What is your Eschatological viewpoint? [Poll]

[Timtofly]

I don't know where you get this idea that angels were initially stars. There are many angels that God created and perhaps they are too numerous for us to count, just like the stars, but they were never stars. I'm a 7th day creationist or a young earth creationist (YEC) as they call it, and I believe the angels were likely created on day one and they had the privilege of overseeing the creation unfold. That was something I heard from AiG anyway. All that is beside the point. What I'm mostly curious about is what gives you the impression that the 6th seal describes the second coming? What verse reveals this understanding? What is the cross reference from what we find in Revelation to what we find in Matthew and how do you tie this together and what is your interpretation?

For one Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest, Matthew 13.

In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus declares the angels come to earth.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The estate of the angels is the firmament. Their job is to shine, they are the stars. They were created on the 4th Day.

 

[Jamdoc]

From Matthew Henry’s Commentary it reads, “This is a language rather suited to the imperfect state of the saints in this world than to the perfection of their state in heaven” and this is in reference to how it wouldn’t be long for the number of their fellow-sufferers would be fulfilled (Rev. 6:11). In this sense I see it as referring to the intermediate heaven, not the rapture.

I don't lean on commentaries, concordances, or any extrabiblical books. They're written by men, so.. flawed. I don't care one lick about how much of a "great theologian" any man esteems them to be. They're men.
Too often people lean on human teachers, and "great theologians" from hundreds of years ago who frankly, wrote their interpretations of scripture based on what they saw in the world at the time, some doctrines, like Amillennialism, were spun out because of the destruction of the temple and scattering of Israel and men in those days didn't think it was possible to literally fulfill any of the prophecies having to do with Israel, the temple, or the Jews.

So they allegorized them to try and make sense of them.
and frankly we ourselves speculate, and some people write books on eschatology.. based on what we see today.
It may be that Matthew Henry, and any and all of us, are wrong, and God will humble us all over our interpretation of scripture.
The Pharisees thought they knew scripture, they were the "great theologians" of their day and Jesus humbled them with His doctrines and understanding of scripture and shut their mouths, and He picked fishermen and tax collectors as His followers.... and they were all learned men in the scripture.. but even they got humbled after the resurrection where Jesus showed them in scripture what had happened to Him and why it had to happen.

Luke 24

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

So Jesus humbled them.

so long story short. Great Theologians are men, and they, and me, will be humbled in our limited understanding of scripture.

And why can’t I claim a flash forward?

Because if your position is that men do not go to heaven until after the second coming, and that the second coming is Revelation 19, then the saints in heaven are a bit of a non sequitur, because they are there explicitly before the vials of God's wrath come out, and there explicitly before the heavens open in Revelation 19.
so while maybe you can claim that they are souls and not bodied people (despite those in Revelation 15 holding objects in their hands)
what you can't claim is "oh this is after Revelation 19"
because it's explicitly not.

We’re both interpreting a book of prophecy are we not? But I think I get the point of your question. If it’s referring to martyrs in the intermediate heaven and not the rapture, how is it said that it won’t be much longer for judgment to be meted out? Well it could be that once the fifth seal is opened, then it won’t be much longer that their prayers are answered. Most preterists say these events already happened in 70 AD, but believe it or not there are some postmills that say there will be a future Armageddon, a double meaning if you will.

Lastly, was it not directly God’s punishment on Israel when the Babylonians carried them away captive? God doesn’t merely allow it to happen, he wants it to happen to bring about his purposes.

Because the martyrs ask how long until He judges the world, and they're told to wait.
Not told that He's already judging.

But here... it's pretty unambiguous
Revelation 6:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

These are unbelievers mind you, they won't take anything that can be naturally explained as an act of God.

and paralleled here

Revelation 14:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

and also the other angels, note the timing, they mention the mark of the beast, so this is after the mark of the beast, it's in the 2nd half of the 70th week, I say parallel to the 5th seal, but it is before the wrath of God which is described as happening after this:

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
— John 1:3

The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
— Proverbs 16:33

Can it ever be said that God’s wrath is not direct when he’s carrying out his purposes, and yes sometimes through evil men, exactly the way he intended? And do you really want to call posttrib, post-wrath? Does God’s wrath ever run out or is he not angry with the wicked every day?

