What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[Andrewn]

Pre wrath can line up with how God dealt with Noah, and Lot (the 2 Examples Jesus gave in fact...) left to endure persecution and mocking and mistreatment by men, but pulled to safety just before the wrath of God to deal with the wicked.

and if you use the example of Exodus and the plagues of Egypt, post trib (or really I consider post wrath since pre wrath is also post trib it just designates a difference between trib and the wrath of God) can fit because God was able to target the Egyptians with the plagues without targeting the Israelites.

Pre-wrath is not significantly different from mid-trib. All these are crazy ideas. God is able to preserve his people in the world rather than taking them out of the world, which He never did before. But, of course, we Americans deserve special treatment .

 

[keras]

Not so fast.

At the Second Coming every mountain and every continent will be moved out of their places. All the works of man will be dissolved. The earth will not go on the same. It will be as destroyed as the days of Noah and the Flood. This time not by water, but fire.

All the stars will come to earth, as they are all the angels. No more heaven as we know it either.

Totally incorrect.
The tectonic plate movement will happen at the Sixth Seal.
The earth will continue on as it always has done. I do see a 360 day year, tho.
Stars are not angels and when did you know all about heaven?

So:

1) Who will be on earth during the Millennium?
2) What will be accomplished during the Millennium?
3) What conditions will then prevail?

1/ Mortal humans, but only people who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and King.
2/ A thousand years of humans living as God always wanted them to be and Jesus will have His reward as ruler of the world.
3/ Perfect conditions, prosperity and safety; no disease and much longer lives. Isaiah 65:18-21

 

[2PhiloVoid]

That's interesting, you put 2 books under partial preterism, which is correct, but more specifically R.C. Sproul is amill and Gary DeMar is Postmill.

Yes. That's where I placed them on my list, but I realize there is some overlap with other specific views.

A book I want to consider reading is Revelation: Four Views, A Parallel Commentary by Steve Gregg. From some video or audio I heard with Gary Demar he recommended that book.

The Steve Gregg book is a good, general comparison of some of the prevailing perspectives.

That's right, I forgot the name of that view, it's called pan-mill.

Right. So, in only a very colloquial level of meaning am I a "pan-mill," meaning that I believe and have faith that the Lord will wrap up everything as He sees fit. This implies that how it all actually works out and where exactly we're at on some historical schedule (or even within some kind of amorphous typological age, whether of historicist or a-mill variety) might not manifest as anyone else sees fit.

 

[Andrewn]

1/ Mortal humans, but only people who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and King.
2/ A thousand years of humans living as God always wanted them to be and Jesus will have His reward as ruler of the world.
3/ Perfect conditions, prosperity and safety; no disease and much longer lives. Isaiah 65:18-21

Will the saved get resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium? After living this wonderful life the descendants of the Christian mortals will rebel and follow Satan against Jesus?

 

[didactics]

Will the saved get resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium? After living this wonderful life the descendants of the Christian mortals will rebel and follow Satan against Jesus?

Exactly, this is the very thing that made me disbelieve the premill view. Some say there will be a mix of believers and unbelievers. Some may have the privilege of living the entirety of the millennium, that is, those who are taken part in the rapture are given their glorified bodies sooner. Though, I've heard once a postmill preacher say that what premills and postmills share in common is of more significance than what amills share with postmills. Namely, they both see that the millennium is a kingdom that's physical and tangible whether that means it's recognized in the physical reign of Christ on earth, or as someone like Doug Wilson envisions a mere christendom a christianizing of the nations whether all believe or not.

 

[Timtofly]

Totally incorrect.
The tectonic plate movement will happen at the Sixth Seal.
The earth will continue on as it always has done. I do see a 360 day year, tho.
Stars are not angels and when did you know all about heaven?

