What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

[<Follower>]

Come let us reason together -

Question?

Do you see a difference between one's "faith in Christ" vs. the "faith of Christ"?

Just some food for thought -

God bless

I was wondering if this was one of the issues.
Ive seen this one used before.

Your basing a theology on ONE WORD and that is a very bad idea.
MANY versions use faith IN Christ.

I strongly URGE you to study out that passage and all like it, as I had to do when a friend presented this ''of'' thing to me about 7 years back.
From what I understand the word ''of'' in this case is added only for rendering purposes to make it smoother in english (in THIS case, not every).
It is very unwise to pivot ones doctrinal stance on a single word like that.

If you know anything about tranlation and rendering issues, then you know that the translators may have used the word they thought fit best at the time, but these words can and do change the meaning of the text if we arent careful to compare them to the rest of the message as a whole.

That word was neither ''of'' nor ''in'' in the original text from what I understand, it simply wasnt there.

Gal 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law - Not even of the moral, much less the ceremonial, law. But by the faith of Jesus Christ - That is, by faith in him. -Gill

 

[oworm]

Interesting.
So you dont think Paul did his best to remain obedient?

Of course he did. But when he laments his sin in Romans 7, Does that mean that every time he does that which he would rather not that he falls from grace until he re-repents? Does that also mean that if a born again believer falls into a season of sin and if he dies before he re-repents of said sin that he will find himself rejected by God?
Scripture says that without Holiness no one will see the Lord. Does that mean that if i harbour a lustfull thought for any more than a passing nano second that im fallen from grace until i re-repent and rededicate myself to Christ?

 

[<Follower>]

Of course he did. But when he laments his sin in Romans 7, Does that mean that every time he does that which he would rather not that he falls from grace until he re-repents? Does that also mean that if a born again believer falls into a season of sin and if he dies before he re-repents of said sin that he will find himself rejected by God?
Scripture says that without Holiness no one will see the Lord. Does that mean that if i harbour a lustfull thought for any more than a passing nano second that im fallen from grace until i re-repent and rededicate myself to Christ?

Honestly I have no clue where you all get your information from.

NO! it doesnt mean that every time he sins he falls from grace, NOR does he LOSE salvation.

For the Umpteenth time we do NOT believe this type of thing and I am raelly tired of seeig the same arguement come up over and over.

Waht does Romans 8:1 state clearly?

If one is walking according to the Spirit there is no condemnation.
NOT if one is perfect.
NOT if one never slips.
NOT if one never makes a mistake.
IF one is walking according to the Spirit THEN there is no condemnation.

Now, what does this say is required of US?
Very simply, we WALK according to the Spirit.
We let HIm guide us and HE will convict us if we sin so that we many see our error and stay in a repentant state of mind.

What if we refuse to walk according to the Spirit?
What if we let the old man take over?
Is God required to keep us even if WE decide that we no longer wish to walk according to the Spirit?
Is He REQIRED to admit us into heaven if we REFUSE to walk the right path?
Is He REQUIRED to let us in if WE apostate ourselves?
doubtful.


Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.

WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe.
I assure you ALL that we dont.

thanks for your cooperation.

 

[GenemZ]

For the Umpteenth time we do NOT believe this type of thing and I am raelly tired of seeig the same arguement come up over and over.

Waht does Romans 8:1 state clearly?

If one is walking according to the Spirit there is no condemnation.
NOT if one is perfect.
NOT if one never slips.
NOT if one never makes a mistake.
IF one is walking according to the Spirit THEN there is no condemnation.

I suggest you try other translations? This has been shown to have been added in to the text in later years. Romans 8:1, reads more like this.

NIV
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." [a]


Footnotes:

1. Romans 8:1 Some later manuscripts -" Jesus, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

NASB
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

ASV
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."


And, from the notes taken from a lesson given by a pastor who knows Greek and Hebrew. (He does not get his notes from a concordance. He knows the languages).


"Therefore now {there is} absolutely no judgment {katakrima} to those who are in Christ Jesus."


[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Note: The rest of sentence appears only in later Greek text. Apparently an error of a scribe resulted in the KJV placing it here in error. It is not in recently found original texts.[/font]

Now, what does this say is required of US?
Very simply, we WALK according to the Spirit.
We let HIm guide us and HE will convict us if we sin so that we many see our error and stay in a repentant state of mind.

What if we refuse to walk according to the Spirit?
What if we let the old man take over?
Is God required to keep us even if WE decide that we no longer wish to walk according to the Spirit?
Is He REQIRED to admit us into heaven if we REFUSE to walk the right path?
Is He REQUIRED to let us in if WE apostate ourselves?
doubtful.

See what happens when you work with a false translation? You end up creating a false conclusion!

Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.
WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe. I assure you ALL that we dont.

So when we sin? We are only a little pregnant? But if we sin a lot? We are very pregnant?

Now... for an attitude check....

