What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[keras]

Where in scripture do you get this timing
Because that's not what fits the text.

By reading and understanding Revelation. From the next Prophesied event; the great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, until the Glorious Return of Jesus, has to be at least 10 years and we need to fit in the Gog/Magog attack and the 7 year clean up.

This time period IS told to us in Revelation 8:1, the Seventh Seal period of silence in heaven of about a half hour. Using the formula given in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, we can ascertain how long that would be in earth time.
One 48th of a day in heaven equals 1/48th of a thousand earth years, which is about 20 years.

No doubt you will flat out reject this truth, mostly because Keraz believes it and because it simply does not fit your paradigm of the end times.
All I ask is that people give it some consideration. We are not told why there should be a period of silence in heaven, but it is logical that if God is going to allow the 'beast' of Revelation 13, to take control of the world, He has to be silent about it.

 

[Jamdoc]

By reading and understanding Revelation. From the next Prophesied event; the great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, until the Glorious Return of Jesus, has to be at least 10 years and we need to fit in the Gog/Magog attack and the 7 year clean up.

This time period IS told to us in Revelation 8:1, the Seventh Seal period of silence in heaven of about a half hour. Using the formula given in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8, we can ascertain how long that would be in earth time.
One 48th of a day in heaven equals 1/48th of a thousand earth years, which is about 20 years.

No doubt you will flat out reject this truth, mostly because Keraz believes it and because it simply does not fit your paradigm of the end times.
All I ask is that people give it some consideration. We are not told why there should be a period of silence in heaven, but it is logical that if God is going to allow the 'beast' of Revelation 13, to take control of the world, He has to be silent about it.

I repeat
where in scripture do you see these time gaps.
they are not given in scripture.

 

[Douggg]

The question is, how long do you think this false messianic period will be? And if the rapture happens early, would you assume that this false messianic period would soon follow?

Around 3 years as an educated guess.

We are not given enough information to know precisely how long the false messianic period of perceived peace and safety will be - because it end suddenly, unannounced, like a thief in the night, by the Antichrist's transgression of desolation act.

We can make an educated guess, though, based on three factors. Beginning in reverse order....

1. The Abominaton of Desolation statue image of the slain come back to life revealed man of sin will be setup on the temple mount 1335 days before Jesus returns. i.e. 1185 days (3 years 105 days) into the 2520 day 7 years. That is the one fixed anchor we have. day 1185.

2. Before then, the revealed man of sin will have to be killed by strangers - i.e. assassinated. And brought back to life. Ezekiel 28:1-10 (killed). Isaiah 14:18-20 (brought back to life).

3. Before then (before being killed), the person as the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act - ending the false messianic age of perceived peace and safety.


From that information, for the educated guess....


day 1............................3 years (the guess) the ToD act....... from then, 105 days allowed for the revealed man of sin to be killed/brought back to life......... AoD setup on the 3 years 105 days (day 1185) point of the timeline.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The fixed anchored information...

day 1......................... day 1185 AoD.................................................day 2475 Sign of the Son of Man in heaven...................day 2520 Jesus's Return.

From day 1185 AoD to day 2520 Jesus Return = 1335 days the length of the great tribulation.
From day 1185 AoD to day 2475 Sign of the Son of Man in heaven = 1290 days, called the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29)

The 1290 days and 1335 days are from Daniel 12:11-12.

In the 45 days between the two, the kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon, and devise a plan to take half of Jerusalem (the Jews there) as hostages (Zechariah 14:2) - in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing judgment on them.

 

[DavidPT]

Here's something in Revelation I equate that to
Revelation 16


Just thinking if the sun is 7 times more luminous it'd be scorching hot right? The bridle in the jaws of the people, makes me think of the 5th vial, the gnawing their tongues for pain and blaspheming God.

Now back to Isaiah 30



now Revelation 16


Same things.. the voice, lightning, hail

Now back to Isaiah 30



now Revelation 19



So not referring to 6th seal, but the end bowl judgements and Armageddon, which Armageddon is what Zechariah 14 is talking about as well.


6th seal in Isaiah is in Isaiah 13


So, it's specified as the Day of the Lord, which can be cross referenced all over the Old Testament where Isaiah 30 is not specifying the Day of the Lord, it has the darkening of the sun and moon, the heavenly disturbances, the sense of fear of those on the Earth

compare to the 6th seal


and just for those like keras who claim it's different because they think that the moon shines bright red and that the 6th seal isn't referring to the Old Testament Day of the Lord...

Joel 2


Mind you these signs happened during the crucifixion, and were recorded in Chinese imperial annals. It's a foreshadowing, as Jesus' crucifixion was not coming with destruction.

