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Featured What Minister or Christian teacher would you recommend? Why do you like them?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Mar 10, 2019.

  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Agreed. In preaching there is "Topical" and then there is what you described your pastor doing which is called "Expository".

    Both have a place in the ministry but I perfer the Expository method.
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Help me out...…...what is $1???
  3. PoppyB

    PoppyB Active Member

    United Kingdom
    I have been privileged to hear a good few men of God preach over the years but I man I remember best was a humble parish vicar called John. When our son was a few months old we wanted to have him Christened so the vicar came to see us and left a copy of Journey Into Life. Now up till then I had always considered myself to be a Christian but when I read that little life-changing booklet I realised I wasn't so I said the prayer.

    Following on from that I joined the church and John and his wife were like spiritual parents to me and the rest of their flock. He was born again and spirit filled and helped lay the firm foundations of my faith, but he was limited by the teachings and traditions of the Church of England. So when I was convinced that I needed to be baptised he wasn't able to do the honours and sadly I had to find a church that would.
  4. ChristianForCats

    ChristianForCats Love came to us on a donkey.

    United States
    LOL Good catch. I meant #10, the baptism one.
  5. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

    This is an unusual combination. You won't find many writers like this.

    Personally, a lot of my reading is of NT scholarship. I rather like James Dunn.

    For theology, it's hard to recommend a single author, because you really need to look at a variety. I've recently found Ottati's systematic theology (still only partly finished) interesting, because of his refreshing understanding of the limits of what we can know.
  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Wonderful. Me not being a person who "texts" thought it might be some great meaning.

    I agree with you 100%.

    When it is believed that water baptism is needed for salvation, the reality of that belief is that WATER is more important or AS important as the shed BLOOD of the God-Man, Jesus the Christ.
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Well, you appear to be under the impression that many have a correct knowledge of God. That is your opinion that I do not believe is supported by Scripture. I have been reading and studying the Bible for a very long time, and I believe most today do not have a proper knowledge of God's Word and they are not seeking to obey the Lord. How so? Well, Jesus says, "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8). We are living in the last days, and many have a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof (See: 2 Timothy 3:1-9).

    The Bible clearly teaches that after a person is saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ, holiness also plays a part in the next step or stage in the salvation process.
    If not, then one can live like the devil and claim to be a servant of God (When they really are not).
    Jesus said, you will know them by their fruits.

    Please do not respond on this point within this thread. If you want to discuss it, start another thread, and if you provide a convincing argument with Scripture, I may reply.

    Again, this is your opinion that is not supported by Scripture. Hell is a real place of torment (Psalms 139:8) (Matthew 5:28-30) (Luke 16:19-31); And the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will be a place where wicked men will be destroyed (2 Thessalonians 1:9) (2 Peter 2:6) (Psalms 68:2) (Job 4:8-9) (Psalms 92:7) (Psalms 1:6) (Matthew 10:28) (Revelation 21:8), and where wicked angels will be brought to nothing (Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19) (Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18) (Please hover your cursor over these verses to check them out).

    In Isaiah 66:22-24, upon the final New Earth: The saints will will witness the lifeless remains or corpses of the wicked men that will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire that took place over several moons and sabbaths.

    Revelation 21:8 says that the Lake of Fire is called the second death. The idea is that if you call it the "second death," it would have to be related to the "first death" (physical death) in some way in order to be a sequel or continuation of the first. If the second death is not really like the first death, then it would be called something else. In the first death, the physical body dies or perishes. In the second death, a newly created resurrected body (the resurrection of the damned) will be eventually be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

    In Matthew 10:28, Jesus says do not fear the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both body AND SOUL in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

    1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. This means that there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed prior (like the devil and his minions, and wicked men who do not exactly follow Jesus in this life).

    Please do not reply within this thread here; But start another thread if you are interested in debating this topic. Please take note that I may not respond if you have not presented a good argument or case for your position with the Bible.

    Again, this is your opinion that is not supported by Scripture.
    Check out the following thread link for a long list of verses.

    Nonresistance as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good.

    So What Really Happened in Noah's Tent After the Flood?

