What Power Does Satan Have?

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Hagnismos

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I have . . . seen doors thrown open. Movements of shadows, etc.

My wife has seen first hand the welts brought upon her little sister from a demonic manifestation.

Hermeneutics requires that whatever was said to the original recipients and their understanding is what needs to be the meaning of the text. Like the demons from the pit in revelation being stinger missles . . . no. They are demons, that is how they were understood by the first audience . . . that is how we understand them now. Remember that these signs and wonders are given to DECIEVE EVEN THE ELECT (if possible) . . . these are religious connotations . . . I could hardly see many Christians being decieved into religious devotion to tnaks and computers (at least in active idolatry). No, the hallmark of these events will be supernatural and otherworldy . . . as the words mean . . . and religious in nature.
Ok,

I won't question what you claim to have seen. The shadows thing, I'll let that be. You mean doors thrown open by the wind?

When I think about these things, does it also sem to you that the devil's biggest manifestations don;t appear to be supernatural at all, but rather simply deny the truth of Scripture?

Big picture, small picture.

That is interesting. So your spouse come from a family where the standard ghost and demon myths of the culture are followed and believed?
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Ok,

I won't question what you claim to have seen. The shadows thing, I'll let that be. You mean doors thrown open by the wind?

When I think about these things, does it also sem to you that the devil's biggest manifestations don;t appear to be supernatural at all, but rather simply deny the truth of Scripture?

Big picture, small picture.

That is interesting. So your spouse come from a family where the standard ghost and demon myths of the culture are followed and believed?
No . . . my wife is an average american. There were no cultural presuppositions to rely upon . . . just raw experience.

Wind and the doors . . . no. Completely shut house and when I prayed against the spirit in the room we were in the door which was shut flew open and a table flipped over as the spirit left. IT WAS NOT HAPPY.

I think that Satan and the Scripture are intimate buddies . . . he knows it better than we. His primary tactic toward the people of God will be to speak the truth with a bit of error mixed in (Gen 3 "did God REALLY say?") . . . or even the whole truth with the purpose of distraction . . . like the demon speaking about Paul and Silas in Phillipi.

Many Evangelicals relegate the enemy's primary mode of attack as deception . . . and this is partly true . . . but the power encounters in cultures that remain aware of the spiritual realms abound. Leading me to see that the Devil has his hands in the mix a WHOLE LOT more than just speaking lies. He is very powerful . . . and aside from the cross . . . we are sunk.

IMO, this is where most "deliverance" ministers/ries go astray . . . they divorce their ministry from a solid doctrine of the Cross . . . and often forsake the Gospel. To bring sound doctrine and Gospel centered appoaches is what is needed . . . not this fantastic hollywoodised theatrical expose . . . though at times it may manifest this way.

Want to read an interesting book . . . "The Twilight Labryinth" By George Otis.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Ok,

I won't question what you claim to have seen. The shadows thing, I'll let that be. You mean doors thrown open by the wind?

When I think about these things, does it also sem to you that the devil's biggest manifestations don;t appear to be supernatural at all, but rather simply deny the truth of Scripture?

Big picture, small picture.

That is interesting. So your spouse come from a family where the standard ghost and demon myths of the culture are followed and believed?
I replied once to this . . . but it is not registering.

Wind . . . no. It was in a closed house and between rooms. I had rebuked the spirit and then the closed door flew open and a table that was up against a wall flew over.

My wife was a standard American girl . . . no cultural presupposition (pre-wiring) to see and experience such things . . . they just happened.

I think that the tactics of the enemy to CHRISTIANS is commonly truth mixed with just a hint of error (Gen 3 "Did God REALLY say . . .?") or even truth but for the purpose of distraction (like divisions in the church over doctrine . . . or the Philippian slave girl to Paul and Barnabas (Silas?)).

Our common evangelical teachings have led us to see the enemy as impotent . . . that all he can do is tempt and decieve . . . but this is dead wrong. He has power . . . fearsome. But for the Christian, that power is diffused in the Cross. Here is where many deliverance minsitries go awry. They settle for theatrics and hollywoodization and think they got it down . . . but why do the same spirits come back to the same people in a week? Lack of emphasis on the cross and sound doctrine concerning sin. The Gospel is neglected . . . and it is the power of God unto salvation (which is the same word for deliverance consequently).