Common themes in the Day of the Lord, the darkening of the sun and moon or the moon becoming like blood (which is also darkened), the heavens rolling up like a scroll, the stars falling, earthquake, islands and mountains moving (so yeah.. earthquake), clouds and thick darkness (though Amos 8 has it begin in a clear day so I suppose the clouds roil up after the sun goes dark)

It will not be rationally explainable to say the least.

But another common theme is.. God comes down angry, and comes with wrath and destruction.

Not at the end of wrath and destruction, but He brings it with Him. Revelation just details out how that wrath is going to manifest and carry out.

I have considered that possibility before. But if Isaiah 30:26 is connected with Zechariah 14:7 though, and that verse 7 is connected with verses 8-11, in that case Isaiah 30:26 can't be involving any of the vials of wrath since Zechariah 14:7-11 isn't. I haven't checked every site on the planet that does cross refs, but the ones I have checked, they all list Zechariah 14:7 as a cross ref. They don't list the 4th vial as a cross ref. Keeping in mind, meaning the ones I checked. Before I even checked sites like this, I had already determined in my mind that Isaiah 30:26 appears to be connected with Zechariah 14:7. Which means these sites are confirming to me that I was correct to make that connection.

 

[keras]

where in scripture do you see these time gaps.
they are not given in scripture.

But they are: Revelation 9:5 mentions a 5 month time, Ezekiel 39:8-9; seven years and all the other prophesied things before Jesus Returns, take time.
God has a reason for not making the Prophesies clear. He allows people to make their own speculations and to argue against the truths. They dig themselves into a pit of their own making.

I have considered that possibility before. But if Isaiah 30:26 is connected with Zechariah 14:7

Not possible, those two Prophesies are totally unrelated.
Zechariah 14:3-21, is all about the Return of Jesus, Armageddon and the Millennium Kingdom.

 

[Jamdoc]

I have considered that possibility before. But if Isaiah 30:26 is connected with Zechariah 14:7 though, and that verse 7 is connected with verses 8-11, in that case Isaiah 30:26 can't be involving any of the vials of wrath since Zechariah 14:7-11 isn't. I haven't checked every site on the planet that does cross refs, but the ones I have checked, they all list Zechariah 14:7 as a cross ref. They don't list the 4th vial as a cross ref. Keeping in mind, meaning the ones I checked. Before I even checked sites like this, I had already determined in my mind that Isaiah 30:26 appears to be connected with Zechariah 14:7. Which means these sites are confirming to me that I was correct to make that connection.

Well.. toss out other men's cross references. They're men. Does the scripture align? That's how you should judge. Not based on what websites and other people teach. I think from the scripture we can align Zechariah 14 with Armageddon/Revelation 19, and we can match Isaiah 30 to both as well. Or at least that's what I see, and I'm not going by any sort of extrabiblical book I'm just looking at the scripture and those things play out in the same order as Revelation 16 so.. it seems likely they are describing the same events.

 

[Jamdoc]

But they are: Revelation 9:5 mentions a 5 month time, Ezekiel 39:8-9; seven years and all the other prophesied things before Jesus Returns, take time.
God has a reason for not making the Prophesies clear. He allows people to make their own speculations and to argue against the truths. They dig themselves into a pit of their own making.

Uh, that's not a gap in time between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet though.
NO time gap is given in scripture between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet (I believe they happen on the same day)

 

[Douggg]

Uh, that's not a gap in time between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet though.
NO time gap is given in scripture between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet (I believe they happen on the same day)

Jamdoc, separate from your discussion with keras ,if you look at the six seals as six segments to the 7 year 70th week - the seals will make sense. It is our base foundational level of information for events in Revelation, as the seals on the book are removed. Please look at the chart below.

Next, we keep reading in Revelation for the next level of information. In Revelation 7, we are formally told about the coming Great Tribulation.

We know from other text in the Bible,, beginning in Matthew 24:15 that the Great Tribulation begins with the AoD, the abomination of desolation , set up in the holy place (the temple mount location). So we can add that to our second level of information, as well as, the ToD, transgression of desolation act that will precede the AoD - by a guesstimate of around 105 days between the two (see my post #183 for how I came up with 105 days guesstimate).

So now our chart looks like this.... showing the Great Tribulation... and the great multitude of Revelation 7.

As we continue reading in Revelation, in Revelation 8-9, we read about the seventh seal opened - and the trumpet events. 1 through 4. Then the last 3 being woe to the inhabiters of the earth trumpet events. Two of the woe trumpets are revealed in Revelation 9.

For a total of 6 trumpet events.

