What Power Does Satan Have?

[k2svpete]

Uh . . . not so dude. John 8:58 and 1:1 places Christ as pre-existent.

That my friend is open for debate and one that has been done many times before.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

No not at all. When James is read in conjunction with the other scriptures it is patently clear that temptation comes from within. The carnal mind is at enmity with God as Paul tells us in Romans. So the carnal mind is a satan to God's plan. Satan = adversary, devil = accuser.

As we all know, God is unchanging and his plan has been the same since time began and his word is not contradictory. Given that, passages such as James and Romans, written plainly shed light on the language and typology used in other passages.

Not so . . . you have taken 2 passages and interpreted some foisted concept of your own. James mentions Demons and Satan . . . so your own interpretation fails even within the same author.

Your contention cannot be tenably held with the entire gamut of scripture.

To create an entire doctrine that is so patently false in light of the THOUSANDS of other passages based on TWO is great error . . . sorry.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

That my friend is open for debate and one that has been done many times before.

Uh not really . . . The Greek is as clear as a bell. You may not believe Jesus is God with some fancy but less than convincing hermeneutical ballet (like the JW's) . . . but you cannot deny His pre-existence based on the Greek. THAT IS FACT.

 

[Kristos]

Satan only has the same power as Pontus Pilate.

 

[yashualover]

Satan only has the same power as Pontus Pilate.

Satan has power only as Yaveh allows him. Since he is a fallen angel his powers far exceed human abilities.

 

[yashualover]

Satan only has the same power as Pontus Pilate.

Yes right, as God wills.

 

[Hagnismos]

I cannot find an instance in the Bible were a fallen angel has the ability to actually do physical things, though the obedient angels most certainly do. An angel rolled the stone away from the tomb of Jesus,... there are many other instances.

Does that mean that Satan cannot get such a control over your mind that you see what he wants you to see, and perhaps do what he suggests? That is probably a good description of demonic possession.

If someone can show some verses about demons having any physical authority unless they are controlling ahuman host I would like to see it. I know the doctrines around this pretty well and can't recall even a single verse that suggests that demons can control the weather, or tape recorders, or birds or beasts etc. The devil gets mileage out of our imaginations. As for believers you would have to leave yourself open to it.

 

[yashualover]

I cannot find an instance in the Bible were a fallen angel has the ability to actually do physical things, though the obedient angels most certainly do. An angel rolled the stone away from the tomb of Jesus,... there are many other instances.

Does that mean that Satan cannot get such a control over your mind that you see what he wants you to see, and perhaps do what he suggests? That is probably a good description of demonic possession.

If someone can show some verses about demons having any physical authority unless they are controlling ahuman host I would like to see it. I know the doctrines around this pretty well and can't recall even a single verse that suggests that demons can control the weather, or tape recorders, or birds or beasts etc. The devil gets mileage out of our imaginations. As for believers you would have to leave yourself open to it.

Fallen angels most certainly have and use supernatural powers for destructive and deceptive purposes.

Satan is in control of all unbelievers.

That being said, Satan can do absolutely nothing without the permition of YHVH. YHVH creates guide lines and Satan knows what his guidelines are.

Ultimately YHWH is in complete control of the will of man, saved or unsaved.

I dont know of any scriptures off hand showing Satan's supernatural abilities but I know there are plenty.

Will search later I don't have time now.

 

[Hagnismos]

Fallen angels most certainly have and use supernatural powers for destructive and deceptive purposes.

Satan is in control of all unbelievers.

That being said, Satan can do absolutely nothing without the permition of YHVH. YHVH creates guide lines and Satan knows what his guidelines are.

Ultimately YHWH is in complete control of the will of man, saved or unsaved.

I don't think I disgree with that. What I am saying is that unlike faithful angels fallen angels need a human host to affect the physical world. Any apparent physical effects from the presence of a demon is a deception. It really matters little since believers have authority over the spirits, and of course God is Sovereign.

But if you can prove that demons have power of physical things not through the human hands they influence please do so.

God's best,

Hagnismos

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I cannot find an instance in the Bible were a fallen angel has the ability to actually do physical things, though the obedient angels most certainly do. An angel rolled the stone away from the tomb of Jesus,... there are many other instances.