    I do not think you understand the moral problem in such a belief. You believe that God can ask a righteous man to join with an harlot. God condemns harlotry or prostitution. Why would he approve of prostitution by blessing such a sinful union. It makes no sense, unless one believes God can compromise on His goodness or morality. But God is holy. There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). I have talked about this on the forums before, but I would prefer not to debate this with you or others at this time. If you cannot see the obvious problem, I can only appeal you to ask the Lord why this is a problem.

    God's people are destroyed for lack of knowledge (See Hosea 4:6).
    "Let not then your good be evil spoken of:" (Romans 14:16).
    "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost." (Romans 14:17).
    Also, the wine represented his blood.
    Jesus's blood was pure and sinless.
    Wine is fermented because of the yeast.
    Yeast is a symbol of sin in the Bible.
    Something that is dirty cannot clean anything.
    Jesus's pure sinless blood cleanses all of mankind of their sins so as to offer him the free gift of eternal life (if they accept it and they are responsible with such a gift).

    I am not really looking to debate this one with anyone at the moment. I have discussed this topic for hundreds of pages on multiple Christian forums before (Including this one). So I have debated this topic more than I care to. Unless you can offer something significant that has not been shared before, I am not really interested in debating this with anyone.

    The Dead in Christ Are Taken From Abraham's Bosom By the Rapture:
    (Both the Old Testament Saints and Church Age Saints in Abraham's Bosom Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. For in the Rapture: The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First):

    Zechariah 9:11 NIV and 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    For... I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. And with the trump of God... the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

    Click on the spoiler button to see my commentary on these two verses:

    Commentary - Zechariah 9:11 and Thessalonians 4:16

    Zechariah 9:11 is a prophetic Old Testament passage about the taking up of the saints from Abraham's bosom.

    What is Abraham's Bosom?

    Abraham's bosom (which is also known as Paradise) is described in Luke 16:19-31. It is a real place of comfort within the spirit realm; A temporary paradise where the saint's soul and spiritual body resides consciously to be with the Lord when their physical body dies (Genesis 3:19) (Ecclesiastes 12:7) (Luke 16:22). This paradise is located within the realm of the dead below the Earth (Which is also known as Sheol or Hades) which is separated by a great gulf from the fiery place of punishment known as "Torments" or what is commonly known as "Hell" (Luke 16:26) (Luke 16:23). It will be a place where the saint will be comforted (Luke 16:25). But, why is Abraham's bosom also called Paradise? Well, on the day of Christ's sacrifice, he had told the thief on the cross that: "This day, you shall be with me in Paradise" (Luke 23:43). But yet, Scripture tells us that when Christ died, he was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights, though (Matthew 12:40). So this leads us to conclude that during Christ's three days within the grave before His resurrection, He was with the thief in Abraham's bosom which is located in the heart (or the center) of the Earth.

    Does Abraham's Bosom Still Exist Within the Church Age Today?

    The real life story (or event) told by Jesus within Luke 16:19-31 took place during the time of Moses (Luke 16:29). However, the important question that must be asked is: Does Abraham's Bosom still exist today, though?

    Well, yes, I believe according to the plain reading of Scripture that Abraham's bosom still exists today within our present church age. For all true saints who die in Christ right now will go to be with the Lord down in Abraham's bosom and then later they will be taken up into Heaven when the Rapture occurs. For how else will the dead in Christ rise first? See 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Do the dead in Christ rise to go to Heaven and then come back down somewhere temporarily to be risen again at the Rapture? Do they rise in Christ twice spiritually? If so, where is the verse that explains this?

    In fact, many Christians today who are well versed in studying the Scriptures believe they go straight to Heaven; This is a common misconception because they interpret the ascension of Christ mentioned in Ephesians 4:8 as the time of when the saints in Abraham's bosom are being taken to Heaven.

    Ephesians 4:8 - "When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive."

    In other words, based on this passage, most Christians believe that Christ led those saints who were in captivity in Abraham's bosom captive up into Heaven when Christ ascended. However, is this what Ephesians 4:8 is talking about, though?

    No, actually it is actually talking about how when Christ ascended, He bound the enemy or the powers of darkness. How so? Well, our first clue to this fact is to look at the parallel reference of this passage located in Judges chapter five.

    Judges 5:12 - "Awake, awake, Deborah: awake, awake, utter a song: arise, Barak, and lead your captives captive, you son of Abinoam."