We can now add a third level of information to our chart. To look like this....

As we continue reading through Revelation, we are looking to find that 7th trumpet, and the third woe event when it is sounded.

In Revelation 11, after the 1260 days of the two witnesses, we find the 7th trumpet sounding. But no third woe found in Revelation 11, but we are told it is coming soon. And sure enough in Revelation 12:12, we find out what it is - Satan cast down to earth having great wrath.

So now we can complete our chart, which shows the 7th trumpet, 3rd woe.

Since Satan will be cast down to earth, a falling star as described in Revelation 9, who will open the bottomless pit, to free his cohorts who soon will also be judged, we can aligned the 7th trumpet, third woe - right above the 6th trumpet first woe.

To look like this, our fourth level of information....

Now we have a good understanding of Revelation, the seals and the trumpets, the great tribulation, the placement of the ToD and AoD, and the armies gather at Armageddon to (in vain) make war on Jesus, and the 7th vial poured out right before Jesus descends from heaven.

 

[Jamdoc]

Jamdoc, separate from your discussion with keras ,if you look at the six seals as six segments to the 7 year 70th week - the seals will make sense. It is our base foundational level of information for events in Revelation, as the seals on the book are removed. Please look at the chart below.


View attachment 328128



Next, we keep reading in Revelation for the next level of information. In Revelation 7, we are formally told about the coming Great Tribulation.

We know from other text in the Bible,, beginning in Matthew 24:15 that the Great Tribulation begins with the AoD, the abomination of desolation , set up in the holy place (the temple mount location). So we can add that to our second level of information, as well as, the ToD, transgression of desolation act that will precede the AoD - by a guesstimate of around 105 days between the two (see my post #183 for how I came up with 105 days guesstimate).

So now our chart looks like this.... showing the Great Tribulation... and the great multitude of Revelation 7.

View attachment 328137


As we continue reading in Revelation, in Revelation 8-9, we read about the seventh seal opened - and the trumpet events. 1 through 4. Then the last 3 being woe to the inhabiters of the earth trumpet events. Two of the woe trumpets are revealed in Revelation 9.

For a total of 6 trumpet events.

We can now add a third level of information to our chart. To look like this....


View attachment 328131

As we continue reading through Revelation, we are looking to find that 7th trumpet, and the third woe event when it is sounded.

In Revelation 11, after the 1260 days of the two witnesses, we find the 7th trumpet sounding. But no third woe found in Revelation 11, but we are told it is coming soon. And sure enough in Revelation 12:12, we find out what it is - Satan cast down to earth having great wrath.

So now we can complete our chart, which shows the 7th trumpet, 3rd woe.

Since Satan will be cast down to earth, a falling star as described in Revelation 9, who will open the bottomless pit, to free his cohorts who soon will also be judged, we can aligned the 7th trumpet, third woe - right above the 6th trumpet first woe.

To look like this, our fourth level of information....

Now we have a good understanding of Revelation, the seals and the trumpets, the great tribulation, the placement of the ToD and AoD, and the armies gather at Armageddon to (in vain) make war on Jesus.

View attachment 328136

Here's the problem.
You still see Great Tribulation as being attached to the wrath of God
rather than understanding it comes before.
Read Revelation 7 and reject the temptation to make it a "flash forward" and then come to understand what it means.

The signs of the 6th seal Jesus gave as happening AFTER tribulation
In between the 6th and 7th seal we have the saints in heaven having COME OUT of Great Tribulation.
It's a past event.
The trumpets and bowls are NEVER
NEVER
identified as tribulation
the term is simply never used to associate with them, and Jesus never describes anything like the trumpets or bowls in the Olivet Discourse.
In Revelation the trumpets and bowls are associated with the wrath of the Lamb, and the wrath of God respectively.

If you believe that Great Tribulation comes AFTER the 6th seal, then Jesus would have lied, and John would be mistaken in Revelation 7 or forcing it to be a "flash forward"

But if Great Tribulation refers to the 5th seal, or even the first 5 seals together, then it is consistent. It's consistent with what Jesus said, and consistent with John's observation in Revelation 7... WITHOUT A FLASH FORWARD.

 

[Douggg]

The trumpets and bowls are NEVER
NEVER
identified as tribulation

Yes, they certainly are by virtue that they cause - a state of great trouble or suffering (the definition of tribulation).

If you believe that Great Tribulation comes AFTER the 6th seal, then Jesus would have lied, and John would be mistaken in Revelation 7 or forcing it to be a "flash forward"

I have no idea what you are talking about "flash forward" regarding the 6th seal. There is no "flash forward" involved. Try to re-communicate what you mean.