Does that mean that Satan cannot get such a control over your mind that you see what he wants you to see, and perhaps do what he suggests? That is probably a good description of demonic possession.

If someone can show some verses about demons having any physical authority unless they are controlling ahuman host I would like to see it. I know the doctrines around this pretty well and can't recall even a single verse that suggests that demons can control the weather, or tape recorders, or birds or beasts etc. The devil gets mileage out of our imaginations. As for believers you would have to leave yourself open to it.

Satan taking Jesus to the temple mount . . . Job's buddy Eliphaz having a vision in which the apparition passed before his face . . . Satan arguing with Michael over the bones of Moses . . . the multiple passages in the NT where demons cause sickness . . . Paul's thorn in the flesh . . . et al

 

[Hagnismos]

Satan taking Jesus to the temple mount . . . Job's buddy Eliphaz having a vision in which the apparition passed before his face . . . Satan arguing with Michael over the bones of Moses . . . the multiple passages in the NT where demons cause sickness . . . Paul's thorn in the flesh . . . et al

Hey how are ya?

I'm not trying to start a new doctrine here. When the devil makes someone sick that would be through the power of sin to enter into that body. When the devil fights against the bones of Moses, that is in the spiritual realm and we do not know exactly what that means. It could mean that the devil inspired men to try to find the bones of Moses so they could set up a shrine that would surely have lead to idolatry. Any vision or other encounter with demons in the Bible could be caused by their ability to use our imaginations against us. Show me one instance in the Bible where it is verified that a demon causes a thunderstorm, or possesses an animal, or moves object around in the room, or even makes the air cold. I think most of what we call demon possession is a wierd hollywood version. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it all.

I know Jesus spoke of the woman who touched His robe as having been bound by Satan for many years. How as she bound. And why does every ministry today that casts out demons end being a carnival sideshow.

I think you see what I am getting at. I have been around the church for a long time now and I have never seen a ministry that could consistently recognize demons and consistently cast them out. But the disciples returned to Jesus rejoicing that even the demons were subject to them in His Name.

I know that I for instance having ever seen a truly manifest demonic presence as described in the Exorcist etc. would immediately become 180% devoted to prayer and whatever else it took to fight that battle. Why is God allowing the devil to get so much mileage out of pretending of convincing us he does not exist.

The demons very often ran over from hundreds of yards away just to cry out that they knew who Jesus was. When was the last time that happened to you? I am remined of the Keith Green song 'No one believes in me anymore(Satan's boast)'

I hope that helps explain my post. I'm very familiar with the passage in the Bible that speak about these things, it's just there seems to be a great descrepancy between the Bible and the present age and I want to understand why. Being able to identify the devil and cast him out for real would be a big deal, and it is a sign Jesus promised those who knew Him would do (Mark 14.)

God's best,

Hagnismos

 

[Hismessenger]

If no one has said it, the book of Revelation speaks of miracles and wonders that Satan will cause to happen. But! He has no power other than what God gives to Him, just as Christ said to Herod or Pontius Pilate. You could have no power unless my father, who is in heaven, gives to you.

The only thing that Satan can do is deceive you and cause you to think that you have another choice besides life. When God said choose life, it wasn't a suggestion, It was His will and command. Once you have chosen, you no longer have any choices. That one choice removes you from self and places you in Christ, who leads you by His spirit.

hismessenger

 

[Hagnismos]

If no one has said it, the book of Revelation speaks of miracles and wonders that Satan will cause to happen. But! He has no power other than what God gives to Him, just as Christ said to Herod or Pontius Pilate. You could have no power unless my father, who is in heaven, gives to you.

The only thing that Satan can do is deceive you and cause you to think that you have another choice besides life. When God said choose life, it wasn't a suggestion, It was His will and command. Once you have chosen, you no longer have any choices. That one choice removes you from self and places you in Christ, who leads you by His spirit.

hismessenger

Those lying wonders could be scientific advancements like holographic Internet connections (coming very soon BTW) and the modern world basically, laser, tasers, and joy sticks.

This is not an accusation, but I think we are sort of avoiding the question. Does satan ever have the ability to directly manipulate the physical world except by the hand of humans over whom he has control? Show an example of this in Scripture.

I do appreciate the references you all have given, but if we have to say 'it might be.' it is not a reference that really answers the question.