God is a righteous judge,
And a God who has indignation every day.
— Psalm 7:11

According to Revelation 14:9-11, the condemned
…will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of his anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

This you could say is technically the direct wrath of God, namely hell.

I'm referring to the things specifically designated as the wrath of God in the 70th week.

after the 7th vial, "it is done."

 

[didactics]

For one Jesus and the angels are on earth for the final harvest, Matthew 13.

In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus declares the angels come to earth.

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

The estate of the angels is the firmament. Their job is to shine, they are the stars. They were created on the 4th Day.

Perhaps you are right as I have not studied Revelation well enough to know better. But one thing I know you can't be right on is saying the angels used to literally be stars. I have never heard that one before so that's a first. What about Rev 12:3? Is satan a literal red dragon? an enormous red dragon with seven heads? Or is Jesus Christ literally a Lamb having seven horns and seven eyes (Rev 5:6)?
This is language used in prophecy, symbolic language as the key to understanding dramatic core events.

 

[didactics]

I don't lean on commentaries, concordances, or any extrabiblical books. They're written by men, so.. flawed. I don't care one lick about how much of a "great theologian" any man esteems them to be. They're men.
Too often people lean on human teachers, and "great theologians" from hundreds of years ago who frankly, wrote their interpretations of scripture based on what they saw in the world at the time, some doctrines, like Amillennialism, were spun out because of the destruction of the temple and scattering of Israel and men in those days didn't think it was possible to literally fulfill any of the prophecies having to do with Israel, the temple, or the Jews.

So they allegorized them to try and make sense of them.
and frankly we ourselves speculate, and some people write books on eschatology.. based on what we see today.
It may be that Matthew Henry, and any and all of us, are wrong, and God will humble us all over our interpretation of scripture.
The Pharisees thought they knew scripture, they were the "great theologians" of their day and Jesus humbled them with His doctrines and understanding of scripture and shut their mouths, and He picked fishermen and tax collectors as His followers.... and they were all learned men in the scripture.. but even they got humbled after the resurrection where Jesus showed them in scripture what had happened to Him and why it had to happen.

Luke 24




So Jesus humbled them.

so long story short. Great Theologians are men, and they, and me, will be humbled in our limited understanding of scripture.


Because if your position is that men do not go to heaven until after the second coming, and that the second coming is Revelation 19, then the saints in heaven are a bit of a non sequitur, because they are there explicitly before the vials of God's wrath come out, and there explicitly before the heavens open in Revelation 19.
so while maybe you can claim that they are souls and not bodied people (despite those in Revelation 15 holding objects in their hands)
what you can't claim is "oh this is after Revelation 19"
because it's explicitly not.




Because the martyrs ask how long until He judges the world, and they're told to wait.
Not told that He's already judging.

But here... it's pretty unambiguous
Revelation 6:

These are unbelievers mind you, they won't take anything that can be naturally explained as an act of God.

and paralleled here

Revelation 14:

and also the other angels, note the timing, they mention the mark of the beast, so this is after the mark of the beast, it's in the 2nd half of the 70th week, I say parallel to the 5th seal, but it is before the wrath of God which is described as happening after this:






I'm referring to the things specifically designated as the wrath of God in the 70th week.

after the 7th vial, "it is done."

Now you're starting to sound like a panmill. Why should I trust that you have the right understanding about the millennium in that case? By your own admission I shouldn't expect you to know better that premill is the correct view. And great point, none of the apostles knew that Jesus must suffer for prophecy to be fulfilled. They were just ordinary men like fishers and tax collectors that God chose to be his close disciples. But remember what Jesus said about the Pharisees himself (see Mt 23:3). Surely there has got to be some good theologians out there, or else we wouldn't be commanded to be part of a local church (see Heb 13:17).

 

[keras]

Surely there has got to be some good theologians out there, or else we wouldn't be commanded to be part of a local church

Unfortunately none of the learned and wise can understand the end time Prophesies. Matthew 11:25-26

Isaiah 33 gives us a precis' of the end times events:

Isaiah 33:1-6 Woe betide you destroyer, yourself destroyed. After all your betrayals, you too will be betrayed. Isaiah 21:2

Lord, show us Your favour, our hope is in You. Save us when trouble comes. Psalms 74:19, Isaiah 26:16-21

At the crack of thunder, peoples flee – nations are scattered at Your roar. They are stripped of spoil, as by a swarm of locusts.
The worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 10:17-19, Isa. 18:18-19

The Lord is supreme, for He dwells on high. He will fill Zion with justice and righteousness. Your peoples strength is in Your unchanging stability, their deliverance is in wisdom and knowledge, their treasure is the respect of the Lord.


