What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[Mark Quayle]

Calvinists have a not that different of a problem. Why God "accepts" Jimmy, but not Clark?

What I heard is it's because God chose Jimmy, but not Clark. It's just that it doesn't explain why it wasn't Clark He chose instead of Jimmy. Was Jimmy better than Clark? Chance?

No. That's not Calvinism. God does not 'accept' anybody in the sense you use it here, as though someone had attained something.

But I thought Calvinism was clear on the question you pose. He not only chose Jimmy, (and it was not a random choice) —he MADE Jimmy for the exact purpose of Jimmy's position as that particular member of the Bride of Christ that he is /will be. There are no replacements, there is no B team. God does not choose from a generic pool of possibles.

 

[Clare73]

That's because the sales man preacher recognizes that most people in the audience are not saved, but would really really like to believe that they are.

When applied, the approach currently in circulation results in a larger audience and a stable income.

The NT is the OT revealed, completed.

There is much benefit in understanding their relationship, starting with Leviticus.

 

[zoidar]

No. That's not Calvinism. God does not 'accept' anybody in the sense you use it here, as though someone had attained something.

But I thought Calvinism was clear on the question you pose. He not only chose Jimmy, (and it was not a random choice) —he MADE Jimmy for the exact purpose of Jimmy's position as that particular member of the Bride of Christ that he is /will be. There are no replacements, there is no B team. God does not choose from a generic pool of possibles.

Why did God make "Jimmy for the exact purpose of Jimmy's position as that particular member of the Bride of Christ that he is /will be." ?

Why didn't he make Clark for that purpose and position instead?

 

[Clare73]

He probably is, after all, he's 57, I think, while I'm only 66. He's been a believer apparently for a long time, while I've only been a believer longer than I can remember, which isn't so long. I can't even remember what I started out to say here.

Too funny!

Meet yersef comin' back?

I think you need rest!

 

[John Mullally]

Spiritually dead men don't believe, because they can't even see the things of God (John 3:3-8),
much less understand them and receive them (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8), for they are foolishness to him.

But repentance, by definition, is a mighty change of mind and heart.

So receiving a new heart and spirit (regeneration) follows a mighty change of mind and heart (repentance).
Are you sure about that?

With God all things are possible. Regeneration of the unsaved occurs when the unsaved hearing the Gospel cooperate with the Holy Spirit. Read Acts 2. No additional required step (i.e. regeneration before repentance) is described their or anywhere else in the NT.

 

[John Mullally]

Spiritually dead men don't believe, because they can't even see the things of God (John 3:3-8),
much less understand them and receive them (1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 8:7-8), for they are foolishness to them.

But repentance, by definition, is a mighty change of mind and heart.

So receiving a new heart and spirit (regeneration) follows a mighty change of mind and heart (repentance).
Are you sure about that?

Calvinist created Total Depravity in order to push their fatalism (which they term Monergism). Its based upon inductive reasoning and not accepted by almost all non-Calvinists.

I detailed in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit follows repentance. Don't waste time - critique my take on Ezekiel 18:30-32.

 

[Clare73]

Why did God make "Jimmy for the exact purpose of Jimmy's position as that particular member of the Bride of Christ that he is /will be." ?

Why didn't he make Clark for that position instead?

Deuteronomy 29:29.

Are we prying now. . .requiring that we know what he knows. . .trying to manage the sovereign God?

 

[zoidar]

He flipped a coin?

For the same reason the potter makes from the same lump of clay some vessels for noble use and some vessels for common use (human waste), instead of making all for noble use.

It serves his purpose.

Back again to the king and his limo...

It's not why God makes some vessels for common use and some for noble use. It is why pot A is made for noble use, but not pot B?

 

[AVB 2]

Calvinists have a not that different of a problem. Why God "accepts" Jimmy, but not Clark?

What I heard is it's because God chose Jimmy, but not Clark. It's just that it doesn't explain why it wasn't Clark He chose instead of Jimmy. Was Jimmy better than Clark? Chance?

God chose Jimmy and not Clark because He is God and God does what He wants to do. Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in heaven— he can do whatever he wants!" Romans 9:18-23 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."