Another example might be the Witch and Saul. Did she actually call forth the Spirit of Samuel. No solid theologian I know of believes that because it would imply that there is power in witchcraft over the souls of the righteous dead. Then again it could be that God worked a miracle to stop Saul in his tracks and the witch had nothing to do with it. Then it could be that it was not Samuel at all but a demon still constrined to speak God's judgment. God is Sovereign. So then when I think about casting out a demon it is not just about releasing someone from bondage, they need to hear the gospel or the last state of them will be worse than the first. We have authority over the spirits in Jesus Name. But look, how do some end saying Lord, Lord, we cast out demons in your Name? One of the most dangerous things a person can do is attempt to cast out a demon when they are not mature enough in the Lord to offer a true Christian example. Does anyone see what I am getting at here? To have a ministry that is aware enough and grounded enough to cast out demons what does it really take? Do we deny Mark 14? 'In my name they shall cast out demons'

The older I get the more I look wide eyed at the presumption of my Christian youth. Not that the exuberance of my new faith was not used by God, but some of the things I attempted presumptuoulsy I was in no way ready to do. But somehow it feels like the chain was broken along time ago, I should be able to find ministries of that caliber, of that power, where are they?

The church has been pummeled by sin and the devil almost since day one. Overcomer is a big cliche word but where are the overcomers? To live godly in this present age is victory, but the Bible also promises even more, that with eyes wide open we should see things as they truly are, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. These things are part of my ongoing walk with the Lord, to press in. My flesh does not want it, it in greivious in that sense. But my spirit keeps calling for more of God. It is not like I do not know the Bible, I know it well, but to be nearer to God today (in a real way) than I was yesterday, a part deep inside me desires it more than anything else.

Here are a few facts as I see them from the Bible about casting out demons.

1) The enemy still possesses and oppresses humans today

2) The church by in large would not recognize a demonic presence if it was hit over the head with it.

3) The Bible says the true church will cast out demons in Jesus Name

4) the spiritual realm is intimately associated with the physical, angels are among us working but we are largely unaware of their presence.

5) Many of the saints of the Bible were well aware of both demons and angels, as well as God's voice.

Is it true that we get the church we settle for. We get the life in Christ we seek. I am praying for a revival in America that does not fade, a deeper view of it all than we have ever seen before.

I am not talking about adding anything to the Bible, just no longer ignoring the parts that don't seem to apply when my life is based upon a mediocre faith.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Those lying wonders could be scientific advancements like holographic Internet connections (coming very soon BTW) and the modern world basically, laser, tasers, and joy sticks.

This is not an accusation, but I think we are sort of avoiding the question. Does satan ever have the ability to directly manipulate the physical world except by the hand of humans over whom he has control? Show an example of this in Scripture.

I do appreciate the references you all have given, but if we have to say 'it might be.' it is not a reference that really answers the question.

Another example might be the Witch and Saul. Did she actually call forth the Spirit of Samuel. No solid theologian I know of believes that because it would imply that there is power in witchcraft over the souls of the righteous dead. Then again it could be that God worked a miracle to stop Saul in his tracks and the witch had nothing to do with it. Then it could be that it was not Samuel at all but a demon still constrined to speak God's judgment. God is Sovereign. So then when I think about casting out a demon it is not just about releasing someone from bondage, they need to hear the gospel or the last state of them will be worse than the first. We have authority over the spirits in Jesus Name. But look, how do some end saying Lord, Lord, we cast out demons in your Name? One of the most dangerous things a person can do is attempt to cast out a demon when they are not mature enough in the Lord to offer a true Christian example. Does anyone see what I am getting at here? To have a ministry that is aware enough and grounded enough to cast out demons what does it really take? Do we deny Mark 14? 'In my name they shall cast out demons'

The older I get the more I look wide eyed at the presumption of my Christian youth. Not that the exuberance of my new faith was not used by God, but some of the things I attempted presumptuoulsy I was in no way ready to do. But somehow it feels like the chain was broken along time ago, I should be able to find ministries of that caliber, of that power, where are they?

The church has been pummeled by sin and the devil almost since day one. Overcomer is a big cliche word but where are the overcomers? To live godly in this present age is victory, but the Bible also promises even more, that with eyes wide open we should see things as they truly are, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. These things are part of my ongoing walk with the Lord, to press in. My flesh does not want it, it in greivious in that sense. But my spirit keeps calling for more of God. It is not like I do not know the Bible, I know it well, but to be nearer to God today (in a real way) than I was yesterday, a part deep inside me desires it more than anything else.

