What must we do for the forgiveness of sins?

[redleghunter]

1..Well here comes the defence of those traditions already.
2..You saying they don't believe in infant baptism ..?great news..umm when did they change it?
3.. They are not alone in saying “we are just sinners saved“ but the do say it.
4. Go to a traditional Lutheran meeting on Sunday and talk to the folks seated.
Ask them how often they do anything that Jesus said to do ?
Just the basics.. Like heal the sick ，preach the gospel drive out devil's...
You`'ll find for the most part，they,like many Sunday clubers of many denominations ,don't even believe they can anymore let alone do so.

We must know different Lutherans.

The Lutherans I know personally and here on CF show love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

They are not conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Like in Galatians chapter 5.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Hebrews 5:9 (NASB)...out of context
9 And having been made perfect, He (Jesus) became to all those who "obey" Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

those who obey...Greek 5219...hypakouō...
I.to listen, to harken
A.of one who on the knock at the door comes to listen who it is, (the duty of a porter)

Hebrews 5 ...in context
7 In the days of His (Jesus) flesh,
He offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears
to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety.
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

BELIEVE unto Salvation...THEN...FOLLOW unto Sanctification

Obedience to Jesus' commandments and precepts are NOT a pre-requisite condition to salvation.

John 14:15...Jesus' BIG "IF's"
“IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments.(PRECEPTS: LOVE COMMANDED!)

Such as: "FOLLOW" + "OBEY" + TRUST + be in the WILL OF GOD + "LOVE "one another" + ETC

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, IF you have love for "one another".”

John 14:23...Jesus answered and said to him,
“IF anyone loves Me, he will keep My word;
and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our abode (DWELLING) with him.

John 15:10
IF you keep My commandments, you will abide (DWELL) in My love;
just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

 

[Ron Gurley]

1 John 1: 5-10 (NASB) ...God Is Light, BUT believers can walk in the Dark
This is the message we (believers) have heard from Him and announce to you,
that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. (evil / sin is the absence of God)
If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet
WALK in the darkness, (sin)
we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with "one another", (believers) and the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES us from all sin.(restores FELLOWSHIP)
If we (believers) say that: WE HAVE NO SIN,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (agree with God about) our sins,
He is faithful and righteous to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that: WE HAVE NOT SINNED,
we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

HOWEVER, we SHOULD believe, trust, obey, follow, be led into good works, be more Christ-like, etc...
to TRY not to sin....BEFORE we run to the promises of 1 John 1.

 

[pescador]

1 John 1: 5-10 (NASB) ...God Is Light, BUT believers can walk in the Dark
This is the message we (believers) have heard from Him and announce to you,
that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. (evil / sin is the absence of God)
If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet
WALK in the darkness, (sin)
we lie and do not practice the truth;
but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with "one another", (believers) and the blood of Jesus His Son CLEANSES us from all sin.(restores FELLOWSHIP)
If we (believers) say that: WE HAVE NO SIN,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (agree with God about) our sins,
He is faithful and righteous to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that: WE HAVE NOT SINNED,
we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

HOWEVER, we SHOULD believe, trust, obey, follow, be led into good works, be more Christ-like, etc...
to TRY not to sin....BEFORE we run to the promises of 1 John 1.

The first part of 1 John is not written to believers! Why would he write in verse 1:5, "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."?

You can believe what you want but it's not what John wrote.

 

[Oldmantook]

BELIEVE unto Salvation...THEN...FOLLOW unto Sanctification

Obedience to Jesus' commandments and precepts are NOT a pre-requisite condition to salvation.

ὑπακούω (hypakouō)
Strong: G5219
GK: G5634
to give ear; to listen, Acts 12:13; to obey, Mt. 8:27; Mk. 1:27; in NT to render submissive acceptance, Acts 6:7; Rom. 6:17; 2 Thess. 1:8; Heb. 5:9; absol. to be submissive, Phil. 2:12

As I understand you, to obey is to listen only correct? What if a Christian listens/hears but does not follow Christ, is he/she still a Christian? When Jesus first called his disciples did he say to them listen to me only, or follow me? In Jn 10:27, did Jesus not say that those who are his sheep listen to his voice AND FOLLOW HIM (Jn 10:27)? Do you deny that Jesus' own words equate to and are descriptive of his sheep who are required to BOTH listen & follow = obedience. Moreover, following is not "unto sanctification" as you mistakenly assert; rather Heb 5:9 plainly states that Jesus is the source of ETERNAL SALVATION (NOT sanctification) to all who obey/follow him. Essentially, you have substituted your own words in the text just to suit your beliefs.