The great tribulation begins when the AoD is setup to be worshiped and lasts 1335 days until Jesus returns. On the chart, it is the brown shaded area from the AoD all the way to day 2520, the day Jesus return to the Mt of Olives.

The light yellow shaded area of the 7 vials (with the 7th vial highlighted in green) is nestled within the brown shaded area. i.e. the seven vials of God's wrath are within the 1335 day Great Tribulation.

The sixth seal event is after most of the great tribulation is over, but not completely over. In Revelation 16, as a result of the sudden appearance of Jesus in heaven sickle in hand , as the cosmos is rolled aside like a scroll, causes terror in the hearts of the evil men of the world and they decide to gather their armies at Armageddon to (in vain) make war against Jesus.

They are given 45 days (the last 45 days of the Great Tribulation) to assemble, and execute another part of their plan which will be to take half of Jerusalem as hostage.

At the very end of the 45 days, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out on the world in Revelation 16. Then Jesus descends to earth and carries out judgment on the beast, the false prophet, Satan, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered to make war on Him.

 

[Jamdoc]

Yes, they certainly are by virtue that they cause - a state of great trouble or suffering (the definition of tribulation).




I have no idea what you are talking about "flash forward" regarding the 6th seal. There is no "flash forward" involved. Try to re-communicate what you mean.

The great tribulation begins when the AoD is setup to be worshiped and lasts 1335 days until Jesus returns. On the chart, it is the brown shaded area from the AoD all the way to day 2520, the day Jesus return to the Mt of Olives.

The light yellow shaded area of the 7 vials (with the 7th vial highlighted in green) is nestled within the brown shaded area. i.e. the seven vials of God's wrath are within the 1335 day Great Tribulation.



View attachment 328145



The sixth seal event is after most of the great tribulation is over, but not completely over. In Revelation 16, as a result of the sudden appearance of Jesus in heaven sickle in hand , as the cosmos is rolled aside like a scroll, causes terror in the hearts of the evil men of the world and they decide to gather their armies at Armageddon to (in vain) make war against Jesus.

They are given 45 days (the last 45 days of the Great Tribulation) to assemble, and execute another part of their plan which will be to take half of Jerusalem as hostage.

At the very end of the 45 days, the 7th vial of God's wrath is poured out on the world in Revelation 16. Then Jesus descends to earth and carries out judgment on the beast, the false prophet, Satan, the kings of the earth, and their armies gathered to make war on Him.

Need to deal less with magic numbers and more on the signs and statements Jesus made.

According to Jesus the great tribulation begins after the midpoint, and is cut short. Meaning it doesn't last a full amount of time that is ordained for the Antichrist to rule, and immediately after the tribulation, the signs that match the sixth seal happen.

So when you see the saints in heaven in between the 6th seal and 7th seal, and John says they came out of Great Tribulation.. and they're holding objects in their hands and wearing clothes (IE they have bodies).. understand that the great tribulation is a past event from that perspective, it's over.

There is no great tribulation after the 6th seal.

any appointment of days given in scripture, is cut short for the saints, on a day or hour no one knows except God the Father. That day is not recorded in scripture anywhere.

If the saints had to go through the full 42 months, they'd all die. That's what Jesus said. It is ONLY for their sake, that those days are cut short.

 

[Douggg]

Need to deal less with magic numbers and more on the signs and statements Jesus made.

According to Jesus the great tribulation begins after the midpoint, and is cut short. Meaning it doesn't last a full amount of time that is ordained for the Antichrist to rule, and immediately after the tribulation, the signs that match the sixth seal happen.

Jesus never said the great tribulation begins after the midpoint. Go here and type in "midpoint" in the search box...

MIDPOINT IN THE BIBLE

See 'midpoint' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

The saying "cut short" does not mean reduce in length in terms of days. "cut short" means cut short of all flesh on earth being destroyed, leaving a lifeless planet. i.e. the great tribulation will be limited to 1335 days.

Again, after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29 is not say after the "great" tribulation is over. It is implying that after most of the great tribulation over - but not all of it over.

So when you see the saints in heaven in between the 6th seal and 7th seal, and John says they came out of Great Tribulation.. and they're holding objects in their hands and wearing clothes (IE they have bodies).. understand that the great tribulation is a past event from that perspective, it's over.

You are not going to understand Revelation, until you realize that the six seals in Chapter 6 are the 7 years divided into 6 sequential segments... that form the foundation for information to build upon... as a person embarks on reading the remainder of Revelation.

Please, speak also in terms of Chapters because reference to those help us to know where in Revelation information has been revealed.