Here are a few facts as I see them from the Bible about casting out demons.

1) The enemy still possesses and oppresses humans today

2) The church by in large would not recognize a demonic presence if it was hit over the head with it.

3) The Bible says the true church will cast out demons in Jesus Name

4) the spiritual realm is intimately associated with the physical, angels are among us working but we are largely unaware of their presence.

5) Many of the saints of the Bible were well aware of both demons and angels, as well as God's voice.

Is it true that we get the church we settle for. We get the life in Christ we seek. I am praying for a revival in America that does not fade, a deeper view of it all than we have ever seen before.

I am not talking about adding anything to the Bible, just no longer ignoring the parts that don't seem to apply when my life is based upon a mediocre faith.

Not holographic advances. That is not the Greek words. The words are the same for signs and wonders throughout the text of the Bible . . . it is miraculous power.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hey how are ya?

I'm not trying to start a new doctrine here. When the devil makes someone sick that would be through the power of sin to enter into that body. When the devil fights against the bones of Moses, that is in the spiritual realm and we do not know exactly what that means. It could mean that the devil inspired men to try to find the bones of Moses so they could set up a shrine that would surely have lead to idolatry. Any vision or other encounter with demons in the Bible could be caused by their ability to use our imaginations against us. Show me one instance in the Bible where it is verified that a demon causes a thunderstorm, or possesses an animal, or moves object around in the room, or even makes the air cold. I think most of what we call demon possession is a wierd hollywood version. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it all.

I know Jesus spoke of the woman who touched His robe as having been bound by Satan for many years. How as she bound. And why does every ministry today that casts out demons end being a carnival sideshow.

I think you see what I am getting at. I have been around the church for a long time now and I have never seen a ministry that could consistently recognize demons and consistently cast them out. But the disciples returned to Jesus rejoicing that even the demons were subject to them in His Name.

I know that I for instance having ever seen a truly manifest demonic presence as described in the Exorcist etc. would immediately become 180% devoted to prayer and whatever else it took to fight that battle. Why is God allowing the devil to get so much mileage out of pretending of convincing us he does not exist.

The demons very often ran over from hundreds of yards away just to cry out that they knew who Jesus was. When was the last time that happened to you? I am remined of the Keith Green song 'No one believes in me anymore(Satan's boast)'

I hope that helps explain my post. I'm very familiar with the passage in the Bible that speak about these things, it's just there seems to be a great descrepancy between the Bible and the present age and I want to understand why. Being able to identify the devil and cast him out for real would be a big deal, and it is a sign Jesus promised those who knew Him would do (Mark 14.)

God's best,

Hagnismos

Animals . . . uh the herd of swine?

Consumption of Moses . . . Michael went to get the bones . . . Satan resisted him. To read more into the text is presumption.

Satan again and again inflicts sickness and disease . . . pretty clear arguement. He affects believers as well as non-believers with illness abound. That is rock solid evidence.

Have you ever been part of a deliverance? I have . . . done some personally . . . have you ever been in a home that has had demonic manifestations? I have . . . seen em first hand. No psycho-somatic mind games at all.

You are wary of the "holllywood" i-zation of the whole thing? Good . . . then keep a good balance of the doctrine of sin involved to know what is of the enemy and what is of the flesh in any given situation. But be not decieved . . . demons do what they do. Nothing in Scripture negates these experiences.

Manipulation of air . . . Again Eliphaz's encounter.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Those lying wonders could be scientific advancements like holographic Internet connections (coming very soon BTW) and the modern world basically, laser, tasers, and joy sticks.

This is not an accusation, but I think we are sort of avoiding the question. Does satan ever have the ability to directly manipulate the physical world except by the hand of humans over whom he has control? Show an example of this in Scripture.

I do appreciate the references you all have given, but if we have to say 'it might be.' it is not a reference that really answers the question.

