What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[John Mullally]

Don't use the word "Calvinism" if you want to discuss what Scripture presents.

Preach it

Although, I do find it easy to use the word Calvinism when discussing what Scripture does not present.

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[Clare73]

Preach it

Although, I do find it easy to use the word Calvinism when discussing what Scripture does not present.

Okay. . .

 

[Clare73]

I understand perfectly. The king drives a limo because he has purposes for it.

The purpose being for the well-being of his children.

 

[Clare73]

John 3:5-8 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” This is absolutely true! Its the application that has been stated wrong. In context, he goes to the application: 16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

vv. 3-4?

 

[zoidar]

The purpose being for the well-being of his children.

It's not like I think that answers it, but fine...

 

[John Mullally]

Arminianism has yet to explain how Grace is possessing of some modicum of human ability to submit to God apart from the work of God, that is, it has yet to explain how it is possible that some people "accept Christ" while others do not.

Jesus died for all men (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6) and God desires all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9). Jesus's disciples labor to bring people to the Savior (1 Timothy 4:10). It is the god of this world (not the Lord) who works against that purpose. Unfortunately, some men reject per John 3:18-19 because they love darkness.

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

2 Corinthians 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.​

The Arminian pretends a work of Grace, in which the work of man adds to the work of God for a greater or more complete effect than the work of God alone.

The work of grace is first Christ paying the ransom for all men (1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, even 2 Peter 2:1) and then the Holy Spirit working with the preaching of the Gospel. It is a shame that you derogatorily label cooperation with the Holy Spirit as a "work of man". Acts 7:51 says that men can resist the Holy Spirit - so cooperation is man's option. Sorry if you heard this from me many times: If it is just a work of God alone, then why does Peter promise remission of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit to those who repent in response to his Gospel message in Acts 2. Peter even invokes his audience to "save yourselves" - which I have been told is not a popular phrase among Calvinists.

 

[Clare73]

Whenever I hear the term regeneration, I think of Reformed. Its
their term for the "new birth".

It is the NT term (palingenesia) for the new birth: Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3, 1 Peter 1:23.
The spiritually dead are not saved, they must be spiritually raised to life first before can savingly come to Christ.

The rest of us see Salvation as including the new birth.
Apparently some Calvinists see Salvation as including regeneration.

You are using the term "salvation" in a very general way.

Regeneration is the new birth of the spirit, the communication of a new spiritual life.

Salvation is simply remission of sin where, by faith, our sin debt is paid, and our condemnation (Romans 5:18) is removed.
Salvation is the result of faith, which faith is the result of regeneration.

Justification is declaration by God, the Justifier (Romans 3:26), that we are "not guilty" of sin, God declares that we are righteous.

Righteousness is our righteousness of Jesus Christ credited/reckoned/imputed to us by faith
(Galatians 3:6-7; Romans 4:5, Romans 4:23-25; Romans 1:17; Romans 3:21-24; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21),
as it was credited/imputed/reckoned to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

 

[John Mullally]

Salvation is the result of faith, which faith is the result of regeneration.

I would be interested in where the NT says faith is the result of regeneration. I demonstrated in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit (i.e. regeneration) follows repentance. Repentance requires faith.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I would be interested in where the NT says faith is the result of regeneration. I demonstrated in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit (i.e. regeneration) follows repentance. Repentance requires faith.

Yet Abraham had faith in God, and this was considered righteousness.

Regeneration happened after Jesus.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Keeping in mind that warnings are one of the ways God preserves the regenerate, who heed the warnings, while the unregenerate do not.

I agree completely. It is surprising how God does what he does, often with the mundane, ordinary means, when we would prefer that he do the spectacular.

But notice how the Arminians want to accuse us of saying it is 'automatic', when we say no such thing! The reverse, self-important, humanocentric thinking, and the gall of it! to say that if the human does is nothing by which he gains a gift of God, it must be 'automatic', and if God does the work by which we gain something, he cannot use means to accomplish it, is self-condemning.

When we speak of Perseverance of the Saints, we do not claim, nor do we mean, that the Elect need not be obedient, nor do everything else that it takes to persevere, as though it will happen automatically. We only mean that God will indeed keep us, by whatever means he uses to do so, to include our wills and our deeds.

When I said the main difference between Arminianism and Reformed Theology was the Gospel of Grace, I was perhaps not entirely accurate, because the main difference is really that mindset behind that false Gospel, that necessarily must separate our activity from God's activity —a notion that is denied emphatically by both Scripture and Reason, not merely by the simple fact that God is the first cause of all fact, but particularly in the unity of the believer to God, that no good is done by us but by God in us.