Our westernized mentality is sheltered. The 1st Cent Christians did NOT have a worldview like our's . . . as much as we try to make our's biblical. Their's was much more like the third-world cultures of today . . . yet saturated in Biblical truth. We have excluded the middle, so-to-speak. In our ignorance the Devil has had a hey-day . . . but many are waking up.

devil's biggest manifestations don;t appear to be supernatural at all, but rather simply deny the truth of Scripture?

I think he surely knows the Scripture better than do we . . . but only ONCE in the NT does he come in this vein. ALL the other accounts of Demonic overt activity are POWER encounters and have NOTHING to do with Scripture at all.
 
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Hismessenger

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I'll say this again,

Satan Has no power other than what God allows Him to have. Look at the the story of Job, chapter 1 where God gives him leave to test Job. Satan could do nothing of his own as attested to by His own word to God. PUT FORTH YOU HAND. Satan couldn't put forth his hand for he has no power other than to deceive

hismessenger
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I'll say this again,

Satan Has no power other than what God allows Him to have. Look at the the story of Job, chapter 1 where God gives him leave to test Job. Satan could do nothing of his own as attested to by His own word to God. PUT FORTH YOU HAND. Satan couldn't put forth his hand for he has no power other than to deceive

hismessenger
he has no power other than to deceive

Sure . . . save for signs and wonders . . . and prophecies . . . oh yeah . . . and sickness. That is Bible dude.

Though I agree that Satan is certainly God's Satan. He is on a leash.
 
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yashualover

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Sure . . . save for signs and wonders . . . and prophecies . . . oh yeah . . . and sickness. That is Bible dude.

Though I agree that Satan is certainly God's Satan. He is on a leash.
I like that. :) Satan is on a leash, I agree.
 
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Hagnismos

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I like that. :) Satan is on a leash, I agree.
That is true, but not much help to those who are lost, those who are living within the length of that leash.

Mathetes,

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and we think the account is from somewhere around the time of Abraham. Under the New Covenant Satan's claim over the world is destroyed. Show me in the New Testament where the devil has power over anything except in the lives of those he possesses and through their hands. Show me one Biblical, New Testament instance of the devil having control over the physical world. I am no neophyte I have studied and I cannot see it. All theimpacts you describe are explainable as deceptions of the minds of the lost and manipulations of their bodies caused by the presence of demon inside them. No evidence anywhere that the devil causes storms, or makes things float in the air etc. The devil reached out his hand against Job and did what? God allowed the devil to do what? Exactly? No place do you see control over physical processes, only control over fallen people and as our friend pointed out only after God had allowed it. Even then God's purpose was the one fulfilled. The devil is a defeated foe to those in Christ.
 
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yashualover

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That is true, but not much help to those who are lost, those who are living within the length of that leash.

Mathetes,

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and we think the account is from somewhere around the time of Abraham. Under the New Covenant Satan's claim over the world is destroyed. Show me in the New Testament where the devil has power over anything except in the lives of those he possesses and through their hands. Show me one Biblical, New Testament instance of the devil having control over the physical world. I am no neophyte I have studied and I cannot see it. All theimpacts you describe are explainable as deceptions of the minds of the lost and manipulations of their bodies caused by the presence of demon inside them. No evidence anywhere that the devil causes storms, or makes things float in the air etc. The devil reached out his hand against Job and did what? God allowed the devil to do what? Exactly? No place do you see control over physical processes, only control over fallen people and as our friend pointed out only after God had allowed it. Even then God's purpose was the one fulfilled. The devil is a defeated foe to those in Christ.
Job is an example of God allowing Satan to chastise his child to break him of his pride.

This is the only scripture I could think of for now.

1Co 5:4 When you are gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus and my spirit and the power of our Lord Jesus are present,
1Co 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.

Paul had delivered them to Satan, had declared them to belong to the kingdom of Satan, and, as some think, had, by an extraordinary power, delivered them to be terrified or tormented by Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme not to contradict or revile the doctrine of Christ and the good ways of the Lord. Observe, The primary design of the highest censure in the primitive church was to prevent further sin and to reclaim the sinner. In this case it was for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, 1Co_5:5. Observe, (1.) Those who love the service and work of Satan are justly delivered over to the power of Satan: Whom I have delivered over to Satan. (2.) God can, if he please, work by contraries: Hymeneus and Alexander are delivered to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme, when one would rather think they would learn of Satan to blaspheme the more. (3.) Those who have put away a good conscience, and made shipwreck of faith, will not stick at any thing, blasphemy not excepted. (4.) Therefore let us hold faith and a good conscience, if we would keep clear of blasphemy; for, if we once let go our hold of these, we do not know where we shall stop.
 