Another example might be the Witch and Saul. Did she actually call forth the Spirit of Samuel. No solid theologian I know of believes that because it would imply that there is power in witchcraft over the souls of the righteous dead. Then again it could be that God worked a miracle to stop Saul in his tracks and the witch had nothing to do with it. Then it could be that it was not Samuel at all but a demon still constrined to speak God's judgment. God is Sovereign. So then when I think about casting out a demon it is not just about releasing someone from bondage, they need to hear the gospel or the last state of them will be worse than the first. We have authority over the spirits in Jesus Name. But look, how do some end saying Lord, Lord, we cast out demons in your Name? One of the most dangerous things a person can do is attempt to cast out a demon when they are not mature enough in the Lord to offer a true Christian example. Does anyone see what I am getting at here? To have a ministry that is aware enough and grounded enough to cast out demons what does it really take? Do we deny Mark 14? 'In my name they shall cast out demons'

The older I get the more I look wide eyed at the presumption of my Christian youth. Not that the exuberance of my new faith was not used by God, but some of the things I attempted presumptuoulsy I was in no way ready to do. But somehow it feels like the chain was broken along time ago, I should be able to find ministries of that caliber, of that power, where are they?

The church has been pummeled by sin and the devil almost since day one. Overcomer is a big cliche word but where are the overcomers? To live godly in this present age is victory, but the Bible also promises even more, that with eyes wide open we should see things as they truly are, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. These things are part of my ongoing walk with the Lord, to press in. My flesh does not want it, it in greivious in that sense. But my spirit keeps calling for more of God. It is not like I do not know the Bible, I know it well, but to be nearer to God today (in a real way) than I was yesterday, a part deep inside me desires it more than anything else.

Here are a few facts as I see them from the Bible about casting out demons.

1) The enemy still possesses and oppresses humans today

2) The church by in large would not recognize a demonic presence if it was hit over the head with it.

3) The Bible says the true church will cast out demons in Jesus Name

4) the spiritual realm is intimately associated with the physical, angels are among us working but we are largely unaware of their presence.

5) Many of the saints of the Bible were well aware of both demons and angels, as well as God's voice.

Is it true that we get the church we settle for. We get the life in Christ we seek. I am praying for a revival in America that does not fade, a deeper view of it all than we have ever seen before.

I am not talking about adding anything to the Bible, just no longer ignoring the parts that don't seem to apply when my life is based upon a mediocre faith.

Another example might be the Witch and Saul. Did she actually call forth the Spirit of Samuel. No solid theologian I know of believes that because it would imply that there is power in witchcraft over the souls of the righteous dead.

Then they would not be solid theologians . . . they would be more convinced by the westernization of Christianity and their presuppositions then by the text of the Scriptures. It says what it says.

BTW, the term "possession" is BAD.

 

[Hagnismos]

Not holographic advances. That is not the Greek words. The words are the same for signs and wonders throughout the text of the Bible . . . it is miraculous power.

They did not have words for the stuff we have today, it would have to be interpreted as signs and wonders. Comparing the wheel to a nuclear weapon in the ancient mind would be no comparison at all. How could they understand? Anyways, I am not claiming to be right, just inquisitive. You seem pretty hardcore, are you speaking from experience? I have had some experiences, both with the power of God (of course) and the enemy, but I have never seen anything that suggests Satan has power beyond the people He is able to control. I have seen many people though change their behavior dramatically and in ways that suggest the presence of demon in their lives.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Those lying wonders could be scientific advancements like holographic Internet connections (coming very soon BTW) and the modern world basically, laser, tasers, and joy sticks.

This is not an accusation, but I think we are sort of avoiding the question. Does satan ever have the ability to directly manipulate the physical world except by the hand of humans over whom he has control? Show an example of this in Scripture.

I do appreciate the references you all have given, but if we have to say 'it might be.' it is not a reference that really answers the question.

Another example might be the Witch and Saul. Did she actually call forth the Spirit of Samuel. No solid theologian I know of believes that because it would imply that there is power in witchcraft over the souls of the righteous dead. Then again it could be that God worked a miracle to stop Saul in his tracks and the witch had nothing to do with it. Then it could be that it was not Samuel at all but a demon still constrined to speak God's judgment. God is Sovereign. So then when I think about casting out a demon it is not just about releasing someone from bondage, they need to hear the gospel or the last state of them will be worse than the first. We have authority over the spirits in Jesus Name. But look, how do some end saying Lord, Lord, we cast out demons in your Name? One of the most dangerous things a person can do is attempt to cast out a demon when they are not mature enough in the Lord to offer a true Christian example. Does anyone see what I am getting at here? To have a ministry that is aware enough and grounded enough to cast out demons what does it really take? Do we deny Mark 14? 'In my name they shall cast out demons'

The older I get the more I look wide eyed at the presumption of my Christian youth. Not that the exuberance of my new faith was not used by God, but some of the things I attempted presumptuoulsy I was in no way ready to do. But somehow it feels like the chain was broken along time ago, I should be able to find ministries of that caliber, of that power, where are they?