Note the following!

stop this silliness

this type of tripe.

What kind of attitude does that suggest to you?

Grace and observing ..... GeneZ

 

[<Follower>]

I suggest you try other translations? This has been shown to have been added in to the text in later years. Romans 8:1, reads more like this.

Ill stick to what the Byzantine/Majority text presents if you dont mind

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

See what happens when you work with a false translation?

yeah, I see that the KJV must ALSO be a ''false translation"

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 KJV)

Guess that leaves you with few choices as to a bible to trust

 

[oworm]

Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.

WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe.
I assure you ALL that we dont.

thanks for your cooperation.

Is there any need for this type of attitude?

 

[<Follower>]

Is there any need for this type of attitude?

there wont be as soon as some of you quite making the assertion that we all believe that way.

Till then, yes, it is required.

 

[oworm]

there wont be as soon as some of you quite making the assertion that we all believe that way.

Till then, yes, it is required.

Lets ask a mod then shall we?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.

WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe.
I assure you ALL that we dont.

thanks for your cooperation.

Unfortunately, I have seen many who are anti-OSAS claim that if we committ a sin, such as getting pregnant out of wedlock from a one night indisgression, or a dumb choice that was repented, one does lost salvation and will go to hell.
And then they spend alot of time pointing fingers at others they think may have lost their salvation. I have been in such churches - and one of the hallmarks is their focus on attacking OSAS.

 

[GenemZ]

Ill stick to what the Byzantine/Majority text presents if you dont mind

You can do as you well, please. I was saying this for the benefit of others here who may have a willingness to learn something they did not know before.

yeah, I see that the KJV must ALSO be a ''false translation"

Did I say that? I said that in that verse it is a mistake. And, you are building your belief system upon what is false. As for the translation? All translations fall short of perfection. The KJV fails in Romans 8:1. The earlier Greek texts do not contain what was added in later on. Its really quite simple to understand.

Guess that leaves you with few choices as to a bible to trust

I do not trust any one Bible for all things. You do?

Like I said, I know of those who translate from the Greek and Hebrew. Matter of fact, when you get into understanding the perfect tense of the Greek, Eternal security is a shoe in. But, you seem determined to give it the boot. That's your choice. You are welcome to it. For what ever the reason may be.

The Good News is this! You have it! (But, you can lose it!) Good News?

Why is it so important to tell us we can lose our salvation? Why does it upset you that your mother believes she can not lose her salvation? (as you told us in another thread). Maybe if you explain why, maybe we can see what drives you so... It would help to understand why you need to push this on us so much.

Wanting to understand why..... GeneZ

 

[linden]

...when you get into understanding the perfect tense of the Greek, Eternal security is a shoe in. Wanting to understand why..... GeneZ

May I add the passive voice!
Linden

 

[GenemZ]

May I add the passive voice!
Linden

Yes!

It is something we "receive." Not something we produce. ...Its by grace.

We are the recipients of God's finished work. Perfect tense means, continuous action... "forever."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[shotpull]

If grace is given freely for anyone who repents and if you believe God finishes what he starts then, isn't there only one obvious answer to this question? If someone can loose something they've gained by the act of Repentance and acceptance of grace Then only one of these statements can be true either 1) The person didn't actually repent or 2) Gods' grace isn't sufficient.... I think you get the point.

 

[GenemZ]

If grace is given freely for anyone who repents and if you believe God finishes what he starts then, isn't there only one obvious answer to this question? If someone can loose something they've gained by the act of Repentance and acceptance of grace Then only one of these statements can be true either 1) The person didn't actually repent or 2) Gods' grace isn't sufficient.... I think you get the point.

Repent means to "change one's thinking" towards something. In the case of salvation, it requires that we stop rejecting Jesus Christ. Our sins have already been paid for. Everyone's!

1 John 2:2 niv
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."


We can not repent of being a sinner. If we could, we would not need the saving work of Christ! We repent by stop rejecting Christ. Not everyone was told to repent to be saved. Some were simply told to believe in Christ. The ones that were told to repent had been rejecting belief in Christ.

Acts 2:36-38 niv
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The sins they committed was the crucifying of the Lord! Peter said if they put their faith in Christ that those sins they committed would be forgiven. They were asking what they could do?, for doing such a horrible thing!

In another case, when the folks were not guilty of such sins, they were simply told to believe! No mention of having to repent of anything!

Acts 16:30-31 niv
"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[oworm]

NO! it doesnt mean that every time he sins he falls from grace, NOR does he LOSE salvation.

But every time i sin i enter into a state of not continuing in obedience for the time that i spend in sin whether it be a second or a minute

For the Umpteenth time we do NOT believe this type of thing and I am raelly tired of seeig the same arguement come up over and over.