Isaiah 33:7-9 Listen, brave men cry aloud for help. Those seeking peace are thwarted.

The roads are deserted, no one moves, treaties are flouted. Ezekiel 36:3-4, Psalms 144:7-8

The land is dry. Lebanon, Sharon, Bashan and Gilead are stripped bare. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 36:34, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1


Isaiah 33:10-16 Now, I shall arise and exalt Myself, says the Lord. Psalms 74:22-23 You will conceive chaff and bring forth stubble, a wind like fire will devour you. Whole nations will be as heaps of white ash, like thorns set ablaze. Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7

You who are far away, hear what I have done. You who are near, acknowledge My power. Deuteronomy 30:1-10

The sinners in Zion are terrified, the godless are seized with trembling. They ask; How can we live with this consuming fire? Zephaniah 1:4-6, & 14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Those who live righteously and speak the truth, who do not take bribes, rejecting all evil – they will dwell securely with ample food and water. Psalms 85:12

Isaiah 33:17-24 Your eyes will see a King in his glory and view a Land that stretches into the distance. Numbers 24:15-19

You will call to mind what you once feared. Where are they now? Those barbarous people whose speech you could not understand. Psalms 58:10-11, Psalms 37:8-15

Look upon Zion, Jerusalem, city of sacred festivals. A secure abode, never again to be moved. Amos 9:13-15

There the Lord will be in His majesty, a peaceful place. A place of broad rivers, but no ships will sail there.

The Lord is our judge and lawgiver. He is our King who will save us. Zechariah 8:7-8

Your rigging hangs loose, the mast is not secure and your sails are not set. Luke 12:35-36. Then all will take a share in the spoils. Zechariah 9:17

No one living in Zion will get sick and the sins of the people will be pardoned. Psalms 126:1-3 Ref: REB some verses abridged


Verse 5 says ‘the Lord dwells on high’. So, before His Return, we see in verses 3-4 & 10-11, the nations as at present and in V14 Judah’s judgement. V15-16 say His faithful people will live prosperously in the Land, then V17-24 speaks of the Return of Jesus and His reign during the Millennium.

 

[didactics]

Unfortunately none of the learned and wise can understand the end time Prophesies. Matthew 11:25-26

Isaiah 33 gives us a precis' of the end times events:

Isaiah 33:1-6 Woe betide you destroyer, yourself destroyed. After all your betrayals, you too will be betrayed. Isaiah 21:2

Lord, show us Your favour, our hope is in You. Save us when trouble comes. Psalms 74:19, Isaiah 26:16-21

At the crack of thunder, peoples flee – nations are scattered at Your roar. They are stripped of spoil, as by a swarm of locusts.
The worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal. Isaiah 10:17-19, Isa. 18:18-19

The Lord is supreme, for He dwells on high. He will fill Zion with justice and righteousness. Your peoples strength is in Your unchanging stability, their deliverance is in wisdom and knowledge, their treasure is the respect of the Lord.


Isaiah 33:7-9 Listen, brave men cry aloud for help. Those seeking peace are thwarted.

The roads are deserted, no one moves, treaties are flouted. Ezekiel 36:3-4, Psalms 144:7-8

The land is dry. Lebanon, Sharon, Bashan and Gilead are stripped bare. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 36:34, Joel 1:19-20, Amos 1


Isaiah 33:10-16 Now, I shall arise and exalt Myself, says the Lord. Psalms 74:22-23 You will conceive chaff and bring forth stubble, a wind like fire will devour you. Whole nations will be as heaps of white ash, like thorns set ablaze. Hebrews 10:27, 2 Peter 3:7

You who are far away, hear what I have done. You who are near, acknowledge My power. Deuteronomy 30:1-10