    Now, without boring you with all the details, to make a long story short, if you were to read Judged chapter 5, you would find out that Barak was leading his enemies captive and not his friends. To put it to you another way, the moment a true Christian is born again and then dedicates their life to Christ, they are then no longer Christ's enemy. For those in Abraham's bosom are God's elect or chosen who had put their trust in God to redeem them of their sins (See Luke 16:19-31).

    As a matter of fact, Gill's Exposition of the Bible says this...
    "He led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over;"And 2nd Timothy says this...

    2 Timothy 2:26 - "And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. For when Christ had raised from the dead he put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet."

    Therefore, the word "captivity" is a reference to Satan leading people captive to his will and lets us know the true context or meaning behind Ephesians 4:8.

    For when Christ had risen from the dead, He put all things including the principalities and powers of darkness under his feet.

    Ephesians 1:20-23 "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

    Again, this is a topic I am not looking to debate a person on. If you don't get it, all I can say is for you to pray to the Lord about it.

    I will try and reply to the rest of what you had written later.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Not true. The Bible says otherwise.

    There will be both a...

    #1. Pre-Tribulation Rapture (Being Changed in the Twinkling of an Eye and Being Caught-Up to Meet the Lord in the Air).
    (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18) (Luke 12:40), and a

    #2. Mid-Tribulation Gathering Up (by Angels).
    (Luke 21:28) (Luke 17:31-37) (Matthew 24:15-22).
    For there is a call to the wedding (i.e. the Pre-Trib Rapture):

    "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." (Matthew 25:10).​

    There is a call after the wedding to gather more (i.e. The Mid-Trib Gathering):

    "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately." (Luke 12:36).​

    An equal point for both of these positions in being true are:

    #1. Believers are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 1:10) (1 Thessalonians 5:9). The Day of Wrath begins with the breaking of the 6th seal in Revelation 6:17, and the Wrath of God ends in Revelation 15:1. Even the 144,000 (Messianic Jews) are sealed and protected during the Great Tribulation (i.e. the Day (Age) of Wrath). So any believers living during the time of the Midpoint of the Tribulation (before the Day of Wrath) will not be appointed unto Wrath. They will be protected or removed.​

    The strongest unique points for the Pre-Trib Rapture:

    #1. Imminency verses (Matthew 25:13) (Luke 12:40).
    #2. The Rapture is a new mystery revealed to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:51).
    #3. Paul looked for that blessed hope and appearing of His Lord Jesus Christ and he was not expecting to suffer the Tribulation before seeing His Lord (See Titus 2:13).
    #4. In Luke 21:36, we are told to pray so that we may escape all these things. The things in context start at verse 10 with nation rising against nation (See the second seal in Revelation 6:3-4).​

    Points for the Mid Trib Gathering Up (By Angels):

    #1. During the Mid point of the Tribulation (with the Abomination of Desolations), believers are told to look up, for their redemption draws near (See Luke 21:28) (This verse is followed by the 6th seal, which includes Christ being seen sitting on the throne from Heaven, and His coming for the rest of the Elect (i.e. the resistance of believers that were not martyred by the Antichrist by the enforcement of the mark). There are still many trumpet and bowl judgments that needs to take place after the breaking of the 6th seal, and both Daniel and Revelation confirm that there is 3 and a half years left after the antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple.

    Midpoint of Tribulation:
    (Abomination of Desolations: The antichrist desecrates the Jewish temple).

    4th seal = Death (the saints being martyred by the antichrist for their faith in Christ).
    5th seal = Saints cry out for vengeance in Heaven for having been martyred by the antichrist.
    6th seal = Sign of the Son of Man & the Mid-Trib Gathering up:
    (a) Great Earthquake,
    (b) Sun going black,
    (c) blood moon,
    (d) stars falling out of the sky,
    (e) mountains moved out their place,
    (f) heaven departing like a scroll,
    (g) The lamb is seen sitting on the throne in Heaven.
    (h) The inhabitants of the Earth shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory (Note: The Son of Man is coming for his church to meet them in the air and not to destroy the wicked yet).
    (i) Mid-Trib Gathering Up: Christ sends his angels, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
    So this is the point when the angels will gather up the remaining surviving elect from the four winds and the uttermost parts of the Earth (See: Mark 13:24-27). This is the gathering up (by angels) of the remaining resistance of believers who were not killed by the Antichrist. Similar to in the Pre-Trib Rapture (that took place prior), Christ comes for His church. For in the Rapture, Paul talks about how Christ will descend from Heaven to meet the church within the air (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). This "taking up" will most likely happen a second time during the Midpoint of the Tribulation to gather the remaining body of believers.
    7th seal = A possible answer from God in regards to the saints cry in Heaven in the 5th seal.
    1st Trumpet Judgement = Official beginning of God’s Wrath, which is an answer to sin the saints cry for vengeance in Heaven with the 5th seal.
    Note: The inhabitants of the Earth say that the great day of His wrath has come at the 6th seal, but unbelievers are not a reliable accurate source of the things of God. They believe God's day of wrath has come, but it does not officially begin until the 1st trumpet judgment sounds.

