What Power Does Satan Have?

[Mathetes the kerux]

Think about what you've just written. If Jesus was not subject to the flesh then how could he be tempted? How could he fulfill the law if he was not subject to it?

Your statement is in direct conflict with scripture and makes Christ's sacrifice meaningless. That is very dangerous ground you're walking on.

Uh . . . no. Christ not having a fallen nature is part of the perfection of the sacrifice.

Jesus was subjected to the same state of untested humanity as Adam . . . but He was not fallen. Where Adam and hence all have failed in Adam, Christ conquered. The Adamic Fall does not apply to Christ.

So, since the FALLEN nature is NOT in Christ, then HOW DOES THE FALLEN NATURE TEMPT HIM?

Better yet, since Adam was not fallen PRIOR to his temptation . . . how is it that a fallen nature tempts him before the FALL!?

Can you answer my questions? Cause if not, then your hypothesis fails.

 

[greatnut]

Uh . . . no. Christ not having a fallen nature is part of the perfection of the sacrifice.

Jesus was subjected to the same state of untested humanity as Adam . . . but He was not fallen. Where Adam and hence all have failed in Adam, Christ conquered. The Adamic Fall does not apply to Christ.

So, since the FALLEN nature is NOT in Christ, then HOW DOES THE FALLEN NATURE TEMPT HIM?

Better yet, since Adam was not fallen PRIOR to his temptation . . . how is it that a fallen nature tempts him before the FALL!?

Can you answer my questions? Cause if not, then your hypothesis fails.

Man is born wanting to do his own will. That is our "nature". Some call it "fallen" - but it was present even in Adam and Eve (hence they did their own will, and fell).

What Satan does is encourage us to indulge ourselves and our will. Thus the whole pressure of society (very visible on TV) is to promote the idea that it is wonderful and good that we are independent and hard-boiled, self-willed.

Satan only has power to suggest - not to force. Sometimes - as with Job - God gives him permission to affect our circumstances too - but that is the rare exception. Mostly, Satan just encourages our natural selfishness.

When Satan is released after the Millennium - folks are "stirred up" to give into their natural desire to rebel and not conform to Christ's will. God allows us to be tempted so that we will resist our will, Satan's will, the flesh and the world. That way, like working against resistance in a gym, we build spiritual character with God as our trainer.

 

[armothe]

Bloodtypes are traced from the biological Father . . . since Jesus' father is not a fallen human male . . . then Christ is not either.

Ha! I suppose then we can track down that pesky old sin-gene in our DNA and wipe it out!

-A

 

[armothe]

Yep . . . that is the point of the cross.

So you agree that God commands the impossible? What happened to this sovereign God you are always talking about? Unless you are a universalist, the cross solves nothing for those who aren't elect.

-A

 

[armothe]

Jesus was subjected to the same state of untested humanity as Adam . . . but He was not fallen. So, since the FALLEN nature is NOT in Christ, then HOW DOES THE FALLEN NATURE TEMPT HIM?

But Christ was tempted (in every aspect we are).

Heb 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Romans 8:3 - For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

Fortunately for us, He is the only person to have resisted.

-A

 

[Ben12]

The fallen nature in Adams case was spiritual immaturity, spiritual innocence; Adam was like a three year old child playing next to an interstate; he had to fall; it was God’s Will. I am a Christian Universalist.

 

[k2svpete]

Armothe has already posted up the very scriptures I was going to in response to your challenge Mathetes.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Armothe has already posted up the very scriptures I was going to in response to your challenge Mathetes.

My challenge is to your syllogism . . . DID CHRIST HAVE A FALLEN SIN NATURE? The texts that he posted have nothing to do with the question.

Does Christ have a fallen sin nature or not?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

But Christ was tempted (in every aspect we are).

Heb 4:15 - For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Romans 8:3 - For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh.

Fortunately for us, He is the only person to have resisted.

-A

Truly . . . yet these passages don't address my question.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

So you agree that God commands the impossible? What happened to this sovereign God you are always talking about? Unless you are a universalist, the cross solves nothing for those who aren't elect.

-A

The cross solves the issue of sin only for those who accept Christ . . . otherwise it is the sign of condemnation for those who reject Christ. God's sovereignty has nothing to do with it aside from His chosen route to Himself.

God does command the impossible . . . hence Christ does the impossible in man's stead . . . and we are pardoned only as we stand in Christ.

 

[armothe]

My challenge is to your syllogism . . . DID CHRIST HAVE A FALLEN SIN NATURE?