The sinners in Zion are terrified, the godless are seized with trembling. They ask; How can we live with this consuming fire? Zephaniah 1:4-6, & 14-18, Isaiah 22:1-14

Those who live righteously and speak the truth, who do not take bribes, rejecting all evil – they will dwell securely with ample food and water. Psalms 85:12

Isaiah 33:17-24 Your eyes will see a King in his glory and view a Land that stretches into the distance. Numbers 24:15-19

You will call to mind what you once feared. Where are they now? Those barbarous people whose speech you could not understand. Psalms 58:10-11, Psalms 37:8-15

Look upon Zion, Jerusalem, city of sacred festivals. A secure abode, never again to be moved. Amos 9:13-15

There the Lord will be in His majesty, a peaceful place. A place of broad rivers, but no ships will sail there.

The Lord is our judge and lawgiver. He is our King who will save us. Zechariah 8:7-8

Your rigging hangs loose, the mast is not secure and your sails are not set. Luke 12:35-36. Then all will take a share in the spoils. Zechariah 9:17

No one living in Zion will get sick and the sins of the people will be pardoned. Psalms 126:1-3 Ref: REB some verses abridged


Verse 5 says ‘the Lord dwells on high’. So, before His Return, we see in verses 3-4 & 10-11, the nations as at present and in V14 Judah’s judgement. V15-16 say His faithful people will live prosperously in the Land, then V17-24 speaks of the Return of Jesus and His reign during the Millennium.

I don’t think that this passage (Mt 11:25-26; Lk 10:21-22) means this is universal and perhaps you don’t believe that either (see 1Co 26-31). Not many of you were wise…but God chose the foolish things to shame the wise The apostle Paul was a learned man. As I’ve heard once, the idea of being as little children can be understood as a child’s implicit trust in their parents; a childlike acceptance of his authority is in mind.

 

[keras]

I don’t think that this passage (Mt 11:25-26; Lk 10:21-22) means this is universal and perhaps you don’t believe that either

It is a very plain and unequivocal statement. Jesus goes on to say that only the unlearned and untaught people will understand. Daniel 12:4 says that many will try to gain knowledge of Prophecy, but few will understand and then only in the last days.

We can easily see the truth of this, by the proliferation of theories, ideas and plain guesswork of the so called experts.
My task is to present the Prophesies as Written. Are you able to comprehend what Isaiah 33 is telling us?

 

[didactics]

It is a very plain and unequivocal statement. Jesus goes on to say that only the unlearned and untaught people will understand. Daniel 12:4 says that many will try to gain knowledge of Prophecy, but few will understand and then only in the last days.

We can easily see the truth of this, by the proliferation of theories, ideas and plain guesswork of the so called experts.
My task is to present the Prophesies as Written. Are you able to comprehend what Isaiah 33 is telling us?

Well let’s see, how do I interpret Isaiah 33? I take it you want to know what I think of the last portion, from verse 17 onward. I read from The MacArthur Study Bible,


33:17 king in his beauty. The prophecy moves beyond Hezekiah in his sackcloth, oppressed by his enemy, to Messiah in His beauty.


Let me just pause for a moment to explain. I appreciate most of what I learn in his study Bible and it has been a great help. However, anytime I get a commentary from the old testament somehow tying into a millennial kingdom as envisioned by premills, I start to wonder how anyone sees that in the text. In reading the footnotes that relate to the millennium is really what got me to question the premill view. Here’s what he has next,


33:20 tent . . . not be moved. God’s presence is to permanently inhabit restored Jerusalem in the millennial kingdom.


I’m just telling you right now, I have no idea how he reads that into the text. Here is what the Reformation Study Bible has,


33:20 tent . . . cords. The exile has ended. Jerusalem enjoys stability and prosperity (54:2; cf. Rev. 21:1–3).


Now this makes much better sense to me. It references a passage in Revelation that talks about a new heaven and earth.

About your point of the passage in Danial and the learned men not knowing about prophecy, what about Caiaphas? Caiaphas unknowingly prophesied about God’s plan for Jesus’ death (John 11:50). Or what about the old man and woman who met the baby Jesus, Simeon and Anna? At the temple, they met with the parents and the baby. They recognized the Lord in him. "to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem" (Lk 2:38).

