What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

[<Follower>]

If grace is given freely for anyone who repents and if you believe God finishes what he starts then, isn't there only one obvious answer to this question? If someone can loose something they've gained by the act of Repentance and acceptance of grace Then only one of these statements can be true either 1) The person didn't actually repent or 2) Gods' grace isn't sufficient.... I think you get the point.

This didnt actually repent thing is your words to defend your doctrine.
The bible shows that they can be sanctified and then fall away.

God IS sufficient.
He doesnt not rob you of your sin nature or your ability to choose after you are saved.

Romans 7 shows that we are always going to have the old man while in this flesh and are therefore capable of sinning, even the unforgivable sin.

 

[oworm]

Quoting part of that verse for any particular reason?

(Romans 8:1 NIV) "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,........................2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.............."

Romans 8:1 ESV "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus............... 2 for the law of the spirit of life......................"

Romans 8:1 NLT (paraphrase) "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus................2 And because you belong to him................"

Romans 8:1 RSV "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...........2 For the law of the spirit of life..................."

And I do think you have misinterpreted me yet again.

Can you show me please?

what bible are you reading???

I refer to multiple translations and paraphrases

Sorry, you dont get to disect that verse.

see quotes above.

Scriptures warns against falling away.

It also affirms that Gods elect cannot be lost or separated from their father

Those are YOUR words, not His.
There are warnings against falling away.

1 Cor 1:4-9 "I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way--in all your speaking and in all your knowledge because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.


Jude 1:24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Purposefullly speak against the Holy Spirit and you shall find out.

What do you think it means to "purposfully speak against the Holy Spirit"?

 

[oworm]

The bible shows that they can be sanctified and then fall away..

Is sancification the same as regeneration? Scripture speaks of an unbelieving partner being sanctified through a believing partner. Seems apparent that there can be sanctification but no regeneration.

 

[<Follower>]

Did I say that? I said that in that verse it is a mistake. And, you are building your belief system upon what is false. As for the translation? All translations fall short of perfection. The KJV fails in Romans 8:1. The earlier Greek texts do not contain what was added in later on. Its really quite simple to understand.

then are you stating that the KJV is imperfect?
It has it.
some here have made it clear they believe the KJV to be perfect. How can that be with this ''mistake'' ?

I do not trust any one Bible for all things. You do?

No I do not.
I use about 20 of them.

Like I said, I know of those who translate from the Greek and Hebrew. Matter of fact, when you get into understanding the perfect tense of the Greek, Eternal security is a shoe in. But, you seem determined to give it the boot. That's your choice. You are welcome to it. For what ever the reason may be.

Ill take the words of scholars I trust, thank you very much

The Good News is this! You have it! (But, you can lose it!) Good News?

GOOD NEWS !!
Its a free gift, by you must not throw in back in the face of the Giver.

Why is it so important to tell us we can lose our salvation?

I NEVER said you could LOSE it.
Why is it so important for you all to keep insisting that we say you can?

Why does it upset you that your mother believes she can not lose her salvation?

Its upsetting when one believes that they can do ANYTHING and a Sovereign God MUST admit them no matter what they decide to do with life.
Not for the reasons you think, Id say.
I dont want any to end up in hell over this.

. Maybe if you explain why, maybe we can see what drives you so... It would help to understand why you need to push this on us so much.

See above.
If what I believe is correct, then one could become complacent believing God MUST admit them regardless.
If they persist in a life that is not walking according to the Spirit, which I have witnessed in some who are OSAS, then over time they may grow further and further from Him and in the end apostate themselves or become reprobate.

 

[<Follower>]

(Romans 8:1 NIV) "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,........................2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.............."

Romans 8:1 ESV "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus............... 2 for the law of the spirit of life......................"

Romans 8:1 NLT (paraphrase) "So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus................2 And because you belong to him................"

Romans 8:1 RSV "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...........2 For the law of the spirit of life..................."

interesting, now lets compare mine.

(ALT) Consequently, [there is] now no condemnation to the [ones] in Christ Jesus, [who] do not walk about [fig., conduct themselves] according to flesh, _but_ according to [the] Spirit [or, to spirit, and possibly elsewhere in 8:2-15].

(EMTV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

(GB) Now then there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Iesus, which walke not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(HNV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Messiah Yeshua, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

(KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

(KJV+) There is therefore686 now3568 no3762 condemnation2631 to them3588 which are in1722 Christ5547 Jesus,2424 who walk4043 not3361 after2596 the flesh,4561 but235 after2596 the Spirit.4151


(LITV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit.

(MKJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

(Webster) There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

(YLT) There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;

Can you show me please?

are you sure you understood my intent when I posted this passage originally?
Did you just see that I used it and since you think it is i error, you decided to jump at it?

I refer to multiple translations and paraphrases

As do I.
And they seem to be in deadlock as to your mistaken verse.
It is, however, present in the Byzantine/Majority Texts and that is all the evidence I need.

see quotes above.

see mine as well.

