What keeps believers saved? O.T. & N.T.

[<Follower>]

Admonishment from a brother in Christ for you to take a look at your attitude is nonsense? Okay. I will badger you no more.

now why do I just know you didnt offer any of this brotherly admonishment to your eternally secure brrethren when they were doing their thing?

 

[<Follower>]

Follower, what you are teaching is legalism. Why can't you understand this?

If God wanted Legalism and not Grace then he whould just left the Old covenant in place. Everything in the Old was conditional. Everything in the New Covenant is not conditional, but rewards.If that system was working, why did god see to change it.Why did God establish a New Covenant? Becuase man is incapable of living up to religous rules.If one can give away Salvation then it came from him as well. Since God draws people to him, and reveals himself to them. It's him doing the work,saving,ect. Only God can undo it.

uh, its call ''instruction''

You may not know it, but Paul and the others took some time and sat down and really put some good instruction together for us.

Heres some

Therefore, brothers, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies having been washed with clean water.

Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

And let us consider one another for the stirring up of love and of good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, just as is the custom for some, but exhorting one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

For if we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery zeal being about to devour the adversaries.

Anyone disregarding the law of Moses dies without compassions on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

By how much worse punishment, do you think, will he be deemed worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, and has regarded as common the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The LORD will judge His people."
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God!
(Heb 10:19-31 EMTV)

you can call the Hebrews writer a ''legalist'' all you wish

 

[<Follower>]

Let's say I do a search and find heinous and ungodly posts from both of them. Let's say that I believe they were behaving very unChristlike. Let's say that I'm biased. Do any of those things negate the fact that you were responding in ungodliness? Do any of them justify acting that way? Since you want to talk about acting Christlike, why don't you tell me how Christ behaved when confronted with persecution.

Lets go and see what this supposedly heinous crime was, shall we?

Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.

WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe.
I assure you ALL that we dont.

thanks for your cooperation.

Now, how about we take away those pretty big red letters and just read it for what it SAYS this time

Please, those of you who are OSAS, I am asking you as a brother in Christ to PLEASE stop this silliness of presenting that we believe that a man loses salvatoin or falls from grace with every sin.

WE have not stated as much and it seems that is the only way you all can even begin to win this debate....by showing we believe this type of tripe.
I assure you ALL that we dont.

thanks for your cooperation.

now, I hardly think that this is even CLOSE to some of the offensive badgering some of you colleagues have pulled the last 3 or 4 days.

Seeing that this was AFTER 2 days of the nonsense, Id say I handled it pretty well.

 

[NJA]

To get back to the original question.
In The OT they were "saved" in a physical sense, God delivered from physical oppressors and blessed them materially. As they trusted in God's mency and grace he kept covenant with them. When they forsook him they were taken captive again.

NT salvation is deliverance from the weakness and inability of "the flesh". You remain free of this by continuing to "walk in the Spirit" , i.e. believe in and love the New Life that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritualyalive]

uh, its call ''instruction''

You may not know it, but Paul and the others took some time and sat down and really put some good instruction together for us.

Yes, and it must be taken in context. You need to understand like Genez and other have told you that many of the new testament was wrote to Jewish christian and people who where not christians at all but claimed to be.

Heres some
you can call the Hebrews writer a ''legalist'' all you wish

Not at all. The book of hebrews was written to Jewish people that where going back to the day of Attonment. If you don't understand this it will through your whole interpetation off. Or if you refuse to understand it.

 

[Reformationist]

Seeing that this was AFTER 2 days of the nonsense, Id say I handled it pretty well.

And herein lies the heart of the problem. It's a common error that people think that once they've put up with things for the length of time they feel appropriate, like 2 days worth of nonsense for instance, their ungodliness is then justified and therefore their actions, in their opinion, seem much better, often causing them to think they "handled things pretty well." Know what I mean?

 

[<Follower>]

Your comments here are a perfect example of what I refer to above. To say that Calvinism states that God is not sovereign and that He is obligated to accept man is to show ignorance, great ignorance, of reformed teaching. Many things can justifiably said about Calvinism but the claim that it is a teaching which denies the sovereignty of God isn't one I believe I've ever heard before. On the contrary, we are most often accused of making the sovereignty of God such a preeminent part of our view that we make the will of man worthless.

ok then, answer this questoin.
And please just answer it plainly.

If you decided to run down to the local Mcdonalds and start blowing folks away tonite, then go on a raping/murdering spree for the next few months, then finally were shot and killed instantly while breaking into a home to kill some more, does God HAVE to let you in?

Please no debating about whether it can happen or not, Romans 7 shows that the old man is still present in us and capable of sin.

Just tell me if God HAS to let you in.