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Hagnismos

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Job is an example of God allowing Satan to chastise his child to break him of his pride.

This is the only scripture I could think of for now.

1Co 5:4 When you are gathered together in the name of our Lord Jesus and my spirit and the power of our Lord Jesus are present,
1Co 5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the Day of the Lord.

Paul had delivered them to Satan, had declared them to belong to the kingdom of Satan, and, as some think, had, by an extraordinary power, delivered them to be terrified or tormented by Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme not to contradict or revile the doctrine of Christ and the good ways of the Lord. Observe, The primary design of the highest censure in the primitive church was to prevent further sin and to reclaim the sinner. In this case it was for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, 1Co_5:5. Observe, (1.) Those who love the service and work of Satan are justly delivered over to the power of Satan: Whom I have delivered over to Satan. (2.) God can, if he please, work by contraries: Hymeneus and Alexander are delivered to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme, when one would rather think they would learn of Satan to blaspheme the more. (3.) Those who have put away a good conscience, and made shipwreck of faith, will not stick at any thing, blasphemy not excepted. (4.) Therefore let us hold faith and a good conscience, if we would keep clear of blasphemy; for, if we once let go our hold of these, we do not know where we shall stop.
I agree. The question I asked was whether satan or his demons have power over physical objects other than the people or through the people they possess? Your passage does not answer the question. Turning these men over to satan may simply mean that they are now going to be buffeted spiritually by the devil. Since the church will not help them, if satan himself is against them, they have no help in the world either, they are cursed. Jesus told us in a parable that those who refuse to forgive those who have wronged them are turned over to the tormentors. Still, the question remains. Can satan manipulate physical reality except in those and through those he possesses? Prove it with Scripture. If you are arguing that the abovve passage proves this, clearly it does not. It makes no implied or direct mention of what happens to those who are turned over to satan.

Thanks for bringing it up though. The true church has a lot of authority.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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That is true, but not much help to those who are lost, those who are living within the length of that leash.

Mathetes,

Job is the oldest book in the Bible and we think the account is from somewhere around the time of Abraham. Under the New Covenant Satan's claim over the world is destroyed. Show me in the New Testament where the devil has power over anything except in the lives of those he possesses and through their hands. Show me one Biblical, New Testament instance of the devil having control over the physical world. I am no neophyte I have studied and I cannot see it. All theimpacts you describe are explainable as deceptions of the minds of the lost and manipulations of their bodies caused by the presence of demon inside them. No evidence anywhere that the devil causes storms, or makes things float in the air etc. The devil reached out his hand against Job and did what? God allowed the devil to do what? Exactly? No place do you see control over physical processes, only control over fallen people and as our friend pointed out only after God had allowed it. Even then God's purpose was the one fulfilled. The devil is a defeated foe to those in Christ.
The New Covenant ONLY EXTENDS TO THOSE IN CHRIST. To those NOT in Christ . . . the power of the enemy is still the same as the OT.

Eph 4 don't give the Devil a place (topos A GEOGRAPHICAL LOCATION . . . where? Per anger . . . IN YOU)

2 Cor 11 Paul given and ANGEL OF SATAN (literal Greek) in the FLESH . . . the flesh is either the literal body or the fallen nature . . . either way you go . . . Satan has a demonic enterprise in Paul . . . that Satan no doubt meant for evil . . . but that God was USING to humble Paul.

Oh yeah . . . all over the NT . . . sicknesses caused by demons . . . the clearest example . . . and as mentioned . . . esp. the daughter of Abraham bound by a spirit for 18 years.

And what do you think the NT gift of discerning spirits was for in the CONGREGATION?

The other clearest issue? Signs and wonders . . . which the enemy works. NOTHING IN THE GREEK CONNOTES MENTAL DECEPTION.

