What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

[Reformationist]

there wont be as soon as some of you quite making the assertion that we all believe that way.

Till then, yes, it is required.

In other words, I am justified in being ungodly because I think you're being unfair. Well, that's sure isn't walking according to the Spirit.

 

[GenemZ]

This didnt actually repent thing is your words to defend your doctrine.
The bible shows that they can be sanctified and then fall away.

God IS sufficient.
He doesnt not rob you of your sin nature or your ability to choose after you are saved.

Romans 7 shows that we are always going to have the old man while in this flesh and are therefore capable of sinning, even the unforgivable sin.

The unforgivable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit's working in our life. We can reject his leading. Many do when they believe what is false! For he is to lead us into all truth. If we choose to believe what is falshood, even after we have been given the Spirit to prevent this.... these sins will not be forgiven! When we are evaluated before the Lord there will be no changing things! We will face destruction and the fire of God! For we had rejected the working of the Holy Spirit in our life!

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

This judgement Day is to reveal the production of the Spirit in our lives.
Those who shunned (or dispised) the Spirit's working and called inferior teaching as being the superior (seeing God as weak and not able to save who he saves completely) will not be forgiven! His Eternal rewards will be lost forever! He will be saved from the lake of Fire (as that passage clearly states)... But, he will not be forgiven for all the times he refused the leading of the Spirit when shown passages that clearly state we can not lose our salvation!

The pharisees blasphemed the Holy Spirit by refusing salvation. The believer can also blaspheme the Holy Spirit after we are saved by refusing deliverance from evil through being led of the Spirit into all Truth! Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is calling the work of the Spirit a lie. A lie that is inferior to what we choose to call the truth.

1 Timothy 4:16 niv
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

The Spirit is to lead us into all truth! If we call what the Spirit would lead us into as being silly and tripe? We blaspheme, and place our stubborn opinion above God's truth. For Jesus told us plainly.... with no exception!

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


If there were to be an exception? Jesus would have said so! It is you who assumes and exception that contradicts his plain spoken declaration of the Truth that will never change!

Matthew 5:32 niv
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Jesus gave an exception when it called for it. In John 6:37-40, he says all that come to him will be saved. No exception is mentioned. Are you saying that you have been put on this earth to let us know what Jesus forgot to mention?


Romans 8:38-39 niv
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

We are all created beings. It says that mothing in all creation can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Yet, you tell us we can enter into his wrath. Wrath only assigned to the unbeliever.

Now, no matter how clear a passage may be, it does not mean a person can not devise arguments to make it appear that we can lose our salvation. There is not one truth in the Bible that any clever, strong willed person can not attack and cause confusion in a weak believer. So? What's new?

Its blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (Spirit is to lead us into all truth) everytime a person with this kind of thinking gets sucked into the system which opposes God's Word. The world is filled with them. If we do not repent? It will never be forgiven. Total loss of rewards will never be taken back by the Lord!

Our personal sins originating from the sin nature have all been forgiven on the Cross. In contrast, the temptation to blaspheme the Holy Spirit will vary from person to person. Some will attack the Deity of Christ. Others will attack the creation account. Others will attack that demons even exist, etc . Its like a mile long table at a smorgasbord. What ever pleases our fancy.

The problem here, is that you have confused the faith that saves us from the lake of Fire, with the faith that saves us from evil in our lives, after we are saved.

We can lose our salvation in how we are to live after we are saved. No peace. No tranquility of soul. No clear thinking in the face of evil. But, we can not lose our salvation from the decision made in a moment in time when we believed in Jesus Christ dying for our sins. There is this "salvation faith" that we can not go back on, for we can not go back in time to undo it! And, there is post salvation faith that will justify our being saved.

This justification of our faith is by having righteous action in the world we find ourselves. That only comes by adding faith to our foundational faith in Christ. What we build upon our salvation faith will determine our rewards (crowns) and blessings in Eternity. That we can lose these rewards awaiting us. As seen in the following passage....

Revelation 3:11 niv
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."