1/ Mortal humans, but only people who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour and King.
2/ A thousand years of humans living as God always wanted them to be and Jesus will have His reward as ruler of the world.
3/ Perfect conditions, prosperity and safety; no disease and much longer lives. Isaiah 65:18-21

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

 

[keras]

The 6th Seal is the Second Coming.

That idea is a gross violation of the Book of Revelation. Jesus does not Return before all His enemies are made His footstool.
That is: killed and the final slaughter will be at Armageddon, which is the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:16

 

[Jamdoc]

Pre-wrath is not significantly different from mid-trib. All these are crazy ideas. God is able to preserve his people in the world rather than taking them out of the world, which He never did before. But, of course, we Americans deserve special treatment .

well it is and it isn't. it's similar in that it's in the "middle" of "the tribulation" when you use the full 70th week as "the 7 year tribulation" but if you actually have the great trib start at the mid point.. it doesn't really fit mid trib, which would actually be a form of pre-trib if you use the timing Jesus gave for the beginning of Great Tribulation, also I find mid bizarre because they put it at a knowable date, the exact midpoint of the 70th week.

Pre wrath puts it somewhere past the midpoint but before the end of the 70th week so that no one can know the day or hour, and making it fit when great tribulation starts (after the midpoint) and fit with "immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Pre wrath is at its core.. an attempt to reconcile seemingly contradicting statements, and utilize examples that Jesus gave (such as Noah and Lot)

If Jesus gave the examples of the Israelites in Egypt during the 10 plagues, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, post trib might seem more likely. But Days of Lot, Days of Noah, they were taken to safety just before the wrath of God they didn't stay in Sodom while fire and brimstone rained all around them but left them unscathed.. they were taken out.

 

[didactics]

well it is and it isn't. it's similar in that it's in the "middle" of "the tribulation" when you use the full 70th week as "the 7 year tribulation" but if you actually have the great trib start at the mid point.. it doesn't really fit mid trib, which would actually be a form of pre-trib if you use the timing Jesus gave for the beginning of Great Tribulation, also I find mid bizarre because they put it at a knowable date, the exact midpoint of the 70th week.

Pre wrath puts it somewhere past the midpoint but before the end of the 70th week so that no one can know the day or hour, and making it fit when great tribulation starts (after the midpoint) and fit with "immediately after the tribulation of those days"

Pre wrath is at its core.. an attempt to reconcile seemingly contradicting statements, and utilize examples that Jesus gave (such as Noah and Lot)

If Jesus gave the examples of the Israelites in Egypt during the 10 plagues, or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, post trib might seem more likely. But Days of Lot, Days of Noah, they were taken to safety just before the wrath of God they didn't stay in Sodom while fire and brimstone rained all around them but left them unscathed.. they were taken out.

Now I’ve only heard of the pre-wrath view recently, but what I get is that it’s closer to the midtrib view than it is to posttrib. Pre-wrath delineates between the first six seal judgments and the trumpet and bowl judgments. One flaw with this theory is that Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Rev 5:5, 6:1).

 

[Timtofly]

That idea is a gross violation of the Book of Revelation. Jesus does not Return before all His enemies are made His footstool.
That is: killed and the final slaughter will be at Armageddon, which is the Seventh Bowl, Revelation 16:16

Since John described the 6th Seal as the Second Coming from the Olivet Discourse, take it up with John.

Don't you think that the whole plain surrounding Jerusalem lifted up in Zechariah 14 a tectonic event?

The first estate of the angels is the firmament. They are the stars. At the Second Coming they all come to earth. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The angels are involved in the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest. That does not contradict Revelation at all.

 

[didactics]

Since John described the 6th Seal as the Second Coming from the Olivet Discourse, take it up with John.

Don't you think that the whole plain surrounding Jerusalem lifted up in Zechariah 14 a tectonic event?

The first estate of the angels is the firmament. They are the stars. At the Second Coming they all come to earth. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. The angels are involved in the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest. That does not contradict Revelation at all.