Neophyte or not brother, you still have presuppositions. Am I an unbeliever? Not at all . . . I am saved by the blood of the Lamb and my name is written in His book . . . CONFIDENTLY. So Satan has deluded ME? No. I have seen these things first hand . . . I have had to cast demons out of people on several occasions . . . I have seen the enemy EYE TO EYE. What have you? Ivory tower westernised evangelicalism that is falling by the wayside with apathetic nominal professions? No offense boss . . . but my theology works everyday and the Gospel and the cross are REALITIES in defeating the enemy for the JOY of those who belong to Christ and declare, by God's grace, that HE is the pearl of greatest price and their portion and treasure. Mine is in practice and thoroughly biblical . . . your's . . . tested? Tried? Applied in the face of demons who mock you? Put to flight the enemy?
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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I agree. The question I asked was whether satan or his demons have power over physical objects other than the people or through the people they possess? Your passage does not answer the question. Turning these men over to satan may simply mean that they are now going to be buffeted spiritually by the devil. Since the church will not help them, if satan himself is against them, they have no help in the world either, they are cursed. Jesus told us in a parable that those who refuse to forgive those who have wronged them are turned over to the tormentors. Still, the question remains. Can satan manipulate physical reality except in those and through those he possesses? Prove it with Scripture. If you are arguing that the abovve passage proves this, clearly it does not. It makes no implied or direct mention of what happens to those who are turned over to satan.

Thanks for bringing it up though. The true church has a lot of authority.
No the passage of turning one over to satan is the DESTRUCTION OF THE FLESH THAT THE SOUL MAY BE SAVED. Here we have a clear teaching of the enemy being able to KILL Christians. How though remains to be seen.
 
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Hagnismos

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You are so confident in yourself that you have now assumed things about me that are not true, and you still refuse to answer the question. There is no edification to this conversation and I will not entertain your accusations further. The Roman Catholics have a long history of casting out demons with very elaborate reports of the things that can occur. The late Malachi Martin was an exorcist by trade. Based on what you have said I suspect you find the catholic church to be unbiblical, what then of the manifestations they claim to witness, which often in the end corroborate their own intepretations of the Scripture? Are you smarter than the devil?

If you have the mind of Christ then you know that even Michael would not level a railing accusation against the devil and yet you are railing against my honest question which is based also upon experience (at least 19 years of christian life, with training for the ministry in a denomination that believes in the gifts of the Spirit.) I am saved by grace as surely as you brother.

Perhaps you have a salvation of a higher order, since you regularly cast out demons. Have you ever cast the demon out of the CEO of a major corporation that leads him to consume the earth for profit? Or does destroying our own health through our lack of concern for God's creation seem a trite sin? Do you know any of the people empowered to create and manage this present darkness? Or does your theology not allow you to see that such things are evil?

My problem with statements such as you make is that they claim a confidence in intepretation of passages that are largely in dispute among the church at large. Meaning you feel you have it all figured out, but dozens of denominations all of which have fruit believe differently than you. And yet the fruit (your attitude) toward any questioning at all seems to show your peace is fragile. God did not call you to go off like a hand grenade whenever someone challenges the message *you* preach.

Patience is part of the fruit of the Spirit. I am praising God to have head your voice if the things you say are true, and I have no reason to doubt that a child of God has dominion over the demons. But you still have refused to answer the question. Does satan have the power to create storms, possess animals, move objects around in contradiction to physical laws? Show NT examples of this with a demeanor that glorifies Christ, that is testimony, that is witness.

In all of this ranting, nobody has even mentioned the swine rushing off the cliff, and that Christ allowed the demon's request. Casting out of demons is not a proof that *we* are powerful in Christ, it is a proof that Christ has defeated the devil in the life of at least one person, ourselves, that by our faith we are redeemed from the curse and are now in a favored position with God. But no demon can be cast out truly unless that exorcism serves God's purpose. Furthermore Christ also tells us that once cast out the demon gathers up seven others more powerful thatn itself and attempts to reenter that house from which it was cast. If we think that casting out a denom solves the matter it does not. The vessel must then be occupied by Christ, Who alone is strong enough to hold the ground. Religion just won't suffice. Without Christ as both Lord and Savior in the life you might as well go invite the seven others in before you cast the first one out. Often there is need for emotional healing and forgiveness, since unforgiveness opens the door for torment. In each area of the soul there might be need of special attention and ministry to build the delivered so that they might stand more strongly; demonstrations of God's love, wise counsel, and ongoing prayer and fellowship. If someone saved returns to the darkness it must not be because we failed in our part to do all that God has called the church to do, or we cannot claim as Paul did that we are free from the blood of all men.