Of course not, because such a thing doesn't exist.

The perfection of His sacrifice was solidified in the fact that He overcame/conquered sin, not because He was born without it.

There would have been no point for the Spirit to lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted if Jesus could not have been truly tempted to sin. God was preparing Jesus to be our High Priest; a priest who stood in solidarity and could sympathize with the people He represented. Jesus the Christ succeeded where Adam had failed.

-A

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Of course not, because such a thing doesn't exist.

The perfection of His sacrifice was solidified in the fact that He overcame/conquered sin, not because He was born without it.

There would have been no point for the Spirit to lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted if Jesus could not have been truly tempted to sin. God was preparing Jesus to be our High Priest; a priest who stood in solidarity and could sympathize with the people He represented. Jesus the Christ succeeded where Adam had failed.

-A

I agree that He was fully tempted . . . where Adam failed Christ conquered. A Sin nature was not required.

So here is the point to Kvs2pete . . . IF JESUS DID NOT HAVE THE FALLEN HUMAN NATURE, AND SATAN IS NOT A PERSON BUT THE FALLEN HUMAN NATURE AND PROPENSITY TO SIN, THEN HOW WAS HE TEMPTED BY IT?

If satan is just a abstract philosophical condition of the inner human evil brought on by the Fall of Adam (per Paul according to K-Pete) THEN JESUS IS TEMPTED BY WHOM IN THE WILDERNESS? If He has not the fallenness . . . then His temptation in the wilderness is by a REAL AND PERSONAL ENTITY and NOT some abstract concept of non-personal sin. IOW, in order for k-pete's contention to be RIGHT (that Satan is not a real entity but the personification of human Evil inherent within us all [IE the Fallen nature of humanity]) THEN JESUS MUST HAVE THAT SAME FALLEN NATURE IN ORDER TO BE TEMPTED BY IT IN THE WILDERNESS . . . and for that matter Adam must have the same fallen nature BEFORE THE FALL . . .

SO MY POINT? K-Pete's contention doesn't hold.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Of course not, because such a thing doesn't exist.

The perfection of His sacrifice was solidified in the fact that He overcame/conquered sin, not because He was born without it.

There would have been no point for the Spirit to lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted if Jesus could not have been truly tempted to sin. God was preparing Jesus to be our High Priest; a priest who stood in solidarity and could sympathize with the people He represented. Jesus the Christ succeeded where Adam had failed.

-A

the concept of a "sin nature" doesn't exist?

And being born without sin is CERTAINLY part of the equation . . . it is being born without sin which places Him in the arena of Adam's fault . . . WHERE ADAM FAILED (being sinless before his sin) Christ succeeds (being sinless) . . .

 

[armothe]

Truly . . . yet these passages don't address my question.

I'll explain why they do:

So, since the FALLEN nature is NOT in Christ, then HOW DOES THE FALLEN NATURE TEMPT HIM?

Hebrew 4:15 states that Christ was tempted in all points as we are. If you believe that our temptation originates from an inherited FALLEN NATURE it goes to say that Christ also possessed a FALLEN NATURE.

Romans 8:3 states that God sent Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh. If you believe that sinful flesh is a result of an inherited FALLEN NATURE it goes to say that Christ - who was the likeness of sinful flesh - would have also possessed a FALLEN NATURE.

Better yet, since Adam was not fallen PRIOR to his temptation . . . how is it that a fallen nature tempts him before the FALL!??

Namely, because inherited FALLEN NATURE doesn't exist. Eve tempted Adam and he simply gave into to his desires (see James 1).

-A

 

[armothe]

the concept of a "sin nature" doesn't exist?

The concept of a FALLEN NATURE, as you put it; does not exist. Having a nature to sin does; but so does a nature not to sin. The balance between these is called FREE WILL.

And being born without sin is CERTAINLY part of the equation . . . it is being born without sin which places Him in the arena of Adam's fault . . . WHERE ADAM FAILED (being sinless before his sin) Christ succeeds (being sinless) . . .

Everyone is born without sin, but that is besides the point. I'd be interested to see where scripture states that:
a) Christ was born without the FALLEN NATURE that everyone else is.
b) Sin & FALLEN NATURE are passed on genetically by the father.

All of your questions and points are based on the existance of a FALLEN NATURE. I don't see any evidence of such condition, which is perhaps why we won't get very far in our discussions. I cannot speak for Kvs2pete.

