutics 101 . . . otherwise you are prooftexting. You cannot interpret James isolated from the rest of the Bible. So James must be reconciled with the vast array of other scriptures which depict an evil sentient being called Satan, and the Devil AND CALLED THE SERPENT BY JOHN IN REVELATION WHICH IS THE CONNECTIVE TO GEN 3 (BTW).

I agree that we are tempted from within . . . but that is not all the Bible says about the issue. So you mate, are not hermeneutically sound.

 

[EternalSummer]

How much temptation comes from ourselves and how much comes from the devil? Or maybe this should be a different thread.

 

[k2svpete]

Uh . . . you must reconcile all of scripture . . . hermeneutics 101 . . . otherwise you are prooftexting. You cannot interpret James isolated from the rest of the Bible. So James must be reconciled with the vast array of other scriptures which depict an evil sentient being called Satan, and the Devil AND CALLED THE SERPENT BY JOHN IN REVELATION WHICH IS THE CONNECTIVE TO GEN 3 (BTW).

I agree that we are tempted from within . . . but that is not all the Bible says about the issue. So you mate, are not hermeneutically sound.

No not at all. When James is read in conjunction with the other scriptures it is patently clear that temptation comes from within. The carnal mind is at enmity with God as Paul tells us in Romans. So the carnal mind is a satan to God's plan. Satan = adversary, devil = accuser.

As we all know, God is unchanging and his plan has been the same since time began and his word is not contradictory. Given that, passages such as James and Romans, written plainly shed light on the language and typology used in other passages.