Many of us have this sense that there is something we must do after we are saved. What it is? That is the big question. That is why we find thousands of denominations in the world. Our choices may turn out to be "wood, hay, and stubble." (false understanding).. Or, true understanding derived by the leading of the Spirit which leads to righteous actions (works) ... These are called "gold, silver, and precious stones."

John 16:13a niv
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth."


If we reject the Spirit's leading, we blaspheme the Spirit by calling his thinking as being unworthy and beneath us. That will not be forgiven if we never repent while we still can while we remain alive on this earth.

Yet, all other sins that originate from our flesh is not having to do with possessing the thoughts of the Spirit. All those sins will be forgiven because they were paid for on the Cross. Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is the rejection of God's truth by making God's truth out to be seen as "silly and tripe." This blasphemy is done by placing God's truth in an inferior position and making it out to be evil. Not all sins are like that. All others will be forgiven.

John 10:28 niv
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

Believe what you want. For, God refuses to remove our volitions after we are saved.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19 niv
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval."

Grace and truth... GeneZ

 

[Toga]

that is a different way of looking at it.

 

[<Follower>]

The unforgivable sin is rejecting the Holy Spirit's working in our life. We can reject his leading. Many do when they believe what is false! For he is to lead us into all truth. If we choose to believe what is falshood, even after we have been given the Spirit to prevent this.... these sins will not be forgiven! When we are evaluated before the Lord there will be no changing things! We will face destruction and the fire of God! For we had rejected the working of the Holy Spirit in our life!

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 niv
"If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

You have been shown what this passage is refering to and yet you still use it to show that one cannot commit apostacy.
That is YOUR choice to reject the truth.
This passage isnt talking about outright heretical teachings or none of these would be saved to begin with.
It is only refering to small doctrinal issues that while they ARE in error, are not going to cost someone there salvation.
The whole tongues issue for example.

This passage, for the 30th time, does NOT disprove that one can apostate himself.

I am going to make a standard response for this for each time you bring it up, then just cut it and paste it every time, I dont have the patience to sit and refute the same arguement 1000 times. But by the same token, I WILL expose the error that is being presented.

refuted

1 Timothy 4:16 niv
"Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers."

The Spirit is to lead us into all truth! If we call what the Spirit would lead us into as being silly and tripe? We blaspheme, and place our stubborn opinion above God's truth. For Jesus told us plainly.... with no exception!

Did you miss the "IF" ???
What if you dont watch it closely?

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


If there were to be an exception? Jesus would have said so! It is you who assumes and exception that contradicts his plain spoken declaration of the Truth that will never change!

And He will ''lose'' none.
This does not say we cannot apostate ourselves of OUR own free will.
Man, this is like the 50th time we've been thru all these.
Ill make standard resposes up asap for these.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=32&version=31&context=verse

Matthew 5:32 niv
"But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery."

Jesus gave an exception here. In John 6:37-40, he says all that come to him will be saved. No exception is mentioned. Are you saying that you have been put on this earth to let us know what Jesus forgot to mention?

uh.....did you forget that the ''exception'' is aslo in the text for falling away?
Its presented in Hebrews amoung others.

Romans 8:38-39 niv
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Nice try.
nothing can separate us, that does not mean we cannot CHOOSE to walk away.
By your word, we are Now held at gunpoint by God to STAY in His graces, EVEN if we start on a murderer, raping rampage and also blaspheme the Spirit as well.
See where your doctrne takes you?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=3&verse=11&version=31&context=verse

Revelation 3:11 niv
"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."

"take" not ''give away''

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=10&verse=28&version=31&context=verse

John 10:28 niv
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

But, believe what you want. For, God refuses to remove our volitions after we are saved.

Blaspheme the Spirit, friend, and I promise you your mind will change.

 

[nephilimiyr]

In other words, I am justified in being ungodly because I think you're being unfair. Well, that's sure isn't walking according to the Spirit.

 

[Spiritualyalive]

"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand."

No one in that passage means yourself as well.

 

[<Follower>]

In other words, I am justified in being ungodly because I think you're being unfair. Well, that's sure isn't walking according to the Spirit.