The power of God is not a private arsenal we wield to carve out a fiefdom called a pastorate. The only evidence we have on this earth that a man of God is working with God is his testimony and his character. Neglecting the fruit of the Spirit as an evidence of salvation (when accompanied by proper doctrine) has led the American church into confusion. We have millions of households sending millions of dollars a year to TV evangelists whose conduct and character they have no way of verifying. Is this the work of God? Does it glorify God? It is a test to the faithful, and a temptation so that those with tickling ears can find the gospel that suits them.

The wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. No histrionics is required to cast out a demon and there are two very different forms of exorcism extent in the world today. The godly form where a believer glorifies God by representing Christ. And the ungodly form where a false minister, or a decieved one is lead on by spirits much smarter than they are, obeying their vociferous foolishness, so as to weave their ministry into a tapistry of darkness and deception that goes much further than the 'enlightened' minister suspects.

Jesus is Lord! God is Sovereign in the affairs of all created beings. Absolutely nothing is allowed to happen in the entire univese unless it is allowed by God, and in His wisdom all things work together for the good of those who love Him. Did you know that love and the message of the gospel itself has the power to cast out devils? How then is anyone saved by the gospel if not that the message dispels the darkness, but it does so as an act of God's grace that God might be just and the one who justifies those who believe. If this is not true then I suspect you feel there are very few people in any of the churches that are actually saved. since they all were once blinded by the god of this age and were saved not by having demons cast out of them but by hearing the message of the gospel and believing it.

Recall that Paul told Timothy,

'And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.' 2 Timothy 2:24-26

Do you see, we were all under the sway of the wicked one. So what purpose does casting out demons serve? Why does it exist? Is it a calling or an evidence?

Now I will not debate with you further. I am your brother in the Lord and I am sorry if my words have upset you. The path forward is in the conduct that Paul calls Timothy to. If you care about the souls that cross your path be patient with an old fool like me.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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You are so confident in yourself that you have now assumed things about me that are not true, and you still refuse to answer the question. There is no edification to this conversation and I will not entertain your accusations further. The Roman Catholics have a long history of casting out demons with very elaborate reports of the things that can occur. The late Malachi Martin was an exorcist by trade. Based on what you have said I suspect you find the catholic church to be unbiblical, what then of the manifestations they claim to witness, which often in the end corroborate their own intepretations of the Scripture? Are you smarter than the devil?

If you have the mind of Christ then you know that even Michael would not level a railing accusation against the devil and yet you are railing against my honest question which is based also upon experience (at least 19 years of christian life, with training for the ministry in a denomination that believes in the gifts of the Spirit.) I am saved by grace as surely as you brother.

Perhaps you have a salvation of a higher order, since you regularly cast out demons. Have you ever cast the demon out of the CEO of a major corporation that leads him to consume the earth for profit? Or does destroying our own health through our lack of concern for God's creation seem a trite sin? Do you know any of the people empowered to create and manage this present darkness? Or does your theology not allow you to see that such things are evil?

My problem with statements such as you make is that they claim a confidence in intepretation of passages that are largely in dispute among the church at large. Meaning you feel you have it all figured out, but dozens of denominations all of which have fruit believe differently than you. And yet the fruit (your attitude) toward any questioning at all seems to show your peace is fragile. God did not call you to go off like a hand grenade whenever someone challenges the message *you* preach.

Patience is part of the fruit of the Spirit. I am praising God to have head your voice if the things you say are true, and I have no reason to doubt that a child of God has dominion over the demons. But you still have refused to answer the question. Does satan have the power to create storms, possess animals, move objects around in contradiction to physical laws? Show NT examples of this with a demeanor that glorifies Christ, that is testimony, that is witness.

In all of this ranting, nobody has even mentioned the swine rushing off the cliff, and that Christ allowed the demon's request. Casting out of demons is not a proof that *we* are powerful in Christ, it is a proof that Christ has defeated the devil in the life of at least one person, ourselves, that by our faith we are redeemed from the curse and are now in a favored position with God. But no demon can be cast out truly unless that exorcism serves God's purpose. Furthermore Christ also tells us that once cast out the demon gathers up seven others more powerful thatn itself and attempts to reenter that house from which it was cast. If we think that casting out a denom solves the matter it does not. The vessel must then be occupied by Christ, Who alone is strong enough to hold the ground. Religion just won't suffice. Without Christ as both Lord and Savior in the life you might as well go invite the seven others in before you cast the first one out. Often there is need for emotional healing and forgiveness, since unforgiveness opens the door for torment. In each area of the soul there might be need of special attention and ministry to build the delivered so that they might stand more strongly; demonstrations of God's love, wise counsel, and ongoing prayer and fellowship. If someone saved returns to the darkness it must not be because we failed in our part to do all that God has called the church to do, or we cannot claim as Paul did that we are free from the blood of all men.