What you are actually referring to is in Chapter 7, the great multitude in heaven that have come of great tribulation. That is when we are informed of the Great Tribulation and how expansive it will be to effect everyone in the world. Chapter 7 is not meaning that the Great Tribulation is over.... but that ii effects everyone in the world.

There is no great tribulation after the 6th seal.

The 6th seal event, according to Matthew 24:29 , begins near the end of the great tribulation - nearly over, but not quite - signified by saying "the tribulation of those days" in the text, leaving out the word "great".

any appointment of days given in scripture, is cut short for the saints, on a day or hour no one knows except God the Father. That day is not recorded in scripture anywhere.

If the saints had to go through the full 42 months, they'd all die. That's what Jesus said. It is ONLY for their sake, that those days are cut short.

The number of days are not lessened for any event. You are misunderstanding the term "cut short".

A great number of the saints - i.e. them who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation - will be martyred, and die by the hardships of the times. A number of the saints, however, will survive the great tribulation, to continue to live into the millennium, such as, the Jews in Jerusalem, who will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39).

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus never said the great tribulation begins after the midpoint. Go here and type in "midpoint" in the search box...

MIDPOINT IN THE BIBLE

See 'midpoint' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

[/QUOTE]
The association of the Abomination of Desolation with the midpoint of the 70th week comes from Daniel 9, and from parts of Revelation giving the the beast 42 months/1260 days (half of the 70th week)

The saying "cut short" does not mean reduce in length in terms of days. "cut short" means cut short of all flesh on earth being destroyed, leaving a lifeless planet. i.e. the great tribulation will be limited to 1335 days.

Again, after the tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29 is not say after the "great" tribulation is over. It is implying that after most of the great tribulation over - but not all of it over.

It's only for the elect's sake that they are cut short. You have to understand what tribulation means in context. The bible does not mean "anything bad that happens" when it's referring to tribulation, it is referring specifically to persecution, to man caused events.
Noah's flood is not called tribulation, and by the popular definition of tribulation, which is "anything bad that happens" or "the wrath of God" then the statement that the great tribulation will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." would be false, for 2 reasons.

#1 the flood in Noah's time killed every person on Earth except 8. The 70th week describes killing half of humanity, but more will survive than 8 most likely
#2. after the millennium everyone except the already resurrected must die because the next scene is at the great white throne of Judgement.
If those events, the wrath of God, are considered tribulation, then the "great tribulation" is a nothingburger compared to either.

So.. I get it, you're white knuckling a definition of tribulation that does not work, so that you can cling to a pretribulation rapture position.

But it doesn't work.

What Jesus was referring to in Matthew 24:21-22 was the war against the saints, that it'd be the worst religious persecution ever experienced on the planet, and it'd never be outdone. So worse than the Holocaust, worse than communist purges.. that's our high water mark as far as we know.
The goal of the war on the saints will be to kill and starve the saints and the Jews until they are all dead. That is what Jesus is referring to, not all life on the planet, but the elect. Jesus would not be able to fulfill promises He made if everyone who He would be returning to was dead.

Let's also point out that after the abomination of desolation, those living in Judea are told to flee.

What good is fleeing going to do if great tribulation was referring to the wrath of God? The unbelievers in Revelation 6 after the 6th seal try to run and hide, do you think it mattered when all the water was turned to blood and they had nothing to drink?
But if tribulation is specifically religious persecution by men.. then fleeing into the wilderness is a way to escape it. You go off the grid, you hide. If you evade capture, and manage to forage for food, or God provides.. well, you survive.... until your ability to find food is hindered, like say in the winter.

You are not going to understand Revelation, until you realize that the six seals in Chapter 6 are the 7 years divided into 6 sequential segments... that form the foundation for information to build upon... as a person embarks on reading the remainder of Revelation.

Revelation doesn't present them like that. Nothing in the 7 seals contains descriptions of anything taking place that even remotely sounds like acts of God... until the 6th.
The first 5 seals are all acts that men do. Even the famine, it's manufactured, it's caused by economics and war.

Please, speak also in terms of Chapters because reference to those help us to know where in Revelation information has been revealed.

What you are actually referring to is in Chapter 7, the great multitude in heaven that have come of great tribulation. That is when we are informed of thee Great Tribulation and how expansive it will be to effect everyone in the world. Chapter 7 is not meaning that the Great Tribulation is over.... but that ii effects everyone in the world.

When you combine the signs of the 6th seal with what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29, the Great Tribulation is over.
John said this multitude came out of the great tribulation, it's over.
They have bodies, they've been resurrected.

The 6th seal event, according to Matthew 24:29 , begins near the end of the great tribulation - nearly over, but not quite - signified by saying "the tribulation of those days" in the text, leaving out the word "great".