Then how about we bring up the FALSE witness against us then?

I have stated a couple dozen times what I believe, and yet it is being constantly presented that we believe something else.

 

[cygnusx1]

Unfortunately, I have seen many who are anti-OSAS claim that if we committ a sin, such as getting pregnant out of wedlock from a one night indisgression, or a dumb choice that was repented, one does lost salvation and will go to hell.
And then they spend alot of time pointing fingers at others they think may have lost their salvation. I have been in such churches - and one of the hallmarks is their focus on attacking OSAS.

I can testify to that being true , and something even worse I have seen , men and women frightened of leaving a certain Church not too far from me , for fear of losing their souls ..... and as a result many "broke away" years later and were disinclined to have any faith ..... that is a true statement and I know that Church because for a little while I was in it...

 

[cygnusx1]

It is exceedingly solemn to discover that there is a "believing" in Christ by the natural man, which is NOT a believing unto salvation. Just as the Buddhists believe in Buddha, so in Christendom there are multitudes who believe in Christ. And this "believing" is something more than an intellectual one. Often there is much feeling connected with it-the emotions may be deeply stirred. Christ taught in the Parable of the Sower that there is a class of people who hear the Word and with joy receive it, yet have they no root in themselves (Matthew 13:20,21). This is fearfully solemn, for it is stiff occurring daily. Scriptures also tell us that Herod heard John "gladly. " Thus, the mere fact that the reader of these pages enjoys listening to some sound gospel preacher is no proof at all that he is a regenerated soul. The Lord Jesus said to the Pharisees concerning John the Baptist, "Ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light," yet the sequel shows clearly that no real work of grace had been wrought in them. And these things are recorded in Scripture as solemn warnings!

It is striking and solemn to mark the exact wording in the last two Scriptures referred to. Note the repeated personal pronoun in Mark 6:20: "For Herod feared John [not 'God'!], knowing that he as a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly." It was the personality of John which attracted Herod. How often is this the case today! People are charmed by the personality of the preacher: they are carried away by his style and won by his earnestness for souls. But if there is nothing more than this, there will one day be a rude awakening for them. That which is vital is a "love for the truth," not for the one who presents it. It is this which distinguishes the true people of God from the "mixedmultitude" who ever associate with them.

So in John 5:35 Christ said to the Pharisees concerning His forerunner: "Ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his fight," not "in the light"! In like manner there are many today who listen to one whom God enables to open up some of the mysteries and wonders of His Word and they rejoice "in his fight" while in the dark themselves, never having personally received "an unction from the Holy One." Those who do "love the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:10) are they in whom a divine work of grace has been wrought. They have something more than a clear, intellectual understanding of the Scripture: it is the food of their souls, the joy of their hearts (Jeremiah 15:16). They love the truth, and because they do so, they hate error and shun it as deadly poison. They are jealous for the glory of the Author of the Word, and will not sit under a minister whose teaching dishonors Him; they will not listen to preaching which exalts man into the place of supremacy, so that he is the decider of his own destiny.

"LORD, Thou wilt ordain peace for us: for Thou also hast wrought all our works in us" (Isaiah 26:12), Here is the heart and unqualified confession of the true people of God. Note the preposition: "Thou also hast wrought all our works in us." This speaks of a divine work of grace wrought in the heart of the saint. Nor is this text alone. Weigh carefully the following: "It pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me" (Galatians 1:15,16).

"Unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us" (Ephesians 3:20). "Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it" (Phil 1:6). "It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). "1 will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" (Hebrews 10: 16). "Now the God of peace ... make you perfect in every good work to do His will, working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight" (Hebrews 13:20). Here are seven passages which speak of the inward workings of God's grace; or in other words of experimental salvation.