The power of God is not a private arsenal we wield to carve out a fiefdom called a pastorate. The only evidence we have on this earth that a man of God is working with God is his testimony and his character. Neglecting the fruit of the Spirit as an evidence of salvation (when accompanied by proper doctrine) has led the American church into confusion. We have millions of households sending millions of dollars a year to TV evangelists whose conduct and character they have no way of verifying. Is this the work of God? Does it glorify God? It is a test to the faithful, and a temptation so that those with tickling ears can find the gospel that suits them.

The wrath of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God. No histrionics is required to cast out a demon and there are two very different forms of exorcism extent in the world today. The godly form where a believer glorifies God by representing Christ. And the ungodly form where a false minister, or a decieved one is lead on by spirits much smarter than they are, obeying their vociferous foolishness, so as to weave their ministry into a tapistry of darkness and deception that goes much further than the 'enlightened' minister suspects.

Jesus is Lord! God is Sovereign in the affairs of all created beings. Absolutely nothing is allowed to happen in the entire univese unless it is allowed by God, and in His wisdom all things work together for the good of those who love Him. Did you know that love and the message of the gospel itself has the power to cast out devils? How then is anyone saved by the gospel if not that the message dispels the darkness, but it does so as an act of God's grace that God might be just and the one who justifies those who believe. If this is not true then I suspect you feel there are very few people in any of the churches that are actually saved. since they all were once blinded by the god of this age and were saved not by having demons cast out of them but by hearing the message of the gospel and believing it.

Recall that Paul told Timothy,

'And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.' 2 Timothy 2:24-26

Do you see, we were all under the sway of the wicked one. So what purpose does casting out demons serve? Why does it exist? Is it a calling or an evidence?

Now I will not debate with you further. I am your brother in the Lord and I am sorry if my words have upset you. The path forward is in the conduct that Paul calls Timothy to. If you care about the souls that cross your path be patient with an old fool like me.
Quickly,

I did mention the pigs . . .

I am sorry if I have come off in some way that has lead you to feel spurned by my comments . . . not my intention at all.

I agree with almost all that you have said in this post . . . and much of what you said I had already stated about the problems with a lack of doctrinal input into a deliverance ministry about the sovereignty of God, the Cross and the Gospel. Most deliverance ministries (all that I have run into) are not founded in the Gospel at all. And hardly mention the Cross.

My erk is with those who have taken the common evangelical assumptions about what the enemy can and cannot do and have drawn doctrinal conclusions about him that are not informed by hermeneutical consistency but rather a mix of westernized Christianity bathed in the secularism of the Enlightenment that has ripped Christianity from its supernatural moorings and placed it in a semi secular semi supernatural base. We affirm the deity of Christ . . . the substitutionary atonement . . . angels and such . . . but we forget that the roots of Christianity is SUPERNATURAL CONFLICT. Examine the stories of missionaries throughout the world in cultures that affirm these things and the stories abound about power encounters.

Pax
 
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Hismessenger

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Satan Has no power, only to produced signs and LYING WONDERS. It's deception dude, not power.

Rev 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

hismessenger
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Satan Has no power, only to produced signs and LYING WONDERS. It's deception dude, not power.



hismessenger
It is deception . . . but the power is very real . . . the signs and wonders are very real . . . but they are for the purpose of leading astray. The deception lies not in that they are FAKE . . . but that they mislead into ERROR. That is the meaning of deception . . . not holograms or slieght of hand parlor tricks.

My point still stands. The Greek terms are the same as the terms accredited to Christ and the church . . .
 
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hlaltimus

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Satan has power to heal people because he uses that same power to make them sick in the first place. This doesn't mean that all sickness is demonic in origin, only that it can be and when it is, Satan wishes to appear to be healing someone when in reality he is only withdrawing his evil influence from a person which evil influence made that person sick in the first place.

We don't need any favors from the devil....By repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus' pardoning blood, mighty angels of the Lord will displace sickness demons rather than those malignant agents cooperatively and willingly withdrawing their evil influence only so that a later, compensating claim will be made upon the sick all over again.
 
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