Furthermore, if obedience to Jesus' commandments and precepts are not a prerequisite condition to salvation as you claim then Jesus must have been wrong in his instructions to the rich young man. This rich young man asked Jesus in Matt 19:16 what must he do to inherit eternal life (not sanctification). In the very next verse Jesus told him "...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." In addition Jesus told him to sell all he had and follow Him. These were prerequisites to eternal life; not sanctification.

If you truly believe that obedience to God's commands are not necessary for salvation but only for sanctification then to be consistent, you should have no problem accepting the mark of the beast correct?

 

[pescador]

ὑπακούω (hypakouō)
Strong: G5219
GK: G5634
to give ear; to listen, Acts 12:13; to obey, Mt. 8:27; Mk. 1:27; in NT to render submissive acceptance, Acts 6:7; Rom. 6:17; 2 Thess. 1:8; Heb. 5:9; absol. to be submissive, Phil. 2:12

As I understand you, to obey is to listen only correct? What if a Christian listens/hears but does not follow Christ, is he/she still a Christian? When Jesus first called his disciples did he say to them listen to me only, or follow me? In Jn 10:27, did Jesus not say that those who are his sheep listen to his voice AND FOLLOW HIM (Jn 10:27)? Do you deny that Jesus' own words equate to and are descriptive of his sheep who are required to BOTH listen & follow = obedience. Moreover, following is not "unto sanctification" as you mistakenly assert; rather Heb 5:9 plainly states that Jesus is the source of ETERNAL SALVATION (NOT sanctification) to all who obey/follow him. Essentially, you have substituted your own words in the text just to suit your beliefs.

Furthermore, if obedience to Jesus' commandments and precepts are not a prerequisite condition to salvation as you claim then Jesus must have been wrong in his instructions to the rich young man. This rich young man asked Jesus in Matt 19:16 what must he do to inherit eternal life (not sanctification). In the very next verse Jesus told him "...if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." In addition Jesus told him to sell all he had and follow Him. These were prerequisites to eternal life; not sanctification.

If you truly believe that obedience to God's commands are not necessary for salvation but only for sanctification then to be consistent, you should have no problem accepting the mark of the beast correct?

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

When Paul wrote this to the Galatians, was he just joking?

BTW, you might have a better understanding of the gospels if you realize to whom they were written and why. When Jesus spoke what you cited above, he was not speaking to Christians! The reason? There were no Christians until after he was crucified.

 

[Alithis]

When a person is in the state of righteousness they should know that God has forgiven them already but that doesn't mean the a Christian should not feel remorse for sin. It also does not mean that we should not try to put those right whom we may have sinned against.

If they are in a state of righteousness they are no longer practicing sin the need to feel remorse for. If they are continuing to practice sin .they are not in a state of righteousness..they are in a sinfilled state.

Yes, and the Holy Spirit reveals our sin and leads us to love, teaches us to crawl, teaches us to walk, teaches us to the things we need in order to eat solid food, etc...

He does..and he also does not leave us practicing sin .

Yes and be baptized by a proper person and in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

a proper person ?
If you say a pastor or other I Wil puke at the religious error and control.

Water baptism is the baptism of repentance, as scripture plainly states. The laying on of hands is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Now God may choose to give his Holy Spirit to a pagan but he should then receive water baptism, as Acts states

The laying on of hands is the laying on of hands.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the baptism of the Holy spirit.
Just because some one put thier hands on a person and said the words receive the Holy Spirit. Does not mean they did receive.
It just means some one put their hands on them and said some words.

Correct and no act of man can lead to salvation.

Obedience does...
Since its disobedience we are CALLED to repent of.
Try and get saved by disobedience..
You won't.

Yes, no middle ground. All must be done by the Holy Spirit given at baptism or it is unrighteous works of man. If we want to stop doing unrighteous works, we must let go of our need to do it ourselves and allow God to do it. If we truly have faith, we will change us from within

what your saying is to stop doing sin we must stop doing anything..
And you contradicted your self because you still think faith is a thing you have ..but it's not.it's an action you do based on what you truley believe.

Many say they believe but they don't exercise any faith.
Nor do they actually stop doing sin...
They just say words like “ I have faith”

 

[Alithis]

We must know different Lutherans.

The Lutherans I know personally and here on CF show love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

They are not conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Like in Galatians chapter 5.

Lots of people are nice people.
But this reply didn't address anything .it just avoided the points .