 

[<Follower>]

And herein lies the heart of the problem. It's a common error that people think that once they've put up with things for the length of time they feel appropriate, like 2 days worth of nonsense for instance, their ungodliness is then justified and therefore their actions, in their opinion, seem much better, often causing them to think they "handled things pretty well." Know what I mean?

How about you stop derailing this thread now ?

 

[Reformationist]

ok then, answer this questoin.
And please just answer it plainly.

I'll do my best.

If you decided to run down to the local Mcdonalds and start blowing folks away tonite, then go on a raping/murdering spree for the next few months, then finally were shot and killed instantly while breaking into a home to kill some more, does God HAVE to let you in?

God never HAS to let me in. Would you like to know whether I believe God WILL let me in?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

How about you stop derailing this thread now ?

Okay follower. Good luck. I am pretty sure that no one is going to want to continue discussing things with you if you maintain this self-righteous and belligerant attitude.

I surely won't.

 

[Spiritualyalive]

ok then, answer this questoin.
And please just answer it plainly.

OK.

If you decided to run down to the local Mcdonalds and start blowing folks away tonite, then go on a raping/murdering spree for the next few months, then finally were shot and killed instantly while breaking into a home to kill some more, does God HAVE to let you in?

Yes!

Now the real question is since Gods Spirit and Jesus are in me why whould I want to do those things.The answer is I whoulnd't, but I perfectly chould if I let my flesh controll me.



[/QUOTE]

Unless God lied he have to let me in( I know God doesn't lie though).

Also Salvation isn't at death but at the moment of conversion. we go to heaven or hell based on if we are Spirtualy alive or dead, nothing else.

 

[<Follower>]

Yes!

I admire you for being honest.
In light of that, Ill not make the response I wanted to.
NOt that its too hard to figure out

Now the real question is since Gods Spirit and Jesus are in me why whould I want to do those things.The answer is I whoulnd't, but I perfectly chould if I let my flesh controll me.

Wow, Ill tell you, Im very impressed.
At least you admit that you ''could'' let the flesh take control.
In another thread some wouldnt even do that

 

[cygnusx1]

well back to the OP ,

what keeps believers saved ?

if it isn't Grace then we are not saved .....


Galations shows the folly in dividing salvation over different principles.

 

[<Follower>]

God never HAS to let me in

'Nuff said........

 

[shotpull]

Repent means to "change one's thinking" towards something. In the case of salvation, it requires that we stop rejecting Jesus Christ. Our sins have already been paid for. Everyone's!

1 John 2:2[/color][/b][/url] niv
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."


We can not repent of being a sinner. If we could, we would not need the saving work of Christ! We repent by stop rejecting Christ. Not everyone was told to repent to be saved. Some were simply told to believe in Christ. The ones that were told to repent had been rejecting belief in Christ.

Acts 2:36-38 niv
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The sins they committed was the crucifying of the Lord! Peter said if they put their faith in Christ that those sins they committed would be forgiven. They were asking what they could do?, for doing such a horrible thing!

In another case, when the folks were not guilty of such sins, they were simply told to believe! No mention of having to repent of anything!

Acts 16:30-31 niv
"He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

Grace and peace, GeneZ

Luke 5:31

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinner to repentance."

I noticed the word repent...

 

[GenemZ]

yeah, we've seen all these before.
Not a word of it states a man cannot apostate himself of his own free will.

Being apostate means a believer moves over into a willful state of continuous carnality. A carnal believer, is a carnal believer. He is good for nothing. But, he remains saved.

Its really quite simple.

Sadly, you have something very confused in your thinking. But, its all too clear to you at the same time. No arguing with you. That would require that you would first see what it says plainly. You continuously refuse. So? What are we left with? To refute you for the sake of others who may be weak in this area of doctrine. For that, you serve a purpose in that they will be built up in the Word. Some here have already been. For that, I say, "thank you."

In Christ, GeneZ

 

[<Follower>]

Being apostate means a believer moves over into a willful state of continuous carnality. A carnal believer, is a carnal believer. He is good for nothing. But, he remains saved.

Not according Hebrews.

Its really quite simple.

It really is.

Sadly, you have something very confused in your thinking.

yeah.....heh heh......silly me.....I thought JESUS was the one with the authority to define the unforgivable sin.
What was I thinking

But, its all too clear to you at the same time. No arguing with you.

Sorry, its scripture that OSAS is
arguing agaisnt.
Instead of finding the harmony that makes all scripture true, OSAS makes anything that disagrees with the doctrine ''out of context''.
convienient.

That would require that you would first see what it says plainly.

yeah. that silly old Jesus, what was He thinking PLAINLY stating that "speaking against the Holy Spirit'' was the unforgivable sin.
He shoud have just waited for OSAS doctrine to define that for Him

You continuously refuse.

relentlessly.

So? What are we left with?

Your choice. I have plenty of time and energy.