"LORD, Thou wilt ordain peace for us: for Thou also hast wrought all our works in us" (Isaiah 26:12). Is there an echoing response in our heart to this, my reader? Is your repentance something deeper than the remorse and tears of the natural man? Does it have its root in a divine work of grace which the Holy Spirit hath wrought in your soul? Is your believing in Christ something more than an intellectual one? Is your relation to Him something more vital than what some act of yours has brought about, having been made one with Him by the power and operation of the Spirit? Is your love for Christ something more than a pious sentiment, like that of the romanticist who sings of the "gentle" and "sweet" Jesus? Does your love for Him proceed from an altogether new nature, that God has created within you? Can you really say with the Psalmist: "Whom have I in heaven but Thee? And there is none upon earth that I desire beside Thee." Is your profession accompanied by true meekness and lowliness of heart? It is easy to call yourself names, and say, "I am an unworthy and unprofitable creature." But do you realize yourself to be such? Do you feel yourself to be "less than the least of all saints?" Paul did! If you do not; if instead, you deem yourself superior to the rank and file of Christians, who bemoan their failures, confess their weakness, and cry, "O wretched man that I am!" -there is grave reason to conclude you are a stranger to God!

That which distinguishes genuine godliness from human religiousness is this: the one is external, the other internal. Christ complained of the Pharisees, "Ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess" (Matthew 23:25). A carnal religion is all on the surface. It is at the heart God looks and with the heart God deals. Concerning His people He says: "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them" (Hebrews 10:16).

"Lord, Thou wilt ordain peace for us: for Thou also hast wrought all our works in us." How humbling is this to the pride of man! It makes everything of God and nothing of the creature! The tendency of human nature the world over, is to be self-sufficient and self-satisfied; to say with the Laodiceans, "I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing" (Revelation 3:17). But here is something to humble us, and empty us of pride. Since God has wrought all our works in us, then we have no ground for boasting. "What hast thou that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (I Corinthians 4:7).

And who are the ones in whom God thus works? From the divine side; His favored, chosen, redeemed people. From the human side: those who, in themselves have no claim whatever on His notice; who are destitute of any merit; who have everything in them to provoke His holy wrath; those who are miserable failures in their lives, and utterly depraved and corrupt in their persons. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, and did for them and in them what they would not and could not do for themselves.

And what is it God "works" in His people? - All their works. First, He quickens them: "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing7 (John 6:63). "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth" (James 1:18). Second, He bestows repentance: "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel" (Acts 5:31). "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim 2:25). Third, He gives faith: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). "Ye are risen with Him through the faith of the operation of God" (Colossians2:12). Fourth, He grants a spiritual understanding: 'And we know the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true" (I John 5:20). Fifth, He effectuates our service: "I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I , but the grace of God which was with me" (I Corinthians 15:10). Sixth, He secures our perseverance: "who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation" (I Pet 1:5). Seventh, He produces our fruit: "From Me is thy fruit found" (Hosea 14:8). "The fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22). Yes, He has wrought all our works in us.

Why has God thus "wrought all our works in us?" First, because unless He had done so, all had eternally perished (Romans 9:29). We were "without strength," unable to meet God's righteous demands. Therefore, in sovereign grace, He did for us what we ought but could not do for ourselves. Second, that all the glory might be His. God is a jealous God. He says so. His honour He will not share with another. By this means He secures all the praise, and we have no ground for boasting. Third, that our salvation might be effectually and securely accomplished. Were any part of our salvation left to us it would be neither effectual nor secure. Whatever man touches he spoils: failure is written across everything he attempts. But what God does is perfect and lasts for ever: "I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before Him" (Ecclesiastes 3:14).

But how may I be sure that my works have been "wrought in me" by God? Mainly by their effects. If you have been born again, you have a new nature within. This new nature is spiritual and contrary to the flesh - contrary in its desires and aspirations. Because the old and new natures are contrary to each other, there is a continual war between them. Are you conscious of this inward conflict?

If your repentance be a God-wrought one, then you abhor yourself. If your repentance be a genuine and spiritual one, then you marvel that God did not long ago cast you into hell. If your repentance be the gift of Christ, then you daily mourn the wretched return which you make to God's wondrous grace; you hate sin, you sorrow in secret before God for your manifold transgressions. Not simply do you do so at conversion, but daily do so now.