It also affirms that Gods elect cannot be lost or separated from their father

It never states that we cannot reject the free gift ourselves after we have been born again.
Not a single time.

1 Cor 1:4-9 "I always thank God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way--in all your speaking and in all your knowledge because our testimony about Christ was confirmed in you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

And He will, if you do not apostate yourself as the warnings present.

Jude 1:24-25 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

And He will , if you do not apostate yourself as the warnings present.

What do you think it means to "purposfully speak against the Holy Spirit"?

What did the pharisees do?

 

[<Follower>]

Is sancification the same as regeneration? Scripture speaks of an unbelieving partner being sanctified through a believing partner. Seems apparent that there can be sanctification but no regeneration.

Lets see what scripture says again on the matter.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(Heb 6 KJV)

Sounds like a bit more than just a sanctified spouse, no?

 

[frumanchu]

What is it that keeps a believer saved? Was it the same in the Old Testament as it is now? I would like to hear from people who believe that once you're saved you're always saved, and people who believe you can lose your salvation.

That depends upon your view of justification. We are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. At the point we place our faith in Christ, our sins (ALL of them) are imputed to Him and His righteousness is imputed to us. We are declared righteous in the sight of God not on account of our own works, but on the perfect righteousness of Christ.

The question becomes whether or not somebody can "undo" God's declaration. If the sins were imputed to Christ and He actually bore the penalty of them on the Cross, then there is nothing left by which to condemn the person. God is not an "indian forgiver." He does not take back the forgiveness He gave.

That being said, those who twist this doctrine in order to justify the ignorance of the Law of God do so to their own peril. Faith without works is dead.

 

[frumanchu]

Lets see what scripture says again on the matter. Sounds like a bit more than just a sanctified spouse, no?

oworm is exactly right, follower. you must understand that God is a God of covenants. those who profess faith (regardless of whether or not they actually possess it) place themselves in the covenant community of God, and as such are exposed to the blessings and cursings of the covenant. there is no doubt that the visible church enjoys blessings of God which are poured out on both true believers and unbelievers within the visible church. however, those who are in the covenant community but do not possess true saving faith are bringing more severe condemnation upon themselves (see Heb 10) by their eventual apostasy.

 

[AVBunyan]

The question becomes whether or not somebody can "undo" God's declaration.

Nice post "frumanchu" - I also have been trying to say this on different threads but you may have said it better or more simply.

How can a truly regenerated saint undo the work God has done?

God did a mighty and miraculous work and we, in our own power, cannot undo all that God hath done - impossible!

We could no more undo what God did at salvation anymore than we can undo Genesis 1!

People think they can go back because they just may not understand the mircale that took place. I believe once God shows them the simplicity that is in Christ plus the mighty work God wrought at salvation then they will wake up their neighbors with their shouts of praise and thanksgiving!!!

Then Eph. 4:1 will become real...

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

God bless

 

[oworm]

oworm is exactly right, follower. you must understand that God is a God of covenants. those who profess faith (regardless of whether or not they actually possess it) place themselves in the covenant community of God, and as such are exposed to the blessings and cursings of the covenant. there is no doubt that the visible church enjoys blessings of God which are poured out on both true believers and unbelievers within the visible church. however, those who are in the covenant community but do not possess true saving faith are bringing more severe condemnation upon themselves (see Heb 10) by their eventual apostasy.

This is a good post and highlights my argument well. Maybe we need an exposition of Hebrews 6 and 10 since these are the passages that come up regularly in these threads? This will take some time

I would like it to be noted that im not a great lover of the term OSAS in the context of those who purport that you can make a profession of faith and immediately live according to the flesh. I would always be suspicious of the validity of such a claim. Regeneration always produces a moral change and a desire for holiness however feeble and weak.
"The law...because we cannot keep it.sends us to the gospel. The gospel sends us back to the law" Cant remember where the quote came from but it fits my purposes here!

 

[<Follower>]

oworm is exactly right, follower. you must understand that God is a God of covenants. those who profess faith (regardless of whether or not they actually possess it) place themselves in the covenant community of God, and as such are exposed to the blessings and cursings of the covenant. there is no doubt that the visible church enjoys blessings of God which are poured out on both true believers and unbelievers within the visible church. however, those who are in the covenant community but do not possess true saving faith are bringing more severe condemnation upon themselves (see Heb 10) by their eventual apostasy.

Was Gods covenant to Isreal void of meaning as a whole because the few decided to reject it?

Youre presenting conjecture to fit your doctrine, nothing more.

The warnings of falling away are worded as such that one can easily see these are people who were repentant ....

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

....and were sanctified by the blood of Christ.....

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
(Heb 10:29 KJV)

What is required for salvation?

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

All this talk that they werent really saved is fabrication to justify what you all believe.
None of you are in a position to dispute whether these ''beleived' and confessed with their mouths or not.

 

[AVBunyan]

Then you need to learn more about translation.