    #2. For the Elect's sake, the tribulation days will be shortened (Matthew 24:22).​

    Understanding the End Times is a spiritual thing; So I prefer not to endlessly debate on this topic. If you want to debate it, start another thread. But please know that you would have to offer something substantial biblically in order for me to respond in return with the Bible.

    The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    "Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

    [God said to Adam,]
    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

    [Eve said to the serpent,]
    "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

    And the serpent said unto the woman,
    "Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

    "...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

    "For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

    “...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
    (Matthew 5:22).

    28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

    “But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

    Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

    “22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
    23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

    “26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
    (Matthew 7:26-27).

    “15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

    "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

    "he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

    "everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

    "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

    6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
    42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

    “For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

    "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
    (James 4:6).

    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

    16 "There is a sin unto death..."
    17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

    "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

    19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

    5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
    ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
    6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
    7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

    5 “...God;
    6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
    7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
    9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
    10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

    “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

    9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

    “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

    "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

    “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

    In the book of Job: The Leviathan was a real fire breathing dragon mentioned alongside other real animals.

    As for dragons and the Ark:

    If you were to read Job, the Leviathan had the capacity to dwell within the deep part of the sea.

    "He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment." (Job 41:31).​

    But lets say he was a land dwelling creature. If God called the animals onboard the Ark (and he did - see Genesis 6), then God could have surely called the baby dragons onboard the Ark and made them to be tame so as not to attack, just like other predatory animals. Anyways, your lack of belief in dragons as described in the Bible does not undo the reality or truth of them. The Bible is true in what it says on dragons. Your unbelief in them does not undermine Scripture that talks about them as real creatures.

    In any event, may the Lord's goodness shine upon you today (even if we disagree).
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  9. ChristianForCats

    ChristianForCats Love came to us on a donkey.

    United States
    It looks to me like someone is just reading the Bible, not trying to understand it. This is a flawed method. You have to really study the Bible to understand God's Word from cover to cover.
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    I can say the same, but the proof is in the pudding by Scripture backing up what one says. Please feel free to refute what I said with Scripture.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2019
  11. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

    United States
  12. Lost4words

    Lost4words Jesus I Trust In You Supporter

    United Kingdom

    Love. Pure and simple. Love of Our Lord and Saviour.
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  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Jason, I am sure that you are a well meaning Christian.

    However......What a waste of time to post such a long post.

    I will say to you that There are two different dragons in the Bible.
    The first one, called Leviathan, is found in the Old Testament.

    With just a little study it can be found that Each Bible uses the English word “Leviathan” for this animal. None of the Bibles actually use the word dragon or crocodile. The difference in wording is found in the footnotes of one’s Bible or in a commentary NOT THE BIBLE ITSELF. It is important to remember that the English Bible is a translation from the original Hebrew. The problem is found in the original Hebrew because this word is difficult to understand. As a result, some say the word means “crocodile” and others think it might mean “dragon” and as a result we allow our IMAGINATION to fill in the blanks.

    So then, what we see is that the Bible translators transliterated the original Hebrew word into English and as a result we have “LEVIATHAN.” That is, they took the sound of each Hebrew letter and replaced it with an English letter. What we mean by this is that they decided not to give us the meaning of the word and left the meaning ambiguous.

    The description suggests a serpent like creature living in the water.

    Now then, the second one, Satan, occurs in the New Testament in the book of Revelation.