I don't know where you get this idea that angels were initially stars. There are many angels that God created and perhaps they are too numerous for us to count, just like the stars, but they were never stars. I'm a 7th day creationist or a young earth creationist (YEC) as they call it, and I believe the angels were likely created on day one and they had the privilege of overseeing the creation unfold. That was something I heard from AiG anyway. All that is beside the point. What I'm mostly curious about is what gives you the impression that the 6th seal describes the second coming? What verse reveals this understanding? What is the cross reference from what we find in Revelation to what we find in Matthew and how do you tie this together and what is your interpretation?

 

[Douggg]

Since John described the 6th Seal as the Second Coming from the Olivet Discourse, take it up with John.

A person could say the 6th seal event is at the time of the Second Coming, but not the exact same day.

Matthew 24:29 (the 6th seal event initiates the reaction by the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon) - then Matthew 24:30 (Jesus's coming in the clouds of heaven on the day of His Second Coming), 45 days later. (1290 days to the 1335th day) .

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6th seal appearance of the Son of Man in heaven, sickle in hand (from Revelation 14:14).

Then, the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon, with the intent of making war on Jesus, knowing He is coming to execute judgement on them.

As part of their strategy, they devise a plan - they take half of Jerusalem as hostage. Zechariah 14:2

Then Jesus descends to earth, coming in the clouds of heaven, to the Mt of Olives, directly across from the temple mount. The earth quakes as He stands upon it, splitting it in half. The Jewish hostages scurry through the created valley to safety.

And as everyone watches, the abomination of desolation statue image suddenly bursts into flames and turns into ashes, by the brightness of His Coming. And Satan, who will have been incarnating the come-to-life (a deceptive miracle by the false prophet) statue image is exposed for everyone there to see him. (Ezekiel 28:16-19). The beast person and the false prophet, now in a panic, shield their faces from the face of the Lamb.

A great portal then opens, and the lake of fire appears, and then the beast and the false prophet standing on the temple mount are then cast alive, sucked into vortex of the lake of fire...tormented forever.

Then the kings of the earth and their armies, packed into Israel, around Jerusalem, and backed up beyond the Kidron valley, dumbfounded by what they have witnessed, are destroyed by Jesus speaking it, their flesh disintegrating on their bodies, their tongues consumed in their mouths, while standing on their feet, all fall dead to the ground. Their blood that day will run the depth of a horse's bridle, and the length of Israel.

Then a lone angel descends from heaven to the temple mount with a great chain and binds Satan, his plans all come to naught, his kingdom destroyed, to be a terror no more, cut down to nothing by the Lord God Almighty. Another great portal opens, and Satan, bound and chained, is cast into the bottomless pit, before it and the lake of fire portal are closed.

The birds circling in great flocks that day in the land of Israel and the wild beasts begin their feast on all the dead remains of the king's of the earth's armies....as the scene goes silent. The Great Day of Battle of God Almighty - over.

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Get ready. For today is the day of Salvation.

 

[Jamdoc]

Now I’ve only heard of the pre-wrath view recently, but what I get is that it’s closer to the midtrib view than it is to posttrib. Pre-wrath delineates between the first six seal judgments and the trumpet and bowl judgments. One flaw with this theory is that Scripture shows that it is the Lamb who opens the seals (Rev 5:5, 6:1).

The lamb opens the seals but it is men that actually do the things.
Everything that happens is a either God caused, or God allowed, the trumpet and bowls are God caused, men can't do those. But the seals are God allowed, but man caused. Think of the seals as something that God is restraining when the seal is loosed, God is no longer restraining, so men do what their wickedness has always wanted to do but has been prevented from doing.