I probably do but I personally do not wish to turn this thread into a discussion on authority/versions. I don't think this was your intent either so please don't read into this post. I'm familiar with most of the issues and arguments on both sides.

I trust my stand on this issue is known by now or can be known by checking my profile and website so let's just enjoy this thread. Thanks

God bless

 

[<Follower>]

I probably do but I personally do not wish to turn this thread into a discussion on authority/versions. I don't think this was your intent either so please don't read into this post. I'm familiar with most of the issues and arguments on both sides.

I trust my stand on this issue is known by now or can be known by checking my profile and website so let's just enjoy this thread. Thanks

God bless

I agree.

But you are the one who brought up the ''of'' thing.
The only valid method to discuss this is to look to translating and the different methods of rendering.

If you base theology on one word that isnt present in the mother tongue in this case, then bringing up that fact is a very valid arguement to present.

I dont want to derail your thread either, but if we're going down the path you presented, then I think it wise to at least deal quickly with the issue before moving on

 

[AVBunyan]

I agree.

But you are the one who brought up the ''of'' thing.
The only valid method to discuss this is to look to translating and the different methods of rendering.

If you base theology on one word that isnt present in the mother tongue in this case, then bringing up that fact is a very valid arguement to present.

I dont want to derail your thread either, but if we're going down the path you presented, then I think it wise to at least deal quickly with the issue before moving on

I did brought up the "of" but did not do so to make an issue of versions but to fine-tune justification more. Due to the fact that my final authority is the AV I have in my hands then it would be unproductive to discuss it here.

So we agree to leave this issue alone.

Thanks and God bless

 

[<Follower>]

I did brought up the "of" but did not do so to make an issue of versions but to fine-tune justification more. Due to the fact that my final authority is the AV I have in my hands then it would be unproductive to discuss it here.

I wasnt trying to pick a KJV arguement or anything, just showing that each translation out there has its weak areas.
I just want you to understand that this is why I use many versions and try to understand the issues with rendering and translation.

So we agree to leave this issue alone.

Agreed.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I wasnt trying to pick a KJV arguement or anything, just showing that each translation out there has its weak areas.
2. Agreed.

1. I realize that and no harm done. I tried to indicate that in my previous post but probably didn't make it clear. I also was hoping others may not want to pick up on it also.
2. Agreed

Thanks

 

[Spiritualyalive]

Unfortunately, I have seen many who are anti-OSAS claim that if we committ a sin, such as getting pregnant out of wedlock from a one night indisgression, or a dumb choice that was repented, one does lost salvation and will go to hell.

Anyone who does this doesn't understand what Salvation is or they don't have it themselves.Also I'd note that many anti-OSAS people are often Legalists, Religous like the Pharisee's where. Anyone who has this attitude will often have a pridefull spirit and say your sin will dam you but theirs will not, or that they hardly ever sin. Which is also a lie, and can be pointed out easy if you where to point out their countless sins. They are liar's and hipocrits like the pharisee's where.

And then they spend alot of time pointing fingers at others they think may have lost their salvation. I have been in such churches - and one of the hallmarks is their focus on attacking OSAS.

Thats what Pharisee's do sister. They point out others sin while ignoring their own sins that are greater than the persons sin their pointing a fingure at!

 

[Spiritualyalive]

If grace is given freely for anyone who repents and if you believe God finishes what he starts then, isn't there only one obvious answer to this question? If someone can loose something they've gained by the act of Repentance and acceptance of grace Then only one of these statements can be true either 1) The person didn't actually repent or 2) Gods' grace isn't sufficient.... I think you get the point.

BINGO!

 

[Spiritualyalive]

Repent means to "change one's thinking" towards something. In the case of salvation, it requires that we stop rejecting Jesus Christ. Our sins have already been paid for. Everyone's!

I'd note you can only do this once! Otherwise you never realy repented at all!

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."


We can not repent of being a sinner. If we could, we would not need the saving work of Christ! We repent by stop rejecting Christ. Not everyone was told to repent to be saved. Some were simply told to believe in Christ. The ones that were told to repent had been rejecting belief in Christ.

Agreed!

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The sins they committed was the crucifying of the Lord! Peter said if they put their faith in Christ that those sins they committed would be forgiven. They were asking what they could do?, for doing such a horrible thing!

In another case, when the folks were not guilty of such sins, they were simply told to believe! No mention of having to repent of anything!

True brother.

"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Excellent Genez. The gospel is so simple if you dont look at it through Legalistic colored glasses!

 

[Reformationist]

Interesting.
So you dont think Paul did his best to remain obedient?

I would say that Paul was a paragon of faith and obedience. I do not, however, believe that he thought his salvation depended on a continuing state of obedience as RIF claimed. He did not look to himself or his obedient works as the means of his deliverance:

Rom 7:24,25
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Paul recognized the sinful proclivities that remained even after he recognized that his deliverance would happen by the power of God in Christ rather than his works.

Obedience is fine. Obedience is commanded of us. Obedience is never the basis for being saved or remaining saved.

God bless