    The word DRAGON used there is a metaphor.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    IF you really meant that, you would post ONE (1) example instead of 10.
  15. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    All you are doing mate is called "Burger King Theology"...…….You can have it YOUR way!

    You are simply taking Scriptures without CONTEXT applying them to what you want THEM TO SAY.

    That is the worst kind of Bible exegesis and it leads to all kinds of errors just as you have shown us.

    IF.....IF you would like to discuss any specific Scriptures ONE (1) at a time, I would be more than happy to help you understand that Scripture correctly.
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    You said...………..
    "The Bible clearly teaches that after a person is saved by God's grace through Jesus Christ, holiness also plays a part in the next step or stage in the salvation process."

    NO it does not. That is what YOU want it to say.

    The Bible actually says that when we believe in justification sola fide (by faith alone) we are saved the very moment we accept Christ. In other words, faith in Jesus Christ is all that is needed to actually save a person. “Faith” or “belief” in this context isn’t simply an intellectual belief in God, but rather something far deeper and life changing than head knowledge.
    • “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:31)
    • “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” (Romans 3:22)
    • “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.” (Romans 3:28)
    • “To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)
    You do not seem to have grasped the Bible doctrine of JUSTIFICATION compared to Salvation.

    You said...………
    "And the Lake of Fire (after the Judgment) will be a place where wicked men will be destroyed."

    Again.....NO that is not correct. You are espousing Annihilationism.
    While there are some passages that seem to argue for annihilationism, a comprehensive and CONTEXTUAL look at what the Bible says about the destiny of the wicked reveals the fact that punishment in hell is eternal. A belief in annihilationism results from a misunderstanding of one or more of the following doctrines:
    1) the consequences of sin,
    2) the justice of God,
    3) the nature of hell.

    Revelation 20:10 ……...
    "and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

    Rev. 20:14-15...………...
    "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Hell is perhaps a primary reason why God sent Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. Being “extinguished” after death is no fate to dread, but an eternity in hell most definitely is. Jesus’ death was an infinite death, paying our infinite sin debt so that we would not have to pay it in hell for eternity

    Those who believe in Annililationism can actually remove Luke 16:23-25 from YOUR Bible...……..
    "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

    You said...……………..
    "I am not really interested in debating this with anyone."

    Then why in the world did you waste so much time on this long post????????

    You also said...………
    "Do not reply on this thread to me".

    WHY NOT! Do you think that you can post YOUR OWN OPINIONS and then tell other to NOT RESPOND to your opinion.
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    It's not a crocodile being described in Job 41.
    You cannot change all the words in that chapter.

    "Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?"
    (Job 41:7).

    Can you fill a crocodile skin with barbed irons? Yes. Can you fill a crocodile's head with fish spears? Yes. The real answers to these questions (in Scripture) are a... "no." This creature cannot be filled with barbed irons and fish spears for the whole point of the chapter is describing a creature that is great and amazing.

    "None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?" (Job 41:10).

    Yet, there are people who have dared to stir up crocodiles today. There are crocodile and alligator wrangling contests today. So yeah; It does not sound like the same kind of creature here.

    Job 41 also says that this creature breathes fire.

    18 "By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
    19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
    20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
    21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."
    (Job 41:18-21).

    I am pretty sure crocodiles do not breath fire. This is a dragon.

    "The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble." (Job 41:28).

    You can shoot arrows into a crocodile and they freak out.

    Job 41:5 is suggestive that this creature could possibly fly.

    "Wilt thou play with him as with a bird?" (Job 41:5).

    Crocodiles do not fly.

    But believe as you will.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Why don't you try and respond to the actual verses I mentioned instead of coming up with whole set of new ones from your side? I am more than happy to address your verses and explain them, but if you are not willing to explain any of the verses I have put forth that refute your beliefs here, then there can be no real conversation. For if you continue to provide a one sided debate (with only you giving the verses) and ignore the verses I put forth, it would sort of be like stacking the deck in order for you to win.

    So again, I ask you to explain the verses I have put forth, AND THEN I will explain the ones you mentioned.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    Sorry, truth is not determined by you. All truth within God's Word is important.
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    United States
    You are just disagreeing and you are not really refuting anything that I said with Scripture. Please prove your case with the Bible. If you cannot, then you are just espousing an opinion with no real substance to back up anything that you are saying here.