 

[Oldmantook]

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

When Paul wrote this to the Galatians, was he just joking?

BTW, you might have a better understanding of the gospels if you realize to whom they were written and why. When Jesus spoke what you cited above, he was not speaking to Christians! The reason? There were no Christians until after he was crucified.

I think I have a good enough understanding of the gospels. If you understood the gospels you would understand that algtho

"It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery."

When Paul wrote this to the Galatians, was he just joking?

BTW, you might have a better understanding of the gospels if you realize to whom they were written and why. When Jesus spoke what you cited above, he was not speaking to Christians! The reason? There were no Christians until after he was crucified.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I think your point is irrelevant. Doesn't matter what term you refer to them by; if you want to be technical then they could be called disciples, followers, etc. If certain axiomatic truths can be found in the gospels which apply to us today, then they are universal truths which we should still abide by.

 

[Ron Gurley]

REBUTTAL to POST#245

1. YOUR out of context snippet of Hebrews 5:9 does not support your false doctrine:
"OBEDIENCE to Jesus is a pre-requisite condition to salvation."
Spiritually discern John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2...the HEART of salvation.==> NO HINT OF OBEDIENCE!
You are putting the OBEDIENCE cart before the Grace/spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF horse.

You must FOLLOW Jesus after the SALVATION EVENT and into/during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS to be John 15 "FRUITFUL".

A: BELIEVE unto salvation...then...FOLLOW unto sanctification

1. There is no spiritual doubt that Jesus the GOD-Man was / is the "substitutionary atonement"
FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
Grace through Spirit-led BELIEF / FAITH in Jesus the God-Man as the substitute for and savior from sin: >>SALVATION

2. After salvation comes the PROCESS of SANCTIFICATION...the believer is permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort him into the will of God..
SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS....Trust + Obey + Love + Serve + etc!

Matthew 16: 24-27 (NASB) Jesus: Christ-following Is Spiritually Costly...(extracts: parens + caps mine)
24 Then Jesus said to His DISCIPLES, (saved believers!)
“If anyone wishes to COME AFTER Me (use Me as an example and model), he MUST:
>>1. deny himself, AND (spiritually put God, family, neighbors, world...BEFORE SELF)
>>2. take up his cross AND (spiritually bear sacrificial burdens of trusting and obeying and serving, etc)
>>3. follow Me. (spiritually imitate the perfect example of Jesus and His precepts)
25 For whoever wishes to save his (spiritual) life will lose it; but whoever loses his (earthly) life for My sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole (material) world and forfeits his soul (/spirit)?
Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul (/spirit)?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, (Second Coming !)
and will then repay every man (believer) according to his deeds. (Judgment of the Believer's Works after Salvation)

SEE ALSO: Luke 9:23-26

John 12:26...Jesus: following involves service
If anyone serves Me, he must FOLLOW Me;
and where I am, there My servant will be also;
if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Luke 12:48 (NIV)...Jesus: giving much requires more
From everyone who has been given much,
much will be DEMANDED;
and from the one who has been entrusted with much,
much more will be ASKED.

1 Peter 2:21-22...follow Jesus' example
...For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you,
leaving you an EXAMPLE for you to follow in His steps,
WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;...

The Rich Young Ruler MORALS of Matthew 19:
1. Man cannot DO anything to be worthy of an INHERITANCE of eternal spiritual life.
“Then who can be saved?”
26 And looking at them (disciples) Jesus said to them,
2. “With people this (DOING something on their own) is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

God CallsDraws. Man ACCEPTS or REJECTS.

 

[Ron Gurley]

"...if YOU (unsaved rich young ruler) wish to enter into (eternal spiritual) life, keep the (Mosaic) commandments."

Deuteronomy 5:10
but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who A. love Me and B. keep My commandments.

John 14:15
“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The first part of 1 John is not written to believers! Why would he write in verse 1:5, "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ."?

You can believe what you want but it's not what John wrote.

So the first chapter is not addressed to believers, but unbelievers; and then he immediately starts to speak to believers in chapter 2?

Alternative hypothesis: John is writing in a pastoral capacity, and it is in this pastoral capacity he addresses the Faithful, speaking as one bearing witness to the Gospel and declaring that Gospel, and writing that there would be fellowship.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ron Gurley]

Maybe it is a:

MATTER OF MATURITY!!

"DISCIPLE / DISCIPLES"

GREEK 3100...matheteuo... =~ teach, instruct, be discipled
(A PUPIL OF THE GREAT TEACHER!)

