What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[Timtofly]

But John says the saints in Revelation 7 have come out of great tribulation.
before any trumpets or bowls.
the sign that Jesus says happens immediately after the tribulation (referring back to the great tribulation), is the 6th seal, before any ttrumpets or bowls.

Like I dunno how much harder I can beat this dead horse that you can't see.
You're clinging to a bad definition so hard just white knuckling even though the text tells you it's wrong.

It's like you know that recognizing this fact will undermine your eschatalogical position, so you won't let it go.

That great tribulation is the whole church age. The fulness of the Gentiles. The persecution of the church.


The GT at the Second Coming is for Jacob. Jacob's trouble is the GT during the first 6 Trumpets. The great tribulation and tribulation of those days is Matthew 24:4-14


"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

All those people in Revelation 7 are the whole congregation in Paradise over the last 1993 years. They currently serve God day and night in His Temple. They have since the Cross.

 

[keras]

Correct, the seals are end of the age events.

Explain then; The Fifth Seal. Does it not include the Christians killed by lions?

We have all the effects of the first five Seals, they are the 'birth pangs' of the new age. The next 'birth pang', will be the Sixth Seal, the worldwide disaster which will commence all of the rest of the Prophesied end time events.

 

[keras]

The GT at the Second Coming is for Jacob.

The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpet's and the 7 Bowls, is against the ungodly peoples, those who take the mark of the 'beast'.
Revelation 16:10-11 and many other verses make this clear.

The tribulation for Jacob happened in 70 AD and will again when the Jewish State of Israel is judged and punished on the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. The Sixth Seal. Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 22:1-14, Zephaniah 1:1-18

 

[Jamdoc]

That great tribulation is the whole church age. The fulness of the Gentiles. The persecution of the church.


The GT at the Second Coming is for Jacob. Jacob's trouble is the GT during the first 6 Trumpets. The great tribulation and tribulation of those days is Matthew 24:4-14


"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

All those people in Revelation 7 are the whole congregation in Paradise over the last 1993 years. They currently serve God day and night in His Temple. They have since the Cross.

That's not what Jesus says
Jesus says the great tribulation begins after the abomination of Desolation, but that the generation that saw these things would not pass away until all things were fulfilled.
so if it's 70AD was the AoD, well that generation passed away before all these things could be fulfilled, "all these things" including the 2nd coming in Matthew 24:29-31

It doesn't suggest a 1900 year great tribulation it suggests a much shorter period of time that one generation will live through.

 

[Douggg]

Explain then; The Fifth Seal. Does it not include the Christians killed by lions?

No. Those Christians, now asleep in Christ, will be resurrected, given incorruptible everlasting bodies, at the time of the rapture/resurrection event, and will be rewarded for their dying as martyrers for Jesus, in heaven, while the world goes through the great tribulation here on earth. Everyone taken in that event will stand before Jesus, and be rewarded for the things we have done in this body for the cause of Christ. You might want to take a look at Luke 21:36.

When Jesus Returns, they and the other resurrected and raptured Christians will return with Jesus as the bride of Christ. After the thousand years, Satan's last rebellion, and him being cast into the lake of fire, along with death and hell, and the destruction of this current earth, and after the Great White Throne Judgement - there will be the new earth and new Jerusalem, also referred to as a bride because it will be populated by the raptured/resurrected saints, the bride of Christ.

 

[Jamdoc]

Explain then; The Fifth Seal. Does it not include the Christians killed by lions?

We have all the effects of the first five Seals, they are the 'birth pangs' of the new age. The next 'birth pang', will be the Sixth Seal, the worldwide disaster which will commence all of the rest of the Prophesied end time events.

Nope, there's been Martyrs since Abel. The very first murder was a Martyrdom since it was for his worship of God that God approved.
the 5th seal is a very specific period of Martyrdom.

Daniel 7

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

In other words, the Antichrist (the little horn) makes war with the saints (great tribulation), until the Ancient of Days (God) comes down (as Jesus) and delivers them.

We see this in Revelation as well, you just choose to inject something else into the text rather than pull out of the text that the sixth seal contains the signs that Jesus said come immediately after the tribulation, and in between the 6th and 7th seal, the saints are said to be those who came out of great tribulation, meaning it was something in the past.

If you stop abusing "flash forward" and just, take what the text says, you'll see that the great tribulation ended then, and the wrath of God is about to begin.

But it's addressed in a Parallel as well
Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The bolded part being a reference back to Daniel 7 In fact Revelation 13 is all connected to Daniel 7.