 

[keras]

Well let’s see, how do I interpret Isaiah 33? I take it you want to know what I think of the last portion, from verse 17 onward. I read from The MacArthur Study Bible,

Daniel 12:10, is very specific; ONLY in the last days, will anyone understand.
McArthurs Study Bible was published in 1997. That was 26 years ago. His expositions on end times Bible Prophecy, cannot be trusted. From what I did read of it, he is just guessing, like all the other 'experts' until now.

Isaiah 33:17-24, clearly describes the Millennium, when Jesus will reign over a peaceful and prosperous world. As Revelation 20:4-6 says.

 

[didactics]

Daniel 12:10, is very specific; ONLY in the last days, will anyone understand.
McArthurs Study Bible was published in 1997. That was 26 years ago. His expositions on end times Bible Prophecy, cannot be trusted. From what I did read of it, he is just guessing, like all the other 'experts' until now.

Isaiah 33:17-24, clearly describes the Millennium, when Jesus will reign over a peaceful and prosperous world. As Revelation 20:4-6 says.

I'm not sure I get the point that you're making about Daniel and the learned men not understanding prophecy. It sounds like the wicked in particular will not understand prophecy because they are more concerned about perusing their own sin. And what is characteristic of most wicked men? they trust in their own understanding and they think that their intellect is sufficient enough to find out the things that are happening in the world, but they scoff at such things as miracles recorded in the Bible. But sure I understand that no one will understand the day of Christ's return, believers and unbelievers alike. My point was to say that scripture is sufficient and I believe God intends for his people to know the order of events and by study they can gain understanding about the millennium in a general sense. IOW we have enough information in the Bible to form the right conclusions as to whether premill, postmill, or amill is the correct view, but it remains an essential matter to be correct that there will be a literal and physical second coming of Christ.

 

[keras]

I'm not sure I get the point that you're making about Daniel and the learned men not understanding prophecy. It sounds like the wicked in particular will not understand prophecy because they are more concerned about perusing their own sin. And what is characteristic of most wicked men? they trust in their own understanding and they think that their intellect is sufficient enough to find out the things that are happening in the world, but they scoff at such things as miracles recorded in the Bible. But sure I understand that no one will understand the day of Christ's return, believers and unbelievers alike. My point was to say that scripture is sufficient and I believe God intends for his people to know the order of events and by study they can gain understanding about the millennium in a general sense. IOW we have enough information in the Bible to form the right conclusions as to whether premill, postmill, or amill is the correct view, but it remains an essential matter to be correct that there will be a literal and physical second coming of Christ.

The point is that pretty much every Christian expositor of the Prophetic Word, has a different take on what will happen before Jesus Returns.
As Natthew 11:25 tells us: God has hidden the understanding of Bible Prophecy from the wise and learned. It was His good choice.

Therefore: we are, in fact; in the dark, 1 Thess 5:4, and are generally clueless about what will soon take place.
God wants it that way, so when disaster strikes and be assured it will; Ezekiel 33:33, then the great test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, will winnow out the people of little faith and the lukewarm Christians.

Note; in Ezekiel 33:32, how any genuine warnings are dismissed and ignored. Like my post #245.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 12:10, is very specific; ONLY in the last days, will anyone understand.
McArthurs Study Bible was published in 1997. That was 26 years ago. His expositions on end times Bible Prophecy, cannot be trusted. From what I did read of it, he is just guessing, like all the other 'experts' until now.

Isaiah 33:17-24, clearly describes the Millennium, when Jesus will reign over a peaceful and prosperous world. As Revelation 20:4-6 says.

While I disagree with John McArthur's view that the Antichrist will be a muslim - the separate issue of 1997, it is part of the parable of the fig tree generation - that generation is based on 1967 the budding of the fig tree, its leaves tender, and 1948 Israel a nation again in a single day. And thus part of the end times.

On a different issue, I would like to ask you why you see the 6th seal event as a specific segment - but not the other 5 seals ?

You have the other 5 seals spread indistinguishably as the past 2000 years from the time of the cross and resurrection to present.

I see all 6 seals as distinguishable segments of the 7 year 70th week.

 

[didactics]

The point is that pretty much every Christian expositor of the Prophetic Word, has a different take on what will happen before Jesus Returns.
As Natthew 11:25 tells us: God has hidden the understanding of Bible Prophecy from the wise and learned. It was His good choice.