Does not Christ-"Following " involve SHOWING the TRI-UNE GOD that you are are growing / changing in spiritual MATURITY ??

GREEK 3877... parakoloutheo ...=~ follow, have understanding, attain, fully know

James 1:4 (NIV)...persevere
Let perseverance finish its work
so that you may be MATURE and complete, not lacking anything.

Hebrews 5:14 (NIV)
But solid food ( truths of God’s word ) is for the MATURE, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Colossians 4:12 (NIV)
...He is always wrestling in prayer for you, that you may stand firm in all the "will of God", MATURE and fully assured.

Ephesians 4:13
...until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become MATURE, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Back to the basics: OP: Q1:

"...What must we (SAVED BELIEVERS) "DO" for the "forgiveness of sins"?

A1: Spiritually discern and CLAIM the benefits of salvation explained clearly in: 1 John 1


1 JOHN 1 (NASB)…TO BELIEVERS! …God Is Light (NOTE: Dark is absence of Light)

5 This is the message “we” have heard from Him (Jesus) and announce to you, that God is Light,
and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have FELLOWSHIP with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not PRACTICE the “truth”;
7 BUT if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have FELLOWSHIP with “one another”, (mutual/reciprocal love among believers)
and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we CONFESS (AGREE WITH GOD ABOUT) our sins, He is faithful and righteous to FORGIVE us our sins and to CLEANSE us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Forgiveness of Sins is a spiritual gift and a benefit of salvation

Matthew 26:28
for this is My blood of the (NEW) covenant, which is poured out for many (who beleieve) FOR forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:77
To give to His people the knowledge of salvation (and) By the forgiveness of their sins,

Acts 10:43
Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives "forgiveness of sins".”

Colossians 1:14
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Oldmantook]

REBUTTAL to POST#245

1. YOUR out of context snippet of Hebrews 5:9 does not support your false doctrine:
"OBEDIENCE to Jesus is a pre-requisite condition to salvation."
Spiritually discern John 3 as explained in Ephesians 2...the HEART of salvation.==> NO HINT OF OBEDIENCE!
You are putting the OBEDIENCE cart before the Grace/spirit-led FAITH/BELIEF horse.

You must FOLLOW Jesus after the SALVATION EVENT and into/during the SANCTIFICATION PROCESS to be John 15 "FRUITFUL".

A: BELIEVE unto salvation...then...FOLLOW unto sanctification

1. There is no spiritual doubt that Jesus the GOD-Man was / is the "substitutionary atonement"
FOR all sins FOR all Men FOR all time.
Grace through Spirit-led BELIEF / FAITH in Jesus the God-Man as the substitute for and savior from sin: >>SALVATION

2. After salvation comes the PROCESS of SANCTIFICATION...the believer is permanently indwelt by God the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort him into the will of God..
SAVED UNTO GOOD WORKS....Trust + Obey + Love + Serve + etc!

Matthew 16: 24-27 (NASB) Jesus: Christ-following Is Spiritually Costly...(extracts: parens + caps mine)
24 Then Jesus said to His DISCIPLES, (saved believers!)
“If anyone wishes to COME AFTER Me (use Me as an example and model), he MUST:
>>1. deny himself, AND (spiritually put God, family, neighbors, world...BEFORE SELF)
>>2. take up his cross AND (spiritually bear sacrificial burdens of trusting and obeying and serving, etc)
>>3. follow Me. (spiritually imitate the perfect example of Jesus and His precepts)
25 For whoever wishes to save his (spiritual) life will lose it; but whoever loses his (earthly) life for My sake will find it.
26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole (material) world and forfeits his soul (/spirit)?
Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul (/spirit)?
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, (Second Coming !)
and will then repay every man (believer) according to his deeds. (Judgment of the Believer's Works after Salvation)

SEE ALSO: Luke 9:23-26

John 12:26...Jesus: following involves service
If anyone serves Me, he must FOLLOW Me;
and where I am, there My servant will be also;
if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.

Luke 12:48 (NIV)...Jesus: giving much requires more
From everyone who has been given much,
much will be DEMANDED;
and from the one who has been entrusted with much,
much more will be ASKED.

1 Peter 2:21-22...follow Jesus' example
...For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you,
leaving you an EXAMPLE for you to follow in His steps,
WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;...