It is at the 6th seal, that they say the wrath of God is come, as in it's arrived, it's about to start.
Not that it has been happening already. Think about the souls in the 5th seal, they ask how long will God not judge the Earth, if the first 5 seals were a part of the wrath of God... He'd have already been judging, but instead of saying "It's already being done" they're told "rest a little season" you know "just wait awhile longer"

I think the main difference between pre wrath and any of the "-trib" views is the understanding of what the word "tribulation" means.
pretrib, post-trib, mid trib, all consider 'the tribulation" to be a 7 year period, pretrib will say it's a 7 year period of God's wrath, post trib will say it's a 7 year period of tribulation and God's wrath is only Armageddon (ignoring what Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 15:7 say), I'm honestly unsure of how mid trib characterizes whether tribulation is God's wrath or not.

Pre-wrath will see the first 5 seals (and the mark of the beast, seeing Revelation divided into 2 halves, chapters 4-11 and 12-22) as not the wrath of God, but tribulation caused by men. If you look through your bible and the context of the word tribulation, it's always related to persecution or violence caused by men. They will also generally not consider it "great tribulation" until after the midpoint, because that's when Jesus says great tribulation starts in Matthew 24, not before the midpoint but after.

So to be more accurate "pre-trib" is more pre 70th week, "mid trib" is still a form of pre-trib but mid 70th week (because they would be raptured before the great tribulation began), pre wrath is more formally known as post trib, pre wrath (after tribulation by men, but before the wrath of God), and "post trib" more accurately known as post-wrath.
It does to some degree boil down to what the definition of "tribulation" is.
because Jesus frames great tribulation with after the midpoint, but before the signs that match the sixth seal, I view "tribulation" to specifically be the war against the saints, which is characterized by the 5th seal, and the Mark of the Beast. (parallels)
Because Revelation 7:14 has the saints in heaven holding objects (like people with bodies do), described as having come out of great tribulation, I see it as consistent with Matthew 24:29. Those signs happened, they came out of great tribulation, therefore.. great tribulation is from that vantage point, a past event, before the trumpets and bowls.

Revelation 14 has kind of the same thing different details, mark of the beast is in effect, then Jesus is in the clouds, then there are saints in heaven before the vials filed with the wrath of God come out.

So it's a consistent pattern of tribulation -> Jesus in the clouds -> saints in heaven -> wrath of God on Earth

 

[didactics]

The lamb opens the seals but it is men that actually do the things.
Everything that happens is a either God caused, or God allowed, the trumpet and bowls are God caused, men can't do those. But the seals are God allowed, but man caused. Think of the seals as something that God is restraining when the seal is loosed, God is no longer restraining, so men do what their wickedness has always wanted to do but has been prevented from doing.

It is at the 6th seal, that they say the wrath of God is come, as in it's arrived, it's about to start.
Not that it has been happening already. Think about the souls in the 5th seal, they ask how long will God not judge the Earth, if the first 5 seals were a part of the wrath of God... He'd have already been judging, but instead of saying "It's already being done" they're told "rest a little season" you know "just wait awhile longer"

I think the main difference between pre wrath and any of the "-trib" views is the understanding of what the word "tribulation" means.
pretrib, post-trib, mid trib, all consider 'the tribulation" to be a 7 year period, pretrib will say it's a 7 year period of God's wrath, post trib will say it's a 7 year period of tribulation and God's wrath is only Armageddon (ignoring what Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 15:7 say), I'm honestly unsure of how mid trib characterizes whether tribulation is God's wrath or not.

Pre-wrath will see the first 5 seals (and the mark of the beast, seeing Revelation divided into 2 halves, chapters 4-11 and 12-22) as not the wrath of God, but tribulation caused by men. If you look through your bible and the context of the word tribulation, it's always related to persecution or violence caused by men. They will also generally not consider it "great tribulation" until after the midpoint, because that's when Jesus says great tribulation starts in Matthew 24, not before the midpoint but after.