The church has been pummeled by sin and the devil almost since day one. Overcomer is a big cliche word but where are the overcomers? To live godly in this present age is victory, but the Bible also promises even more, that with eyes wide open we should see things as they truly are, you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. These things are part of my ongoing walk with the Lord, to press in. My flesh does not want it, it in greivious in that sense. But my spirit keeps calling for more of God. It is not like I do not know the Bible, I know it well, but to be nearer to God today (in a real way) than I was yesterday, a part deep inside me desires it more than anything else.

Here are a few facts as I see them from the Bible about casting out demons.

1) The enemy still possesses and oppresses humans today

2) The church by in large would not recognize a demonic presence if it was hit over the head with it.

3) The Bible says the true church will cast out demons in Jesus Name

4) the spiritual realm is intimately associated with the physical, angels are among us working but we are largely unaware of their presence.

5) Many of the saints of the Bible were well aware of both demons and angels, as well as God's voice.

Is it true that we get the church we settle for. We get the life in Christ we seek. I am praying for a revival in America that does not fade, a deeper view of it all than we have ever seen before.

I am not talking about adding anything to the Bible, just no longer ignoring the parts that don't seem to apply when my life is based upon a mediocre faith.

Uh no. The words for signs and wonders are the same for the supernatural work of the Spirit. One could hardly say that people would be decieved in religious devotion (en masse) to simple scientific break throughs. No, these signs and wonders are the same as those in the Scripture . . . supernatural miracles. Linguisitically there is NO way around it.

Not to mention hermeneutically, it has to be something that THE ORIGINAL audience would have conceived of . . . certainly not holograms or the internet.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

They did not have words for the stuff we have today, it would have to be interpreted as signs and wonders. Comparing the wheel to a nuclear weapon in the ancient mind would be no comparison at all. How could they understand? Anyways, I am not claiming to be right, just inquisitive. You seem pretty hardcore, are you speaking from experience? I have had some experiences, both with the power of God (of course) and the enemy, but I have never seen anything that suggests Satan has power beyond the people He is able to control. I have seen many people though change their behavior dramatically and in ways that suggest the presence of demon in their lives.

I have . . . seen doors thrown open. Movements of shadows, etc.

My wife has seen first hand the welts brought upon her little sister from a demonic manifestation.

Hermeneutics requires that whatever was said to the original recipients and their understanding is what needs to be the meaning of the text. Like the demons from the pit in revelation being stinger missles . . . no. They are demons, that is how they were understood by the first audience . . . that is how we understand them now. Remember that these signs and wonders are given to DECIEVE EVEN THE ELECT (if possible) . . . these are religious connotations . . . I could hardly see many Christians being decieved into religious devotion to tnaks and computers (at least in active idolatry). No, the hallmark of these events will be supernatural and otherworldy . . . as the words mean . . . and religious in nature.

 

[Hagnismos]

I have . . . seen doors thrown open. Movements of shadows, etc.

My wife has seen first hand the welts brought upon her little sister from a demonic manifestation.

Hermeneutics requires that whatever was said to the original recipients and their understanding is what needs to be the meaning of the text. Like the demons from the pit in revelation being stinger missles . . . no. They are demons, that is how they were understood by the first audience . . . that is how we understand them now. Remember that these signs and wonders are given to DECIEVE EVEN THE ELECT (if possible) . . . these are religious connotations . . . I could hardly see many Christians being decieved into religious devotion to tnaks and computers (at least in active idolatry). No, the hallmark of these events will be supernatural and otherworldy . . . as the words mean . . . and religious in nature.

So you would not be one to interpret Revelation as being a best description of perhaps nuclear warfare, or the impacts of global warming, or peak oil?