Context, what tribulation was He just talking about?
The great tribulation in Matthew 24:21.

The number of days are not lessened for any event. You are misunderstanding the term "cut short".

Matthew 24 disagrees

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The length of time is shortened, and nobody knows by how long.
"no man knows the day or hour" applies here, you're using date setting to plot out when Armageddon happens, that's a known date.

You have to get around that by saying there's a "secret rapture" that doesn't involve the 2nd coming even though Paul connected the rapture TO the second coming (and the 2nd coming happened first) in THE Rapture passage of 1 Thessalonians 4, and reaffirmed that connection in 2 Thessalonians 2:1.

I find it amusing that pretribulationists will say "Jesus is coming back" and to be ready for the rapture with that emphasis.... and then turn around and say the rapture is not Jesus coming from heaven.

It's all white knuckling a position that they internally know is not right.
I see it ALL THE TIME among pretribulationist prophecy updates and sermons. They have to say any time they talk about these things "but we know the rapture comes before the tribulation".. It's like they're doing self hypnosis.. if they repeat it to themselves enough times maybe they can convince themselves of it, or will it into being.

A great number of the saints - i.e. them who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation - will be martyred, and die by the hardships of the times. A number of the saints, however, will survive the great tribulation, to continue to live into the millennium, such as, the Jews in Jerusalem, who will say "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39).

Here's the problem with that view.
it contradicts the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25, which has Jesus outright refusing the foolish virgins who try to come late, He doesn't say "come back later" He refuses them.
It also contradicts Amos 8

Amos 8:

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord God, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:
10 And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day.

This is the 6th seal, the darkening of the sun in is reference to the day of the Lord, along with all the mourning and lamentation.. just like Zechariah 12, Just like Revelation 1:7, Just like Matthew 24:30, just like Revelation 6:15-17.. so .. that sets the stage, of when this famine referred to next happens.

11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

The famine of hearing the words of the Lord happens after the 6th seal. Why? I propose it is because everyone who would preach them has been taken from the Earth.

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

This doesn't look good for those left behind.. they can't find the Word of God. Nobody's preaching it, and it's possible they can't even find bibles on Earth anymore.

13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.

actually I hadn't particularly thought about this verse in context of the wrath of God in specific .. but I had just been talking about all the water turning to blood and not being able to find anything to drink... though normally I had just thought this verse was another reference to people trying to find the word of God, to learn how they might be saved.... and not finding it.

14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.

Here's the bleakest part... those people double down on idolatry, they can't find salvation, so they turn to something else.
The sin of Samaria is idolatry, Dan was the site of one of Jeraboam's golden calves, and Beersheba was the site of one of the 'high places' dedicated to Baal.

In essence, the Famine of the true religion, results in people turning to false religion... not a great post rapture revival.

it is echoed in revelation

Revelation 9

20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

We don't see any signs of any revival during the wrath of God.
we see cursing, blaspheming, and refusal to repent and stop worshiping devils.

 

[keras]

Uh, that's not a gap in time between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet though.
NO time gap is given in scripture between the 6th seal and 1st trumpet (I believe they happen on the same day)

Why is it that you and most others, jump to wrong conclusions? And fail to properly read my posts?
I plainly said that the 'about 20 years gap', is from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns.

What other explanation do you have for the Seventh Seal?

You are not going to understand Revelation, until you realize that the six seals in Chapter 6 are the 7 years divided into 6 sequential segments... that form the foundation for information to build upon... as a person embarks on reading the remainder of Revelation.

Be as confused as Douggg and ignore the Seventh Seal altogether.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why is it that you and most others, jump to wrong conclusions? And fail to properly read my posts?
I plainly said that the 'about 20 years gap', is from the Sixth Seal until Jesus Returns.

What other explanation do you have for the Seventh Seal?

sounds like it says for half an hour, not years.. that would be the same day.

Be as confused as Douggg and ignore the Seventh Seal altogether.

I don't think but I don't see years in it. I see half an hour, I also see heaven silent, and these are the same people in heaven who cheer the destruction of Babylon, something that makes the merchants on the earth mourn and wail. Yet they're silent here? why? The scripture does not say so all I can do is speculate admittedly. Most times people speculate that it's because of the severity of the judgements coming.. but as I pointed out, these people cheer on the death of all those in Babylon, seeing it as God taking out His vengeance for the martyrs.

so my speculation is.. that's when Jesus actually leaves heaven. At the sixth seal the heavens opened up and God on the throne and the lamb were visible by unbelievers.. think especially Jews and Muslims which do not believe in Jesus as divine.. they specify the Lamb.
They're not going to think some random catastrophe from the sun is the wrath of Jesus, they may attribute it to Yaweh or Allah, but they will not associate it with Jesus, the Lamb of God, no they will have to see Him.
So they see Him, but then there's a scene in heaven of God on the throne AND THE LAMB being worshiped.