So to be more accurate "pre-trib" is more pre 70th week, "mid trib" is still a form of pre-trib but mid 70th week (because they would be raptured before the great tribulation began), pre wrath is more formally known as post trib, pre wrath (after tribulation by men, but before the wrath of God), and "post trib" more accurately known as post-wrath.
It does to some degree boil down to what the definition of "tribulation" is.
because Jesus frames great tribulation with after the midpoint, but before the signs that match the sixth seal, I view "tribulation" to specifically be the war against the saints, which is characterized by the 5th seal, and the Mark of the Beast. (parallels)
Because Revelation 7:14 has the saints in heaven holding objects (like people with bodies do), described as having come out of great tribulation, I see it as consistent with Matthew 24:29. Those signs happened, they came out of great tribulation, therefore.. great tribulation is from that vantage point, a past event, before the trumpets and bowls.

Revelation 14 has kind of the same thing different details, mark of the beast is in effect, then Jesus is in the clouds, then there are saints in heaven before the vials filed with the wrath of God come out.

So it's a consistent pattern of tribulation -> Jesus in the clouds -> saints in heaven -> wrath of God on Earth

There's just one problem. God doesn't merely allow the seal judgments to happen, he ordains it. Just like the example of the 70 years of exile because of the Babylonian invasion, God didn't merely allow it, he wanted it to happen for his own purposes even though the Babylonians were unaware that they were bringing about God's purposes. The Babylonians were arrogant so they didn't have a mind to carry out God's plans, so God would later judge them as a nation. You see, it makes no difference to distinguish between God's wrath and satan's wrath, at least for the purposes for this discussion.
And about this idea that pretrib happens before the 70th week, I'm not sure that detail matters too much, as it's assumed that the rapture happens soon before the evens unfold or initiates the tribulation. Pre-wrath is not like posttrib at all because the rapture does not bring about a waiting period for those being raptured. The concept is just that they are brought up so they now descend and begin new things. All the other rapture scenarios has a sort of waiting period before they descend.

 

[Jamdoc]

There's just one problem. God doesn't merely allow the seal judgments to happen, he ordains it. Just like the example of the 70 years of exile because of the Babylonian invasion, God didn't merely allow it, he wanted it to happen for his own purposes even though the Babylonians were unaware that they were bringing about God's purposes. The Babylonians were arrogant so they didn't have a mind to carry out God's plans, so God would later judge them as a nation. You see, it makes no difference to distinguish between God's wrath and satan's wrath, at least for the purposes for this discussion.
And about this idea that pretrib happens before the 70th week, I'm not sure that detail matters too much, as it's assumed that the rapture happens soon before the evens unfold or initiates the tribulation. Pre-wrath is not like posttrib at all because the rapture does not bring about a waiting period for those being raptured. The concept is just that they are brought up so they now descend and begin new things. All the other rapture scenarios has a sort of waiting period before they descend.

and yet, the martyrs of the 5th seal, ask how long until God judges the world.
and it is in Revelation 14 that the hour of judgement happens (which is parallel to the 6th seal)
so prior to that, it's not considered that God has judged the world.
He's ordained things happen, but it is not directly His wrath.

as for the go up in the air then come right back down "rapture" of post wrath, position, doesn't fit with the heavenly scenes in Revelation 7, 15, or 19.
7 and 15 present people doing things like holding objects in their hands. That's reference to bodies, where Revelation 6:9-11, the 5th seal, it's just souls, and 19 presents people in heaven, after Babylon is judged, but before Armageddon.
15 presents people in heaven, after the mark of the beast, but before the vials of the wrath of God.

so in neither case can you claim "flash forward"

 

[Andrewn]

and yet, the martyrs of the 5th seal, ask how long until God judges the world.
and it is in Revelation 14 that the hour of judgement happens (which is parallel to the 6th seal)
so prior to that, it's not considered that God has judged the world.
He's ordained things happen, but it is not directly His wrath.

Why do you consider the wrath to be starting in Rev 14 when it actually starts with the seven trumpets in Rev 8?

 

[keras]

Why do you consider the wrath to be starting in Rev 14 when it actually starts with the seven trumpets in Rev 8?