-A

 

[yashualover]

The concept of a FALLEN NATURE, as you put it; does not exist. Having a nature to sin does; but so does a nature not to sin. The balance between these is called FREE WILL.

Everyone is born without sin, but that is besides the point. I'd be interested to see where scripture states that:
a) Christ was born without the FALLEN NATURE that everyone else is.
b) Sin & FALLEN NATURE are passed on genetically by the father.

All of your questions and points are based on the existance of a FALLEN NATURE. I don't see any evidence of such condition, which is perhaps why we won't get very far in our discussions. I cannot speak for Kvs2pete.

-A

If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.
Martin Luther "...we allow that man has choice and that it is self-determined, so that if he does anything evil, it should be imputed to him and to his own voluntary choosing. We do away with coercion and force, because this contradicts the nature of the will and cannot coexist with it. We deny that choice is free, because through man's innate wickedness it is of necessity driven to what is evil and cannot seek anything but evil. And from this it is possible to deduce what a great difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined.

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Free-Will/

 

[Ben12]

The concept of a FALLEN NATURE, as you put it; does not exist. Having a nature to sin does; but so does a nature not to sin. The balance between these is called FREE WILL.

Everyone is born without sin, but that is besides the point. I'd be interested to see where scripture states that:
a) Christ was born without the FALLEN NATURE that everyone else is.
b) Sin & FALLEN NATURE are passed on genetically by the father.

All of your questions and points are based on the existance of a FALLEN NATURE. I don't see any evidence of such condition, which is perhaps why we won't get very far in our discussions. I cannot speak for Kvs2pete.

-A

Free will is not even a scriptural term except fot the OT Freewill offering.

 

[armothe]

Free will is not even a scriptural term except fot the OT Freewill offering.

Philemon 1:14 - "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will."

So you see, Free Will was quite the familiar concept amongst the Jews. More importantly, the belief that man can choose between good and evil is found all over scripture and was known to the Hebrews as "bechirah chofshith".

Deuteronomy 30:19 - "I [God] have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life, you and your descendants"

-A

 

[Ben12]

Philemon 1:14 - "but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will."

So you see, Free Will was quite the familiar concept amongst the Jews. More importantly, the belief that man can choose between good and evil is found all over scripture and was known to the Hebrews as "bechirah chofshith".

Deuteronomy 30:19 - "I [God] have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life, you and your descendants"

-A

When I pointed out the word freewill in scripture; I am merely pointing out the false doctrine of freewill unto salvation. I must admit you got me there; I missed that translation (first time someone has ever pointed this out to me). That verse was speaking about receiving someone willingly; or as the translation you pointed out by freewill. We are saved by grace not freewill; God draws us/drags us (totally contrary to freewill) . Also Adam had no choice in the garden; it was God's sovereign plan for him to sin. Where can you find a person to choose salvation

 

[armothe]

I am merely pointing out the false doctrine of freewill unto salvation. We are saved by grace not freewill; God draws us/drags us (totally contrary to freewill) . Also Adam had no choice in the garden; it was God's sovereign plan for him to sin. Where can you find a person to choose salvation

This brings up the idea of salvation. Automatically our mind thinks of the Cross, however; salvation is a much broader term. To the Hebrew, salvation was a reliance on God to overcome. Whether it was battle, famine, emotional struggle, politics, crossing the Red Sea or simply hoping to endure tumultuous times.

All throughout the scriptures we see people experiencing hardships and then having faith and calling on God for safety, rescue & victory. One of the bigger dilemmas was mans' separation from God. For it was impossible that the blood of bulls & goats remove sin and reconnect mankind with God. God knew that the Law - as Holy as it was - could not be a permanent solution.

Isaiah 59:2 & 16 - But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear. 16 And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him.

So God sent His son to earth to become man, defeat sin and become the perfect sacrifice so that God & man could once again dwell with eachother. His Son's name was Yeshua, which means Salvation. Finally, the prayers from hundreds of generations would come to pass in the first century.

By that time the apostles were tasked with revealing God's spiritual salvation to both the Jews & Gentiles:

2 Corinthians 6:2 - for He says," AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU."Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION"--

Romans 10:10 - for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

2 Timothy 3:15 - and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus

So no, we simply do not close our eyes and will our way into a relationship with God - it's already been taken care of, centries ago. God, through grace - not our own works or will - provided the means. When we come to this sober realization; we have no choice but to put our faith in the grace that was provided and call out in praise to the salvation which was given to us. It is this epiphany that begins our relationship with the Father and spiritual walk with His Son.

-A