If your faith be a God-communicated one, it is evidenced by your turning away from all creature confidences, by a renunciation of your own self-righteousness, by a repudiation of all your own works. If your faith be "the faith of God's elect" (Titus 1: 1), then you are resting alone on Christ as the ground of your acceptance before God. If your faith be the result of "the operation of God," then you implicitly believe His Word, you receive it with meekness, you crucify reason, and accept all He has said with childlike simplicity.

If your love for Christ be the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:25), then it evidences itself by constantly seeking to please Him, and by abstaining from what you know is displeasing to Him: in a word, by an obedient walk. If your love for Christ be the love of "the new man," then you pant after Him, you yearn for communion with Him above everything else. If your love for Christ be the same in kind (though not in degree) as His love for you, then you are eagerly looking forward to His glorious appearing, when He shall come again to receive His people unto Himself, that they may be forever with the Lord. May the grace of spiritual discernment be given the reader to see whether his Christian profession be real or a sham, whether his hope is built upon the Rock of Ages or the quicksands of human resolutions, efforts, decisions, or feelings; whether, in short, his salvation is "OF THE LORD" or the vain imagination of his own deceitful heart.

http://www.ldolphin.org/pink.html

 

[GenemZ]

If what I believe is correct, then one could become complacent believing God MUST admit them regardless.
If they persist in a life that is not walking according to the Spirit, which I have witnessed in some who are OSAS, then over time they may grow further and further from Him and in the end apostate themselves or become reprobate.

They are simply honest about not wanting to please God, that's all. Yet, they are saved by grace by faith when the accepted Jesus Christ.

And, if your thinking were correct? There would be no evaluation of believers! Why? For only those who walked after the Spirit remain saved. And? If they walked after the Spirit at all times? They would have pleased the Lord in all ways. Yet? What does it say?

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid (which is salvation in Christ), which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation (what he chooses to believer after he is saved) using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.


It will be revealed with fire, (the fire you keep insisting is one being sent to Hell) and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, (destruction) he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv)

Now, all the passages you use to prove we can go to Hell is showing fire and destruction. Do you have any passages to reveal the reality of that passage? Where are they? It says a believer can do nothing to please God (i.e., not walking in the Spirit) Yet! It says he will be saved!

How can that be? One part of the Word says we can stop walking in the Spirit and still be saved. Sadly, to lose all rewards that could have been ours. And? You say that other passages say to forget about the rewards being lost? For, you will lose your salvation from the Lake of Fire?

God may be a Trinity. But, he speaks with one voice. You have him speaking with two. Therefore, how can your interpretation be correct?

John 6:37-40 niv
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Why do you insist on making believe that these passages do not exist? These plain spoken passages, at that? Are you that determined to see what you want to believe has to be correct? If what these passsages say what they do (and they do). And you insist on calling them lies? You should and thank God that we can not lose our salvation.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[GenemZ]

Blaspheme the Spirit, friend, and I promise you your mind will change.

"You promise me?" Why is your promise good? Not, God's?

Do you realize where you are placing your opinion?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40 niv


Tell me what happens when you try to read that? Do you feel numb all over and forget what you just read? How do you do it? What's your secret?

For, Jesus plainly said, that he will lose none of all the Father gives him.

Sorry to say.... Yes. Those who are saved and do not want to follow the Lord anymore, will lose all their rewards. They will face fire and destruction. But, they will be saved.

For the Lord can not disown Himself. We become a part of the Lord when we get saved. We are His bride. One flesh....

2 Timothy 2:13 niv
"If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

Want to add to that? Or, can we allow it to stand on its own?

Grace and trembling, GeneZ

 

[Reformationist]

Then how about we bring up the FALSE witness against us then?

Again, if you feel that someone has done something wrong to you and that, in some way, justifies you responding in ungodliness then your understanding of deeper issues of the Gospel isn't the only thing that is lacking.

I have stated a couple dozen times what I believe, and yet it is being constantly presented that we believe something else.

Have you ever thought that what you may believe and the manner in which you express may present opposing ideas, or at least appear to?