The Sixth Seal is plainly described as the wrath of God and the Lamb, Revelation 6:16-17
It will be the next Prophesied event, the one which will change the world and commence all the things we are told will happen before Jesus Returns.
Thinking that Jesus will destroy the world that He comes to rule over, is wakadoodle.

 

[Douggg]

The Sixth Seal is plainly described as the wrath of God and the Lamb, Revelation 6:16-17
It will be the next Prophesied event, the one which will change the world and commence all the things we are told will happen before Jesus Returns.
Thinking that Jesus will destroy the world that He comes to rule over, is wakadoodle.

keras, why do you see the 6th seal it's own segment of activity - but not the other five seals, which you merge all of those together, making them indistinguishable over the past 2000 years ?

 

[Jamdoc]

Why do you consider the wrath to be starting in Rev 14 when it actually starts with the seven trumpets in Rev 8?

Because Revelation is 2 parallel narratives going through the same time period with different details.
Chapters 4-11, and chapters 12-22
The 144k twice, in chapters 7 and 14
The sign associated with Jesus coming on the clouds in Revelation 6:12-17, and Jesus on the clouds in Revelation 14:14-20
Saints in heaven after persecution (5th trumpet and mark of the beast) but before the wrath of the lamb/wrath of God (trumpets and bowls) in Revelation 7 and Revelation 15
The finality of the 7th trumpet, is echoed in the finality of the 7th vial and Armageddon.

Key verse? Revelation 10:7, and then the fact that Revelation 12 starts over from the birth of Jesus, not going in Chronological order.

If you go Chronological order from Revelation 4-22,, what you have is, Revelation 11:15 .. and then... Jesus' first act as King of the World is.... giving it back to Satan so Satan can give it to the beast in Revelation 13:2?

 

[didactics]

and yet, the martyrs of the 5th seal, ask how long until God judges the world.
and it is in Revelation 14 that the hour of judgement happens (which is parallel to the 6th seal)
so prior to that, it's not considered that God has judged the world.
He's ordained things happen, but it is not directly His wrath.

as for the go up in the air then come right back down "rapture" of post wrath, position, doesn't fit with the heavenly scenes in Revelation 7, 15, or 19.
7 and 15 present people doing things like holding objects in their hands. That's reference to bodies, where Revelation 6:9-11, the 5th seal, it's just souls, and 19 presents people in heaven, after Babylon is judged, but before Armageddon.
15 presents people in heaven, after the mark of the beast, but before the vials of the wrath of God.

so in neither case can you claim "flash forward"

From Matthew Henry’s Commentary it reads, “This is a language rather suited to the imperfect state of the saints in this world than to the perfection of their state in heaven” and this is in reference to how it wouldn’t be long for the number of their fellow-sufferers would be fulfilled (Rev. 6:11). In this sense I see it as referring to the intermediate heaven, not the rapture.

And why can’t I claim a flash forward? We’re both interpreting a book of prophecy are we not? But I think I get the point of your question. If it’s referring to martyrs in the intermediate heaven and not the rapture, how is it said that it won’t be much longer for judgment to be meted out? Well it could be that once the fifth seal is opened, then it won’t be much longer that their prayers are answered. Most preterists say these events already happened in 70 AD, but believe it or not there are some postmills that say there will be a future Armageddon, a double meaning if you will.

Lastly, was it not directly God’s punishment on Israel when the Babylonians carried them away captive? God doesn’t merely allow it to happen, he wants it to happen to bring about his purposes.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
— John 1:3

The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
— Proverbs 16:33

Can it ever be said that God’s wrath is not direct when he’s carrying out his purposes, and yes sometimes through evil men, exactly the way he intended? And do you really want to call posttrib, post-wrath? Does God’s wrath ever run out or is he not angry with the wicked every day?

God is a righteous judge,
And a God who has indignation every day.
— Psalm 7:11

According to Revelation 14:9-11, the condemned
…will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of his anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This you could say is technically the direct wrath of God, namely hell.