To refute you for the sake of others who may be weak in this area of doctrine.

It seems the only ones that are impressed are the ones who believe the OSAS doctrine to begin with.
Our doctrinal stance has been defended very well, if I do say so myself.

For that, you serve a purpose in that they will be built up in the Word. Some here have already been. For that, I say, "thank you."

Bravo...very well played.
I saw thru it and Id bet the rest did too

 

[frumanchu]

Was Gods covenant to Isreal void of meaning as a whole because the few decided to reject it?

No, absolutely not. I fail to see though how that applies to what I said.

Youre presenting conjecture to fit your doctrine, nothing more.

No, I'm simply pointing to a consistent covenantal framework seen throughout Scripture. I don't believe that God suddenly completely changed the way he deals with man at Matthew 1:1.

The warnings of falling away are worded as such that one can easily see these are people who were repentant...

As was Esau...

....and were sanctified by the blood of Christ.....

Sanctified...set apart. That is a very distinct aspect of the covenant people of God. Israel as a nation was set apart, yet not all Jews were believers even though they dwelt among the covenant people.

What is required for salvation? All this talk that they werent really saved is fabrication to justify what you all believe. None of you are in a position to dispute whether these ''beleived' and confessed with their mouths or not.

I'm sorry you see it as a fabrication, but I'm certainly not making this up.

You point out a very important point. I don't know whether those who confessed faith in Christ actually believed in Him unto salvation. Neither do you. NEITHER DID PAUL (assuming he is indeed the author of Hebrews). Throughout the epistles of the NT, the audience is commonly addressed by their confession. There are times when there are statements clearly directed solely at true believers, but for the most part they are addressed by their confession (which places them in the covenant community). The admonishments given throughout these letters will only truly be heeded by those who truly believe. The rest will in time fall away, thereby showing they were never really of them to begin with (1 John 2:19).

Tell me, follower....if we are told that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and given an earnest guarantee of our salvation (Eph 1:13-14)...if we are told that He is able to keep us from stumbling and to present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24)...if we are told that He is at work within us both to will and to do (Phil 2:13)...if we are told that He is able to preserve us and deliver us from every evil work (2 Tim 4:18)...if we are told that those He justified will be glorified (Rom 8:30)...if we are told He will confirm us to the end (1 Cor 1:8)...if we are told we are sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30)...if we are told we are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation (1 Pet 1:5)...if we are told that whatever is born of God overcomes the world (1 John 5:4)...if we are told it is God who give the increase (1 Cor 3:6)...if we are told we are preserved in Jesus Christ (Jude 1)...if we are told He is faithful to those He calls and will preserve them spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23-24)...if we are told none shall snatch His sheep out of His hand (John 10:28)...if we are told He is able to put His fear in our hearts so that we will not depart from Him (Jer 32:40).......then how is it we are "fabricating" things in order to justify a belief that those who have trusted in Chris to the saving of their souls "can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved?"

 

[frumanchu]

Please no debating about whether it can happen or not, Romans 7 shows that the old man is still present in us and capable of sin.

Does the Holy Spirit have any say or effect in the matter? Or is the believer "on his own" in this case?

 

[GenemZ]

Luke 5:31

Jesus answered them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but the sinner to repentance."

I noticed the word repent...

That was spoken while yet under the dispensation of Law. It was yet the age of Israel. Things changed.

Acts 19:4 niv
"Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus. On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus."

They were not told to repent. During the time of John the baptist they were to repent of their sins as a preparation for the one who was to come. After He came? Unless they were resisting belief in Christ, and needing to repent (change their minds)? It now was, to "believe."

Acts 16:31 niv
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household."

You will see no repentance mentioned in context to Acts 16:31.

Matthew 21:32 niv
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him."

The religious leaders refused to believe. Jesus told them that they still refused to believe. That they refused to "repent."

http://www.data-boy.net/reference/vines/index.asp

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words

1metanoeo (Verb)

Lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," hence signifies "to change one's mind or purpose," always, in the NT, involving a change for the better, an amendment, and always, except in Lu. 17:3,4, of "repentance" from sin. The word is found in the Synoptic Gospels (in Lu. , nine times), in Ac. five times, in the Re. twelve times, eight in the messages to the churches, Re. 2:5 (twice),16,21 (twice), RV, "she willeth not to repent" (2nd part); Re. 3:3,19 (the only churches in those chapters which contain no exhortation in this respect are those at Smyrna and Php. adelphia); elsewhere only in 2Co. 12:21.

http://www.data-boy.net/reference/vines/index.asphttp://www.data-boy.net/reference/vines/index.asp


When they were told to repent and believe? It could be better said today....

"Stop resisting the truth, Change your mind! Believe! "

I pray that some here that did not know this, are getting this....

Grace and peace, GeneZ