Therefore: we are, in fact; in the dark, 1 Thess 5:4, and are generally clueless about what will soon take place.
God wants it that way, so when disaster strikes and be assured it will; Ezekiel 33:33, then the great test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, will winnow out the people of little faith and the lukewarm Christians.

Note; in Ezekiel 33:32, how any genuine warnings are dismissed and ignored. Like my post #245.

Right, supposing there is going to be a tribulation and Armageddon before Christ’s return, no one can expect to be prepared for the things about to happen based on reason alone. For the believer, growing in faith does involve the intellect, so that is not the issue. There must be faith even if it is small, because leaning on our own understanding will not deliver us (Pr 3:5). But we must have a basic understanding that engages our minds to have some reason in our faith toward God. This is because we should counter the notion of easy believism. Believing in God, but not repenting of sin will not prepare believers for any kind of tribulation.

 

[keras]

I see all 6 seals as distinguishable segments of the 7 year 70th week.

The 7 seals are all open before the 70th 'week'. Proved by how that final 7 years commences when the leader of the One World Govt, comes to the people in the holy Land and cuts a 7 year treaty of peace with them.
The first 3 1/2 years will be peaceful, the that leader, now revealed as the Anti-Christ; 'beast', will conquer the holy people. Daniel 7:25, Rev 13:5-8

Note: in Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8, it says that the Four Horsemen are actually operating way before Jesus came. I see that all Jesus did, was to show how those disasters afflict mankind and how they will increase as the age draws to a close. The labor pangs.
The 5th Seal was opened by Jesus and we have had all the horrible deaths of the Christian martyrs since then.

 

[Douggg]

Note: in Zechariah 1:8-11 & 6:1-8, it says that the Four Horsemen are actually operating way before Jesus came. I see that all Jesus did, was to show how those disasters afflict mankind and how they will increase as the age draws to a close. The labor pangs.
The 5th Seal was opened by Jesus and we have had all the horrible deaths of the Christian martyrs since then.

No, you are wrong. The Zechariah verses are not about the four horsemen of the apocalypse of Revelation 6. It is easy to prove from the text itself.

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Zechariah 6:1-8 are four chariots - each chariot pulled by a team of horses. They are not riders on horses. And not in the same order as Revelation 6.

2 In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses;

3 And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses.

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Zechariah 1:8-11 are first a man riding a red horse in the myrtle trees, backed by red horses, speckled (horses - implied), and white (horses -implied). Verse 12 actually indicates the period of those horsemen as leading up to the Babylonian captivity ( which was to last 70 years).

12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years?

 

[keras]

No, you are wrong. The Zechariah verses are not about the four horsemen of the apocalypse of Revelation 6. It is easy to prove from the text itself.

Those four horsemen, or chariots; are the same - they do the same things. The Prophets simply described their visions and being humans, they wrote what they saw differently.
Thinking there were and still are two sets of four types of worldwide disasters, is wrong and you make the further error of squishing them into the final 7 years.
Your 'chart' fails to explain how come we have had Christian martyrs since Stephen.

 

[Douggg]

Those four horsemen, or chariots; are the same - they do the same things.

No, they don't. In Revelation, the rider on the white horse is given a crown. Nothing about a crown in Zechariah.

And in Revelation, the rider on the white horse is before the rider on the red horse. Not so in Zechariah.

Thinking there were and still are two sets of four types of worldwide disasters, is wrong and you make the further error of squishing them into the final 7 years.

The trumpets and the bowls, which produce world wide great tribulation, are all within the 7 year 70th week.

Your 'chart' fails to explain how come we have had Christian martyrs since Stephen.

The martyrs in the 5th seal are the great tribulation martyrs. They seek Jesus, the Lamb, to avenge their deaths - on them who caused their deaths. Those evil persons will still be alive at Jesus's Second Coming. At the time of the 6th seal, the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, sickle in hand, to execute judgment on them.

Differently, Stephen and other martyrs of past centuries - them who caused their deaths are themselves already long dead centuries ago.

 

[keras]

No, they don't. In Revelation, the rider on the white horse is given a crown. Nothing about a crown in Zechariah.