I have been accused of teaching many things that I never have taught, including that the Elect can be lazy as they please, or that their whole life and pursuit of Christ is automatic, requiring no effort at all on the part of the believer. I have been careful to say outright, that even though salvific faith is entirely of grace, a gift, it involves the believer's heart and will, even to the extreme. I'm not the one who calls anyone a robot, but I've been accused of teaching it.

 

[John Mullally]

Yet Abraham had faith in God, and this was considered righteousness.

Regeneration happened after Jesus.

I agree with this. The book of Acts and the NT epistles were written to NT believers - that is where we should concentrate. Unfortunately, some give the same importance to that which was written to pre-NT believers.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

)

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would be interested in where the NT says faith is the result of regeneration. I demonstrated in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit (i.e. regeneration) follows repentance. Repentance requires faith.

Well, no, you didn't. Your failure was in the illogic that claims concurrence (or even sequence) implies causation. Your verse did not show that regeneration follows repentance, but rather simply that the one necessarily implies the other. It does not say which causes which, nor even, for that matter which one comes first. But it does imply that motivation is involved!

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I agree with this. The book of Acts and the NT epistles were written to NT believers - that is where we should concentrate. Unfortunately, some give the same importance to that which was written to pre-NT believers.

That's because the sales man preacher recognizes that most people in the audience are not saved, but would really really like to believe that they are.

When applied, the approach currently in circulation results in a larger audience and a stable income.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A warning in life is never a guarantee that anyone will heed the warning, but you think it's different with the Bible?

Her point is not that the warning is a guarantee, but that it, and the motivations it fosters, are part of God's means of keeping the elect. The guarantee is God's promise, his Covenant, and the Holy Spirit given to us. There is no implication of something automatic, but that God is totally committed to completing what he has set out to do. We can know, as surely as we can know anything, that God will do it, regardless of what we consider our efforts vs his.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm thinkin' he sees himself as much older than you. . .

He probably is, after all, he's 57, I think, while I'm only 66. He's been a believer apparently for a long time, while I've only been a believer longer than I can remember, which isn't so long. I can't even remember what I started out to say here.

 

[John Mullally]

Well, no, you didn't. Your failure was in the illogic that claims concurrence (or even sequence) implies causation. Your verse did not show that regeneration follows repentance, but rather simply that the one necessarily implies the other. It does not say which causes which, nor even, for that matter which one comes first. But it does imply that motivation is involved!

The verse in Ezekiel references the need to repent and turn multiple times. At the tail end of a sentence after repentance is mentioned does he refer to getting a new heart and spirit. What is Ezekiel stressing: Is it repent now to get a new heart and spirit or is it wait to get spuriously zapped with a new heart and new spirit so you can repent. Try to read the passage objectively - if you can.

 

[Clare73]

I would be interested in where the NT says faith is the result of regeneration.

Spiritually dead men don't believe, because they can't even see the things of God (John 3:3-8),
much less understand them and receive them (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8), for they are foolishness to them.

I demonstrated in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit (i.e. regeneration) follows repentance. Repentance requires faith.

But repentance, by definition, is a mighty change of mind and heart.

So receiving a new heart and spirit (regeneration) follows a mighty change of mind and heart (repentance).
Are you sure about that?

 

[AVB 2]

Ephesians 1:4 & 5 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will..."

The reason some people respond to the gospel and some do not is revealed in the above passage. Before the foundation of the world, God chose certain individuals that He predestined to save regardless of their how their sinful free will directs them. The natural inclination of the natural man’s heart is always toward sin and never toward righteousness. Our sinful free will will never ever direct us toward rightousness.

On the day that God predestined for those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to receive Christ they will respond because it was God's will that they respond. God is absolutely sovereign over absolutely everything including man's salvation. If God is not sovereign over all He is not sovereign at all. Nothing happens in this world that has not received God's stamp of approval. Everything that happens on earth will some day bring glory to God because God has predestined it that way. Everything He does He does perfectly and it will bring glory to Him.

These chosen Christians are the children of the promise, i.e. those that God loves (Romans 9:8b "Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children." Romans 9:9-12 "For God had promised, “I will return about this time next year, and Sarah will have a son. This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works. She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” In the words of the Scriptures, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”"

For my Arminian brothers who feel that God is unfair to choose some but not everyone, Esau, using his God given free will could seek for God and become one of God's children! Oh wait! There is that pesky Romans 3:11b "There is none that seeks after God." As Spurgeon said "Free will has lead many souls to Hell, but never one to heaven."