Who is "WE".
The argument is logical if you think about it!
Each time i sin i cease to obey and am in contradiction of Gods law and therefore stand condemned by virtue of my failure to continue in a state of salvation. Every time i sin i enter into this state of "Not continuing" .............So to take your theological stance to its logical conclusion,each time i sin i have apostated myself and require to repent and come back to God because sin is to miss the mark of perfection and anything less than perfection is unacceptable to God!

Waht does Romans 8:1 state clearly?

RO 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus................."

If one is walking according to the Spirit there is no condemnation.

But the verse clearly says that it's those who are "In Christ" who are not under condemnation............. Not those who walk according to the Spirit

NOT if one is perfect.
NOT if one never slips.
NOT if one never makes a mistake.

Yep

IF one is walking according to the Spirit THEN there is no condemnation.

See my last query

Now, what does this say is required of US?
Very simply, we WALK according to the Spirit.

Sorry but i cant find anywhere in the context that even hints that walking according to the Spirit is a prerequisite of us not being condemned. The text clearly says that those who are in Christ are not condemned. walking by or in the Spirit is a result of being in Christ.............Not the cause !!

We let HIm guide us and HE will convict us if we sin so that we many see our error and stay in a repentant state of mind.

So Gods guidance is contingent on our permission?

What if we refuse to walk according to the Spirit?
What if we let the old man take over?

Scripture is replete with examples of Gods resoring grace. With His own He is :
Persistent In His pursuit
Persuasive in his calling
Patient in His understanding
Persevering in His Grace

Is God required to keep us even if WE decide that we no longer wish to walk according to the Spirit?

God has pledged to uphold his covenant with His elected,regenerated,adopted children

Is He REQIRED to admit us into heaven if we REFUSE to walk the right path?

Gods own children cannot ultimately refuse to walk His path. See my alliteration above

Is He REQUIRED to let us in if WE apostate ourselves?

Our being "let in" is not contingent upon our not apostating ourselves!

doubtful.

Hmm ......................this is less than your usuall assertivness

 

[AVBunyan]

It is very unwise to pivot ones doctrinal stance on a single word like that.

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure:

Prov 14:15 The simple believeth every word:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

I have the complete confidence that I have every word that God wants me to have and all of them are vital, pure and perfect.

God bless

 

[<Follower>]

Lets ask a mod then shall we?

you simply must be joking.

 

[<Follower>]

But every time i sin i enter into a state of not continuing in obedience for the time that i spend in sin whether it be a second or a minute

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Who is "WE".
The argument is logical if you think about it!
Each time i sin i cease to obey and am in contradiction of Gods law and therefore stand condemned by virtue of my failure to continue in a state of salvation. Every time i sin i enter into this state of "Not continuing" .............So to take your theological stance to its logical conclusion,each time i sin i have apostated myself and require to repent and come back to God because sin is to miss the mark of perfection and anything less than perfection is unacceptable to God!

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

RO 8:1 "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus................."

Quoting part of that verse for any particular reason?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 KJV)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

And I do think you have misinterpreted me yet again.

But the verse clearly says that it's those who are "In Christ" who are not under condemnation............. Not those who walk according to the Spirit

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

what bible are you reading???

See my last query

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

Sorry but i cant find anywhere in the context that even hints that walking according to the Spirit is a prerequisite of us not being condemned. The text clearly says that those who are in Christ are not condemned. walking by or in the Spirit is a result of being in Christ.............Not the cause !!
So Gods guidance is contingent on our permission?

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
(Rom 8:1 EMTV)

Sorry, you dont get to disect that verse.

God has pledged to uphold his covenant with His elected,regenerated,adopted children

Scriptures warns against falling away.

Gods own children cannot ultimately refuse to walk His path. See my alliteration above

Those are YOUR words, not His.
There are warnings against falling away.

Our being "let in" is not contingent upon our not apostating ourselves!

Purposefullly speak against the Holy Spirit and you shall find out.

 

[<Follower>]

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure:

Prov 14:15 The simple believeth every word:

Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

I have the complete confidence that I have every word that God wants me to have and all of them are vital, pure and perfect.

God bless

Then you need to learn more about translation.
Anyone who knows a second language will tell you that a translation is not ''perfect'' by default.

There are Hebrew phrases in the OT that CANNOT be rendered perfectly as they have no ''perfect'' english counterpart.

 

[<Follower>]

Then you need to learn more about translation.
Anyone who knows a second language will tell you that a translation is not ''perfect'' by default.

There are Hebrew phrases in the OT that CANNOT be rendered perfectly as they have no ''perfect'' english counterpart.

For example.
In your passage before.
It seems ''of'' at that point was added to make the language flow better in english.

If you saw the greek ''but by faith christ'' or '' but by faith Jesus Christ", how would you finish that to make it flow better?

All they had was context to decide what word to use. And they needed to look at the context of the REST of the NT as well.

"faith of Christ'' means one thing. "Faith in'' means quite another. At least to someone who is pivoting a doctrinal stance upon a single word.