To lay it out in no uncertain terms:
Great Tribulation = Antichrist's war against the saints, NOT the wrath of God
Wrath of God = Trumpets and Bowls, which are the RETRIBUTION for the Great Tribulation. It is not wrath against sin in general, it is retribution specifically for dividing His land (controversy of Zion) and for the war against the saints.

Great Tribulation is used to refer to something prior to the trumpets and bowls, and when the trumpets and bowls come they are identified as the wrath of the lamb (trumpets) and the wrath of God (bowls) specifically, the word "tribulation" is never associated with them in Revelation. Ever.
Only wrath.

 

[didactics]

I would put this under "Other Eschatology". I wanted to include "some combination of the above" in the options, but unfortunately the forum software limits the amount of poll choices I can put in a poll. Sorry about that.

The problem is that there are too many views about the timing of the rapture. And partial preterism is an umbrella term. It might have been better not to specify what kind of preterist someone is and just have postmill and amill as the only option for them. And if it were me, I would only have two options for the futurist: dispensational premill and historic premill. But I realize these polls are hard to do; you either try to include everyone and still leave someone out or you intentionally narrow the options. But I kind of like the four major views of the millennium approach. Or maybe you could intentionally use umbrella terms and offer four views of Revelation: historicist, preterist, futurist and idealist.

 

[keras]

No. Those Christians, now asleep in Christ, will be resurrected, given incorruptible everlasting bodies, at the time of the rapture/resurrection event, and will be rewarded for their dying as martyrers for Jesus, in heaven, while the world goes through the great tribulation here on earth. Everyone taken in that event will stand before Jesus, and be rewarded for the things we have done in this body for the cause of Christ. You might want to take a look at Luke 21:36.

When Jesus Returns, they and the other resurrected and raptured Christians will return with Jesus as the bride of Christ.

Unscriptural nonsense.
There is no change from mortality for anyone before God sits in Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15.

Luke 21:36 is a reference to that Judgment, after the Millennium.

Great Tribulation is used to refer to something prior to the trumpets and bowls

You refer to Revelation 7:14, where the saints who stood firm in their faith through the great ordeal of the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, are rewarded with white robes.
The actual Great Tribulation is the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 42 months of this age.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Usually what happens is: I state my viewpoint.

Someone assigns me one of the poll views based on that.

I look up what that view means and it does not represent what I understand from the scriptures.

1) At the beginning of Acts Jesus said that it is not given to us to know the times set by the Father's power. This is spoken to those who would write the scriptures, that people use today to try and prove the myriad of positions stating we can do what the scripture says we can't.

2) God is not the author of confusion, the myriad of viewpoints indicates that no one gets it, nor are they supposed to.

3) The scripture talking about the rapture in Matthew speaks of the wicked being taken away, like with the flood in the days of noah. I don't understand why people want to be raptured, is it a confession?

 

[Douggg]

Luke 21:36 is a reference to that Judgment, after the Millennium.

No, Luke 21:36 is before the great tribulation begins. To escape having to go through it.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[didactics]

Usually what happens is: I state my viewpoint.

Someone assigns me one of the poll views based on that.

I look up what that view means and it does not represent what I understand from the scriptures.

1) At the beginning of Acts Jesus said that it is not given to us to know the times set by the Father's power. This is spoken to those who would write the scriptures, that people use today to try and prove the myriad of positions stating we can do what the scripture says we can't.

2) God is not the author of confusion, the myriad of viewpoints indicates that no one gets it, nor are they supposed to.

3) The scripture talking about the rapture in Matthew speaks of the wicked being taken away, like with the flood in the days of noah. I don't understand why people want to be raptured, is it a confession?

You should believe in the rapture even if you're not a premill because it simply means that God sets everything right for the believers at his second coming. Yes, no one knows the time that the second coming will happen, this is true. However, I think the reference you make about Matthew speaking on the subject of the rapture is not a correct interpretation. I used to think it was speaking about the rapture, but I think it's just talking about the wicked being taken away and it is explaining how the humble will inherit the earth. That's how I heard one pastor put it anyway.

 

[Timtofly]

That's not what Jesus says
Jesus says the great tribulation begins after the abomination of Desolation, but that the generation that saw these things would not pass away until all things were fulfilled.
so if it's 70AD was the AoD, well that generation passed away before all these things could be fulfilled, "all these things" including the 2nd coming in Matthew 24:29-31

It doesn't suggest a 1900 year great tribulation it suggests a much shorter period of time that one generation will live through.

You are missing the point that is the whole church gathered after the Second Coming in Revelation 7.