But then heaven goes silent.. why aren't they still worshiping the Lamb?

 

[Douggg]

The association of the Abomination of Desolation with the midpoint of the 70th week comes from Daniel 9, and from parts of Revelation giving the the beast 42 months/1260 days (half of the 70th week)

It does not say midpoint in Daniel 9, but in the midst (in the kjv), i.e. middle part of the week. It is not giving the exact day of day 1260 midpoint in Daniel 9:27.

It's only for the elect's sake that they are cut short. You have to understand what tribulation means in context. The bible does not mean "anything bad that happens" when it's referring to tribulation, it is referring specifically to persecution, to man caused events.

I do understand what it means in context. It does not say only man-caused events. Here is the context...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Please, review the trumpets in Revelation 8-9 and vials in Revelation 16. Those are integral to the Great Tribulation.

Let's also point out that after the abomination of desolation, those living in Judea are told to flee.

What good is fleeing going to do if great tribulation was referring to the wrath of God?

The Great Tribulation includes the wrath of God, but not soley the wrath of God. Satan will be cast down to earth during the Great Tribulation having great wrath, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 12:12.

The Great Tribulation will also the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, and the center point of that trouble will be in Jerusalem, Judea, where when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped - anyone refusing to do so will be killed.

In the mountains, outside of Jerusalem, them who flee will be protected by God from the beast's and his military.

Revelation doesn't present them like that. Nothing in the 7 seals contains descriptions of anything taking place that even remotely sounds like acts of God... until the 6th.

The seventh seal is Revelation 8, which the 7 trumpets are sounded, when the 7th seal was removed.

The 7 trumpets....

1. hail, fire, mixed with blood - cast upon the earth, a third of the trees burnt up, all of the green grass. Mixed with blood, could be the effects of a nuclear war, I don't know. But all of the green grass burned up - would indicate judgement from God.

2. a great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea - is not something man-made. Sounds like a large asteroid striking the earth. Again a judgment coming from God. A third part of the sea becomes as blood - indicating a third of life in the sea will die. And also that a third part of the ships destroyed (verse 10) indicates a large asteroid - hitting somewhere in the Pacific.

3. a great star falling from heaven burning like a lamp - that is not man-made for sure. A third of the water on the earth become poisoned because of it. Sounds like another burning asteroid streaking across the continents as it enters the atmosphere. Breaking up into fragments as it goes, the particles falling into the rivers, carrying highly toxic material.

4. a third part of the sun smitten, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of stars - does not give off its heat or light. Is that because of a nuclear winter, maybe, or is it not man-made at all, but a supernatural judgment from God. I don't know.

But to be sure those trumpet events are not all man made. And the fifth trumpet, the first woe, the opening of the bottomless pit, is definitely not man made. Neither is the 7th trumpet, third woe - Satan cast down to earth, by Michael and his angels, woe to the inhabiters of the earth and sea.

 

[Jamdoc]

It does not say midpoint in Daniel 9, but in the midst (in the kjv), i.e. middle part of the week. It is not giving the exact day of day 1260 midpoint in Daniel 9:27.

I do understand what it means in context. It does not say only man-caused events. Here is the context...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

He is not talking about unbelievers in this context. He's talking about the persecuted, not the persecutors. He does not come back to spare the persecutors He comes back to judge them. He comes back to deliver the persecuted, His elect. The day of the Lord comes as DESTRUCTION from the Almighty.

Jude 1

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

He's not cutting short anything to spare the ungodly, His plans are to destroy them.
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Matthew-24-22/

Please, review the trumpets in Revelation 8-9 and vials in Revelation 16. Those are integral to the Great Tribulation.

But they're not, they are AFTER the great tribulation. You are taking a leap of logic from one verse and assuming Jesus meant the trumpets and vials are what is meant by great tribulation because you think Jesus is returning to Earth to spare unbelievers who torture and murder those who believe in Him. Let's put it simply. Pretrib have a warped view. They believe that God will not let the church undergo persecution by men, but will pour out His wrath on the "Tribulation Saints" until all of them are dead, and then Jesus will come back to spare the people who murdered the "Tribulation saints". The disdain for the fabricated 2nd class citizens of heaven they have created is rather disturbing, and it's for a selfish reason, so that THEY won't be subject to any suffering. What a first world, cushy lifestyle world view.