I, and nearly every other reformed Christian on this website, have been subject to accusations of turning man into a puppet or a robot, despite regularly refuting the claim. Believe me, if your views are being misrepresented it is not intentional. We know what it feels like. I personally understand that the reason most people say the things they do about reformed theology is ignorance of reformed teaching more than anything else but, instead of getting angry, try explaining it differently. That's what we often must resort to.

God bless

 

[GenemZ]

This passage, for the 30th time, does NOT disprove that one can apostate himself.

Becoming apostate does not cause one to lose their salvation.

I am going to make a standard response for this for each time you bring it up, then just cut it and paste it every time, I dont have the patience to sit and refute the same arguement 1000 times. But by the same token, I WILL expose the error that is being presented.

It is quoted so many times, because it seems one can look at something and not see what it is saying. And! Its repeated for those who are joining the forum for the first time who need to see what you have been denying a 1000 times.

Did you miss the "IF" ???
What if you dont watch it closely?

One will be suckered into false doctrines. You will not be saved from evil. Sound doctrine saves us from evil in the world.

And He will ''lose'' none.
This does not say we cannot apostate ourselves of OUR own free will.
Man, this is like the 50th time we've been thru all these.
Ill make standard resposes up asap for these.

Yogi Berra has competition?

Well? Lets, see.... He will lose none. Yes.

But he will lose some, of those he will not lose any of?

Try running that one by us again?


I keep repeating myself to you because I want others to witness to what kind of thinking believes we can lose our salvation (or what ever else you wish to call it).

uh.....did you forget that the ''exception'' is aslo in the text for falling away? Its presented in Hebrews amoung others.

One can drop out of high school. But, when you do? It does not mean you stop having citizenship. You confuse dropping out of God's plan for your life, with dropping out of the family of God.

Nice try. nothing can separate us, that does not mean we cannot CHOOSE to walk away.

Let's see what you just said....

Nothing can separate us? But, we can separate us. I see!

Thanks for making everything so clear!

Praise God! Now I can see that I can not see! Before, I could not see that I can not see.

Grace and finding this amusing.....

GeneZ

 

[<Follower>]

Becoming apostate does not cause one to lose their salvation.

Oh for the love of pete, do I really have to post the Hebrews passages AGAIN ?!?

It is quoted so many times, because it seems one can look at something and not see what it is saying. And! Its repeated for those who are joining the forum for the first time need to see what you have been denying a 1000 times.

And I wonder what the newbies think when they SEE Jesus defining the unforgivable sin as ''speaking agianst the Spirit" then they see you folks doing everything you can to deny what He said?

Possibly it may be better to let the old dog go back to sleep before too long.
Personally I can keep this up for months

One will be suckered into false doctrines. You will not be saved from evil.

That one really got me.
AV was so intent on an ''of'' that isnt even presented in the original text but was added. And then when we cross an ''if'' that Id bet money IS in the greek, then we'll all just blow it off.
Ironic, isnt it

I keep repeating myself because I want others to witness to what kind of thinking believes we can lose our salvation (or what ever else you wish to call it).

How about you explain to us why Jesus was incorrect about what the unforgivable sin is again

One can drop out of high school. But, when you do? It does not mean you stop having citizenship. You confuse dropping out of God's plan for your life, with dropping out of the family of God.

what on earth? apples and oranges there guy.
If you renounced your citizenship. THAT would be more of a comparison.
If you drop out of high shool, you are no longer a student.
Drop out of Gods family of your own defiance, His word says you cannot recrucify Christ.

Nothing can separate us? But, we can separate us. I see!

Let see agian......JESUS, the ManGod Himself has defined the unforgivable sin as speaking aginst the Spirit.....what was it you all changed it to agian ???

 

[<Follower>]

Again, if you feel that someone has done something wrong to you and that, in some way, justifies you responding in ungodliness then your understanding of deeper issues of the Gospel isn't the only thing that is lacking.

can I ask a question?
Dont get offended please

Do you have an arguement to present or have you run out and now only wish to distract from this thread by badgering me with this nonsense?

Just wondering

Have you ever thought that what you may believe and the manner in which you express may present opposing ideas, or at least appear to?