And in Revelation, the rider on the white horse is before the rider on the red horse. Not so in Zechariah.

These are immaterial differences, ones that add more info to the fact of there being four main types of disasters experienced by mankind.

The trumpets and the bowls, which produce world wide great tribulation, are all within the 7 year 70th week.

The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls have nothing to do with the Four Horsemen.
And the GT happens only during the final 3 1/2 years, culminating in the 7 Bowl, Revelation 16:16, when Jesus Returns.

You are wrong again, in saying the Trumpets and Bowls cause worldwide disasters, Those punishments are directed against people with the mark of the beast.

The martyrs in the 5th seal are the great tribulation martyrs.

No they are not, Proved by the fact of the Sixth Seal being the next prophesied event, as is plainly Written in Revelation.
Saying the 5th Seal is the GT martyrs, means you shuffle it as well, into the time of Jesus' Return. Both quite wrong.

Also proved wrong by how the Christian martyrs are told to wait until their number is complete. BY the GT martyrs!

them who caused their deaths are themselves already long dead centuries ago.

All those who have caused, and will cause; the persecutions and deaths of the Christians, will be Judged at the GWT Judgment. Their fate is the Lake of Fire.
There is some punishment for the persecutors, during the Great Trib, Revelation 16:1-11. Specifically; verse 2 & 11.

Par for the course: you are 100% wrong and you promote errors.

 

[didactics]

These are immaterial differences, ones that add more info to the fact of there being four main types of disasters experienced by mankind.

The 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls have nothing to do with the Four Horsemen.
And the GT happens only during the final 3 1/2 years, culminating in the 7 Bowl, Revelation 16:16, when Jesus Returns.

You are wrong again, in saying the Trumpets and Bowls cause worldwide disasters, Those punishments are directed against people with the mark of the beast.

No they are not, Proved by the fact of the Sixth Seal being the next prophesied event, as is plainly Written in Revelation.
Saying the 5th Seal is the GT martyrs, means you shuffle it as well, into the time of Jesus' Return. Both quite wrong.

Also proved wrong by how the Christian martyrs are told to wait until their number is complete. BY the GT martyrs!

All those who have caused, and will cause; the persecutions and deaths of the Christians, will be Judged at the GWT Judgment. Their fate is the Lake of Fire.
There is some punishment for the persecutors, during the Great Trib, Revelation 16:1-11. Specifically; verse 2 & 11.

Par for the course: you are 100% wrong and you promote errors.

Here's what I would like to know and not to sound overly ecumenical. But why does it matter? In other words, what would it mean if the trumpet and bowl judgments does not happen after the seal judgments, in that order? Because here's the thing, I can understand why it's worth debating certain subjects even if it's not an issue of essential doctrine. For example, some may debate about charismatic vs cessationist and it is in my estimation a secondary matter. There is a lot at stake if some are being duped by the prosperity gospel and the weak and vulnerable are giving their money away (sowing a seed) to a ministry. Note, it is also true that some charismatics don't associate with the prosperity gospel, but a lot of them do. But one thing I think of in particular and wonder why it matters to have the correct interpretation is having to do with the passage in Genesis 6 and "the sons of God". I wonder why it matters so much to debate who is right about the sons of God, whether they are fallen angels that inhabit a body, or they are a royal bloodline. I personally have gone back and forth and thought maybe they are the line of Seth and godly men who shouldn't intermarry with the ungodly. But then I heard a pastor put forward that it matters what we think about this text and we should conclude that it is fallen angels. The reason he said it matters is because the interpretation is easy to see if we are not prone to think like pietists. And it has me thinking, perhaps all doctrine is important doctrine. On the surface sometimes it seems unnecessary to debate certain things. But, if one is confident of their interpretation on a particular matter, though it's not a salvific matter or even a secondary matter, debating it can still be edifying perhaps to the hearers.
Lastly, what is the alternative to what you are arguing for? If the trumpet and bowl judgments happen not after, what is implied? Is it suggested that the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments all happen during the same time, like one judgment being seen from different angles or facets?

 

[Douggg]

You are wrong again, in saying the Trumpets and Bowls cause worldwide disasters, Those punishments are directed against people with the mark of the beast.

I think you need to re-read the trumpets and vials. Their impact is definitely worldwide.