Not every single believer in the last 1993 years was persecuted. But Jesus promised the time between when He left and when He would return would be full of trouble. Full of tribulation, even if some never had trouble at all in their life.

The Second Coming happens after the blooming of the fig tree, not prior to. The fig tree already bloomed. Where is the AoD? Where is the GT of Jacob's trouble?

 

[Douggg]

The Second Coming happens after the blooming of the fig tree, not prior to. The fig tree already bloomed. Where is the AoD? Where is the GT of Jacob's trouble?

Sometime in the near future, before the fig tree generation would normally expire.

1967 + 70 = 2037. minus the 7 years 2030.

 

[keras]

No, Luke 21:36 is before the great tribulation begins. To escape having to go through it.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Standing before the Lord is a reference to the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

The 'escape all these things, or as the REBible puts it: to pass safely through', is before the GT, as you say. And how the Lords faithful people will do that, is to be taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

 

[Jamdoc]

Unscriptural nonsense.
There is no change from mortality for anyone before God sits in Judgment and the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15.

Luke 21:36 is a reference to that Judgment, after the Millennium.

You refer to Revelation 7:14, where the saints who stood firm in their faith through the great ordeal of the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, are rewarded with white robes.
The actual Great Tribulation is the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 42 months of this age.

are you going to argue with Jesus on that point? Because that's not what in the text. I see they have come out of great tribulation, and Jesus said in Matthew 24:29 that the signs of the 6th seal come immediately after the tribulation.

Show me one verse that calls the trumpets or bowls tribulation, because that's not in the text, but Revelation 15:7 specifies that the 7 vials are the wrath of God. This isn't a debate, this isn't a doctrine of man, this is scripture.

 

[Jamdoc]

You are missing the point that is the whole church gathered after the Second Coming in Revelation 7.

Not every single believer in the last 1993 years was persecuted. But Jesus promised the time between when He left and when He would return would be full of trouble. Full of tribulation, even if some never had trouble at all in their life.

This part is true. Yes, Revelation 7 shows the result of all believers up to that point, who have been resurrected or raptured without dying. They are ALL, as the body of Christ presented as having all gone through great tribulation even if they were not alive during the 5th seal or mark of the beast. Everyone who overcomes in Christ, is presented as such, because it is one body in which we are all members.

Remember what Paul said on this in 1 Corinthians 12?

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

That is how you have consistency, that the great tribulation happens within 1 generation (not 2000 years), begins after the abomination of desolation, and at the rapture, all are said to have come out of great tribulation... because you're actually missing something too in your understanding... it's not just the church age that is resurrected at that time, but old testament saints as well. It's all who are dead/sleep in Christ.

The Second Coming happens after the blooming of the fig tree, not prior to. The fig tree already bloomed. Where is the AoD? Where is the GT of Jacob's trouble?

It's not the blooming in Matthew 24.. the fig tree brings forth new leaves, not a blossom, just waking up from hibernation, new leaves, no blossoms and no fruit..

In 70 AD, the fig tree withered. It didn't bloom, Israel was not gathered, they were scattered. Ezekiel 36 has Israel regathered into their land.... and AFTER that the Lord cleanses them and gives them a new heart. They are regathered into the land filthy and in unbelief.

So the fig tree.. outside Jerusaelm Jesus found a fig tree (Matthew 21), He searched for fruit but found none. So Jesus withered the tree.
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told His disciples, that fig tree was a parable. It was unfruitful, so it would wither, but when it began to bring forth new leaves.. coming back after hibernation - but yet unfruitful, that's how you'd know the time of the end was near and it was the last generation before the end of the age. 70AD can't be what Jesus was talking about, because that is the withering. Then there's a long period of dormancy where the tree is withered. Jesus promised, that Israel would come back into the land after being withered, it goes back to the Ezekiel 36 promise.

BUT, the fig tree has still not become fruitful. That is part of the purpose of the 70th week. To try Israel by tribulation, and have them turn to Christ as their salvation, to break their resistance and hardness of heart. To let them see a false messiah, whereby they can be pointed to the real one and believe.

 

[Douggg]

Standing before the Lord is a reference to the GWT Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15

The 'escape all these things, or as the REBible puts it: to pass safely through', is before the GT, as you say. And how the Lords faithful people will do that, is to be taken to a place of safety for those 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

No, it does not say taken to a place of safety (here on earth) in the text.

Standing before the Son of man in Luke 21:36 is because those escaping the great tribulation have been found worthy... by their prayers and faith that Jesus is going to rapture them out of the world to heaven before the great tribulation takes place.