Now do a search and track down some of Nephilymer (?) and Cygnus' recent posts.
Its funny you are quick to say this to me, but were not around when they were behaving very unchristlike.
ARe you sure your not being a bit biased here?

I, and nearly every other reformed Christian on this website, have been subject to accusations of turning man into a puppet or a robot, despite regularly refuting the claim. Believe me, if your views are being misrepresented it is not intentional. We know what it feels like. I personally understand that the reason most people say the things they do about reformed theology is ignorance of reformed teaching more than anything else but, instead of getting angry, try explaining it differently. That's what we often must resort to.

Presenting the idea that we're puppets is probably much less offensive to you all than what I really believe.
Id rather not offend you by saying that I think OSAS and CAlvinism present the most arrogant of all theologies in that they seem to state that God is not sovereign anymore and MUST accept a man no matter how reprobate he might become.

So which do you prefer? The puppet/robot arguement or the arrogance one?

I can change to fit whichever you prefer

 

[<Follower>]

"You promise me?" Why is your promise good? Not, God's?

Do you realize where you are placing your opinion?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:37-40 niv


Tell me what happens when you try to read that? Do you feel numb all over and forget what you just read? How do you do it? What's your secret?

For, Jesus plainly said, that he will lose none of all the Father gives him.

Sorry to say.... Yes. Those who are saved and do not want to follow the Lord anymore, will lose all their rewards. They will face fire and destruction. But, they will be saved.

For the Lord can not disown Himself. We become a part of the Lord when we get saved. We are His bride. One flesh....

2 Timothy 2:13 niv
"If we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

Want to add to that? Or, can we allow it to stand on its own?

Grace and trembling, GeneZ

yeah, we've seen all these before.
Not a word of it states a man cannot apostate himself of his own free will.

So, are you willing to give it a shot?

Id bet youre not. (an opinion)
Deep down inside Id bet something is screaming out ''DONT DO IT!!!" every time you think about it.

 

[cygnusx1]

wooooooo look out reformationist . your going to get placed on ignore if you retaliate

 

[<Follower>]

They are simply honest about not wanting to please God, that's all. Yet, they are saved by grace by faith when the accepted Jesus Christ.

And, if your thinking were correct? There would be no evaluation of believers! Why? For only those who walked after the Spirit remain saved. And? If they walked after the Spirit at all times? They would have pleased the Lord in all ways. Yet? What does it say?

"For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid (which is salvation in Christ), which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation (what he chooses to believer after he is saved) using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.


It will be revealed with fire, (the fire you keep insisting is one being sent to Hell) and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, (destruction) he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames." (1 Corinthians 3:11-15 niv)

What then is Paul? And what Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, and to each as the Lord gave? I planted, Apollos watered, but God made to grow.

So as neither he planting is anything, nor he watering, but God making to grow. So he planting and he watering are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

For of God we are fellow-workers, a field of God, and you are a building of God. According to God's grace given to me, as a wise master builder, I laid a foundation, but another builds on it.
But let each one be careful how he builds. For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ.

And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw, the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is. If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward. If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire.
(1Co 3:5-15 LITV)

1Co 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burnt,.... If any minister's doctrine he has preached shall be destroyed and disappear, shall be disapproved of, and rejected by the churches, not being able, to bear the light and heat of the fire of God's word:

he shall suffer loss; of all his labour and pains he has been at, in collecting together such trifling, useless, and inconsistent things; and of all that glory and popular applause he might expect from men, on account of them, and which was the snare that drew him into such a way of preaching:

but he himself shall be saved; with an everlasting salvation; not by his ministerial labours, much less by his wood, hay, and stubble, which will be all burnt up; but through his being, notwithstanding all the imperfections of his ministry, upon the foundation Christ:

yet so as by fire; with much difficulty, and will be scarcely saved; see 1Pe_4:17 with great danger, loss, and shame; as a man that is burnt out of house and home, he escapes himself with his own life, but loses all about him: so the Syriac version reads it, àéê ãîï ðåøà, "as out of the fire": see Zec_3:2. Or the sense is, that he shall be tried by the fire of the word, and convinced by the light of it of the errors, irregularities, and inconsistencies of his ministry; either in his time of life and health, or on a death bed; and shall have all his wood, hay, and stubble burnt up, for nothing of this kind shall he carry with him in his judgment to heaven; only the gold, silver, and precious stones; and will find that the latter doctrines, and not the former, will only support him in the views of death and eternity.