The Rich Young Ruler MORALS of Matthew 19:
1. Man cannot DO anything to be worthy of an INHERITANCE of eternal spiritual life.
“Then who can be saved?”
26 And looking at them (disciples) Jesus said to them,
2. “With people this (DOING something on their own) is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

God CallsDraws. Man ACCEPTS or REJECTS.

What you are engaging in is proof-texting to support your belief which is one of the weakest forms of textual support. In my replies to you, I have cited other scriptures which I think plainly contradict your views and have posed questions to you which you have failed to respond to. You are free to believe whatever you wish but since the scriptures cannot contradict each other, it is incumbent upon you to reconcile those scriptures which go against your beliefs and not just cite scriptures that you think support your beliefs. The formulation of doctrine must account for the whole of the scriptures; not proof-texting.

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE TO POST#255: "... it is incumbent upon you to reconcile those scriptures which go against your beliefs and not just cite scriptures that you think support your beliefs..."

A1: NO IT AIN'T! This is DISCUSSION and DEBATE. No one "makes" arbitrary "rules"midstream. BYE BYE

 

[Ron Gurley]

...(THIS) is a place for outreach and DISCUSSION
on topics of controversial unorthodox and speculative Christian theology...

Statement of Purpose - Controversial Christian Theology Statement of Purpose

 

[pescador]

So the first chapter is not addressed to believers, but unbelievers; and then he immediately starts to speak to believers in chapter 2?

Alternative hypothesis: John is writing in a pastoral capacity, and it is in this pastoral capacity he addresses the Faithful, speaking as one bearing witness to the Gospel and declaring that Gospel, and writing that there would be fellowship.

-CryptoLutheran

The answer to your question "So the first chapter is not addressed to believers, but unbelievers; and then he immediately starts to speak to believers in chapter 2?" is...

Yes, that is correct.

 

[Oldmantook]

RESPONSE TO POST#255: "... it is incumbent upon you to reconcile those scriptures which go against your beliefs and not just cite scriptures that you think support your beliefs..."

A1: NO IT AIN'T! This is DISCUSSION and DEBATE. No one "makes" arbitrary "rules"midstream. BYE BYE[/QUOTE

You discuss your beliefs which may or may not lack biblical support. If they don't, I attempt to point that out to you and if you don't respond to my counterpoints that is your prerogative but it weakens your claims. Suit yourself; bye.

 

[food4thought]

Earlier in this thread I quoted Jesus: Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." (Joh 6:29)

The thread was about forgiveness of sins, though, not faith verses works. Of course there needs to be repentance from sin, yet repentance means "to change ones mind". I agree that we need to stop sinning as Christians, but it is not an all at once thing for most of us. God speaks to us where we are at...

To those who are go through the religious motions yet do not truly repent from their sin, God says:

"What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?" Says the LORD. "I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams And the fat of fed cattle; And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats. "When you come to appear before Me, Who requires of you this trampling of My courts? "Bring your worthless offerings no longer, Incense is an abomination to Me. New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly. "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts, They have become a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. "So when you spread out your hands in prayer, I will hide My eyes from you; Yes, even though you multiply prayers, I will not listen. Your hands are covered with blood. "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight. Cease to do evil, Learn to do good; Seek justice, Reprove the ruthless, Defend the orphan, Plead for the widow." (Isa 1:11-17)

and

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." (1Jn 3:4-10)

But to those who are grieved over their sin, and strive to be righteous even though they fall, He says:

"A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice." (Isa 42:3)

and

"Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, In His arm He will gather the lambs And carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the nursing ewes." (Isa 40:11)

and

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us." (1Jn 1:8-10)


We embrace error if we take an extreme position either way. Perhaps we can know our own state, but those of us who are struggling with ongoing habitual sin cannot be at peace because of what 1st John 3:4-10 says, and God intends it to be this way. Those who claim otherwise need to explain that passage to me.

Bottom line, though, is that forgiveness of sins comes through faith in Jesus Christ... we repent of our unbelief first and foremost, and with that we are forgiven all. Reaching maturity as believers is an ongoing process, and we all have ongoing sin in our lives. To prove that all we need to do is look at the greatest commandment:

And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' "This is the great and foremost commandment." (Mat 22:37-38)

How long does it take for YOUR mind to wander away from loving God and be distracted by the things of this world. In order to fulfill that commandment we have to be loving God with all our being without ceasing... in other words it is an impossibility, which was Jesus' whole point. We will never be sinless, but by the grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit tomorrow we will sin less. But God does not want us to be comfortable in our sin, so He gives us 1st John 3:4-10.

Hope this helps resolve the conflict here.