36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[didactics]

No, it does not say taken to a place of safety (here on earth) in the text.

Standing before the Son of man in Luke 21:36 is because those escaping the great tribulation have been found worthy... by their prayers and faith that Jesus is going to rapture them out of the world to heaven before the great tribulation takes place.


36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now if I could jump in a little. My take on end times has shifted a lot. I was sure that premill was the answer, but now I'm leaning toward partial preterism, which means I don't know yet whether I hold to amill or postmill. A book I want to consider reading on the subject (eventually) is, Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg.
With that being said, the way I think the rapture will be is that everyone (saints) will either resurrect from the dead or those alive will be transformed (leaving there old bodies, so a kind of death) and "will meet the Lord" "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17). IOW it will all be at one moment for the introduction of new things and the beginning of the restoration of the new heaven and the new earth.

 

[Douggg]

think the rapture will be is that everyone (saints) will either resurrect from the dead or those alive will be transformed (leaving there old bodies, so a kind of death) and "will meet the Lord" "in the air" (1 Thess 4:17).

diatactics,

The rapture of the living won't be a kind of death, because no-one will die due to the rapture, then resurrected back to life.

It will be the sudden transformation, in the twinkling of an eye, a change of the body, becoming incorruptible and glorified.

IOW it will all be at one moment for the introduction of new things and the beginning of the restoration of the new heaven and the new earth.

The new heaven (universe) and the new earth - are after the Great White Thone judgment. Those are in Revelation 21.

The new heaven and new earth are not restorations of the present earth and universe, as those will be destroyed and the works therein burnt up. 2Peter3:9-13.

The new heaven and new earth are replacements.
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There will be a restoration of all things to this present earth. It will take place during Jesus's thousand year reign beginning when He returns. Also known as the messianic age.

Then the destruction of this present earth and universe after the thousand years are over. Revelation 20:11.

 

[Timtofly]

This part is true. Yes, Revelation 7 shows the result of all believers up to that point, who have been resurrected or raptured without dying. They are ALL, as the body of Christ presented as having all gone through great tribulation even if they were not alive during the 5th seal or mark of the beast. Everyone who overcomes in Christ, is presented as such, because it is one body in which we are all members.

Remember what Paul said on this in 1 Corinthians 12?


That is how you have consistency, that the great tribulation happens within 1 generation (not 2000 years), begins after the abomination of desolation, and at the rapture, all are said to have come out of great tribulation... because you're actually missing something too in your understanding... it's not just the church age that is resurrected at that time, but old testament saints as well. It's all who are dead/sleep in Christ.


It's not the blooming in Matthew 24.. the fig tree brings forth new leaves, not a blossom, just waking up from hibernation, new leaves, no blossoms and no fruit..

In 70 AD, the fig tree withered. It didn't bloom, Israel was not gathered, they were scattered. Ezekiel 36 has Israel regathered into their land.... and AFTER that the Lord cleanses them and gives them a new heart. They are regathered into the land filthy and in unbelief.

So the fig tree.. outside Jerusaelm Jesus found a fig tree (Matthew 21), He searched for fruit but found none. So Jesus withered the tree.
In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus told His disciples, that fig tree was a parable. It was unfruitful, so it would wither, but when it began to bring forth new leaves.. coming back after hibernation - but yet unfruitful, that's how you'd know the time of the end was near and it was the last generation before the end of the age. 70AD can't be what Jesus was talking about, because that is the withering. Then there's a long period of dormancy where the tree is withered. Jesus promised, that Israel would come back into the land after being withered, it goes back to the Ezekiel 36 promise.

BUT, the fig tree has still not become fruitful. That is part of the purpose of the 70th week. To try Israel by tribulation, and have them turn to Christ as their salvation, to break their resistance and hardness of heart. To let them see a false messiah, whereby they can be pointed to the real one and believe.

"Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:"

Where in this verse does it tell us that there has to be fruit as a sign of the Second Coming?

The branch is yet tender, and putting forth leaves. Nothing about bearing fruit. Summer is nigh, the bearing fruit will not happen until after the Second Coming.

The time of great tribulation was the period of dormancy. The "The GT" is the period of bearing fruit. The church does not bear fruit in the GT. Israel does. The fig tree is not the church, it is Israel. The Second Coming is not just about the rapture of the Church, but more Israel's King returned to them, so they can bear fruit. Blooming is a sign of bearing fruit. The bloom is just the first step. Fruit comes later. Some blooms don't become fruit at all.

The GT is the Trumpets after the Second Coming. If you are waiting for Satan to take over Israel first, that is not going to happen.