They all see themselves as the Church of Philadelphia, never a Laodicean.
Never of Sardis
Never of Pergamos
and of course they never see themselves as Smyrna, oh no, that would include suffering for Christ. God forbid we follow a crucified savior's example.

I get it, I hate suffering too, I'm a cripple, but if I'm going to suffer for anything, at least let it be something that matters.

The Great Tribulation includes the wrath of God, but not soley the wrath of God. Satan will be cast down to earth during the Great Tribulation having great wrath, woe to the inhabiters of the earth, Revelation 12:12.

The Great Tribulation will also the time of Jacob's (Israel's) trouble, and the center point of that trouble will be in Jerusalem, Judea, where when the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshiped - anyone refusing to do so will be killed.

In the mountains, outside of Jerusalem, them who flee will be protected by God from the beast's and his military.



The seventh seal is Revelation 8, which the 7 trumpets are sounded, when the 7th seal was removed.

The 7 trumpets....

1. hail, fire, mixed with blood - cast upon the earth, a third of the trees burnt up, all of the green grass. Mixed with blood, could be the effects of a nuclear war, I don't know. But all of the green grass burned up - would indicate judgement from God.

2. a great mountain burning with fire cast into the sea - is not something man-made. Sounds like a large asteroid striking the earth. Again a judgment coming from God. A third part of the sea becomes as blood - indicating a third of life in the sea will die. And also that a third part of the ships destroyed (verse 10) indicates a large asteroid - hitting somewhere in the Pacific.

3. a great star falling from heaven burning like a lamp - that is not man-made for sure. A third of the water on the earth become poisoned because of it. Sounds like another burning asteroid streaking across the continents as it enters the atmosphere. Breaking up into fragments as it goes, the particles falling into the rivers, carrying highly toxic material.

4. a third part of the sun smitten, and a third part of the moon, and a third part of stars - does not give off its heat or light. Is that because of a nuclear winter, maybe, or is it not man-made at all, but a supernatural judgment from God. I don't know.

But to be sure those trumpet events are not all man made. And the fifth trumpet, the first woe, the opening of the bottomless pit, is definitely not man made. Neither is the 7th trumpet, third woe - Satan cast down to earth, by Michael and his angels, woe to the inhabiters of the earth and sea.

None of that is great tribulation, all of that is the wrath of God. only what takes place before the 6th seal can by Jesus' own definition, tribulation.
Or in the parallel narrative, what takes place before Revelation 14:14. So the mark of the beast/war against the saints.

 

[Andrewn]

I could not vote. I am partial Preterist and Amillennial.

I would put this under "Other Eschatology".

Non-pret Amils also place those verses in the future.

I have an Amillennial view of Revelation

Voted "Other". I'm an Amillennialist with Idealist and Partial-Preterist views.

Amillennialists generally uphold idealist, partial preterist, and historicist views in various combinations. The total for those who uphold these four views combined, so far, is 41.9% although many have probable voted "other eschatology" as advised (20.9% voted other) and some of those who voted for the four views could be post-Millennialists.

The total for those who uphold futurist / pre-Millennial views is only 37.4%.

 

[Douggg]

But they're not, they are AFTER the great tribulation. You are taking a leap of logic from one verse and assuming Jesus meant the trumpets and vials are what is meant by great tribulation because you think Jesus is returning to Earth to spare unbelievers who torture and murder those who believe in Him

No, I never said any such a thing. Jesus when He returns, He will execute judgement on evil men of the world who have persecuted and murdered the great tribulation saints.

Let's put it simply. Pretrib have a warped view. They believe that God will not let the church undergo persecution by men, but will pour out His wrath on the "Tribulation Saints" until all of them are dead, and then Jesus will come back to spare the people who murdered the "Tribulation saints".

No, Pretrib definitely does not have that view.

They all see themselves as the Church of Philadelphia, never a Laodicean.
Never of Sardis
Never of Pergamos
and of course they never see themselves as Smyrna, oh no, that would include suffering for Christ. God forbid we follow a crucified savior's example.

It is the church of Philadelphia that has the verses...

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

None of that is great tribulation, all of that is the wrath of God. only what takes place before the 6th seal can by Jesus' own definition, tribulation.

No, the 7th vial of God's wrath will certainly be part of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Amillennialists generally uphold idealist, partial preterist, and historicist views in various combinations.

I used to call myself 'New-style Historicist' because the old Historicists got hijacked by the Adventist movement. Now I just go by the handle, 'Amillennial.' In either case I have to part company with Part Pret friends because there is clearly some prophecy leading up to the second coming.