Nothing to do with apostating oneself, yet again.
Only error in doctrine.

Why do you insist on making believe that these passages do not exist?

why do you insist on changing what JESUS defined as the unforgivable sin?
Why do YOU insist that the PLAIN warnings NEVER mean what they SAY, but only what YOU say the do?

These plain spoken passages, at that?

You mean like these?

Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies having been washed with clean water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

And let us consider one another for the stirring up of love and of good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, just as is the custom for some, but exhorting one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.

Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
(Heb 10:19-31 EMTV)

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and became partakers of the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the good word of God and the powerful deeds of the age to come,
and having fallen away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and hold Him up to contempt.
(Heb 6:4-6 EMTV)

Oh thats right. THOSE are out of context, while YOURS are not....convienient

Are you that determined to see what you want to believe has to be correct?

ditto

If what these passsages say what they do (and they do). And you insist on calling them lies?

see above......ditto

 

[Reformationist]

can I ask a question?

Of course.

Dont get offended please

I'll try my best to avoid it.

Do you have an arguement to present or have you run out and now only wish to distract from this thread by badgering me with this nonsense?

Admonishment from a brother in Christ for you to take a look at your attitude is nonsense? Okay. I will badger you no more.

Just wondering

I'm wondering how you calling what I've said nonsense is supposed to not offend, especially when I know you know it's true. In truth, it doesn't really bother me, other than that I can see you are caught up in thinking the presentation of the argument is more important than the manner in which it is given. I understand. As most on this MB could tell you, I have done the same thing many a time.

Now do a search and track down some of Nephilymer (?) and Cygnus' recent posts.
Its funny you are quick to say this to me, but were not around when they were behaving very unchristlike.
ARe you sure your not being a bit biased here?

Let's say I do a search and find heinous and ungodly posts from both of them. Let's say that I believe they were behaving very unChristlike. Let's say that I'm biased. Do any of those things negate the fact that you were responding in ungodliness? Do any of them justify acting that way? Since you want to talk about acting Christlike, why don't you tell me how Christ behaved when confronted with persecution.

Presenting the idea that we're puppets is probably much less offensive to you all than what I really believe.

Only because I know that such statements are the product of ignorance of reformed teaching.

Id rather not offend you by saying that I think OSAS and CAlvinism present the most arrogant of all theologies in that they seem to state that God is not sovereign anymore and MUST accept a man no matter how reprobate he might become.

Your comments here are a perfect example of what I refer to above. To say that Calvinism states that God is not sovereign and that He is obligated to accept man is to show ignorance, great ignorance, of reformed teaching. Many things can justifiably be said about Calvinism but the claim that it is a teaching which denies the sovereignty of God isn't one I believe I've ever heard before. On the contrary, we are most often accused of making the sovereignty of God such a preeminent part of our view that we make the will of man worthless.

So which do you prefer? The puppet/robot arguement or the arrogance one?

Are those my only two choices?

I can change to fit whichever you prefer

And neither one of them expresses the grace of God. But I'm sure you think such things are justified because I admonished you to consider the ungodliness of your words.

Well, I'm off to arrogantly badger someone else.

Good luck and God bless

 

[Spiritualyalive]

Follower, what you are teaching is legalism. Why can't you understand this?

If God wanted Legalism and not Grace then he whould just left the Old covenant in place. Everything in the Old was conditional. Everything in the New Covenant is not conditional, but rewards.If that system was working, why did god see to change it.Why did God establish a New Covenant? Becuase man is incapable of living up to religous rules.If one can give away Salvation then it came from him as well. Since God draws people to him, and reveals himself to them. It's him doing the work,saving,ect. Only God can undo it.