As you can easily see we are not permitted to question God's sovereign choices. God will take some people from a lump of clay and make a beautiful pitcher to hold drinking water and the rest of that exact same lump he makes into a thunder mug. (Google that if you don't know what that is.) He is God. We are not. My suggestion is Do not question His authority to do what He wants to do with His creation. To me those who question God about His sovereign choices are treading on very thin ice.

 

[Clare73]

With God all things are possible.

And they start with sovereign regeneration by his sovereign Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

Regeneration of the unsaved occurs when the unsaved hearing the Gospel cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

When do spiritually dead men (Ephesians 2:1) spiritually cooperate?

Not according to Jesus in John 3:3-8.

And not according to Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

 

[zoidar]

God chose Jimmy and not Clark because He is God and God does what He wants to do. Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in heaven— he can do whatever he wants!" Romans 9:18-23 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will? But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this? Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction. and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory."

As you can easily see we are not permitted to question God's sovereign choices. God will take some people from a lump of clay and make a beautiful pitcher to hold drinking water and the rest of that exact same lump he makes into a thunder mug. (Google that if you don't know what that is.) He is God. We are not. My suggestion is Do not question His authority to do what He wants to do with His creation. To me those who question God about His sovereign choices are treading on very thin ice.

So we are not to ask "why"? You think it is dangerous?

 

[Clare73]

Calvinist created Total Depravity

Looks like a creation of Jesus' revelation (John 3:3-8) to Paul (Galatians 1:11-12) to me
(Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

I detailed in Post 1745 that receiving a new heart and spirit follows repentance. Don't waste time - critique my take on Ezekiel 18:30-32.

Already critiqued, in the following:

Well, no, you didn't. Your failure was in the illogic that claims concurrence (or even sequence) implies causation. Your verse did not show that regeneration follows repentance, but rather simply that the one necessarily implies the other. It does not say which causes which, nor even, for that matter which one comes first. But it does imply that motivation is involved!

How about you address John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, being true to their words, their context and the whole counsel of God.

 

[Clare73]

So we are not to ask "why"? You think it is dangerous?

No, I think you have your answer in Isaiah 55:8-9; Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 9:20-23.

However, it may be somewhat non-submissive, when God makes an end to teaching, you not wanting to make an end to learning.

 

[RickReads]

Just for the sake of curiosity, why "schoolboy"?

It`s a recognition of your scholastic achievements in Bible College. I am a mere hillbilly coveting your knowledge and insights.

 

[RickReads]

I'm thinkin' he sees himself as much older than you. . .

WOW! You must think I`m real dum.

 

[John Mullally]

And they start with sovereign regeneration by his sovereign Holy Spirit (John 3:3-8).

Those are your words! The passage does not say that regeneration happens before repentance.

When do spiritually dead men (Ephesians 2:1) spiritually cooperate?

Spiritually dead means separated from God. The working of the Holy Spirit with the preaching of the Gospel is sufficient - unless you limit God.

Not according to Jesus in John 3:3-8.

And not according to Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14.

Not according how? Make an actual argument.

 

[zoidar]

No, I think you have your answer in Isaiah 55:8-9; Deuteronomy 29:29; Romans 9:20-23.

It may be somewhat non-submissive, when God makes an end to teaching, you not wanting to make an end to learning.

Yes, that God does it for His purposes and we are not to ask why. To me that is a good argument for rejecting this view. If I'm not allowed to ask why, it shows me it doesn't hold water.

 

[RickReads]

There have been multitudes of defenders of Arminianism, or at least of Arminian-leaning points of view. You're not the worst by far. But Arminianism in the end is indefensible, scripturally. Every passage you use as a defense of Arminianism is equally (or more) useful as a defense of Calvinism, but you can't see it, because what you extrapolate [your version of] Calvinism to imply is what you think Calvinism is.

Well, I didn't know I was a Calvinist until I came to the internet in my late 30s and started learning about doctrines created after the first century. Everything I know about Calvinism is based on what internet Calvins have told me and Commentary available online. I don't think there are any Calvins at the church I am affiliated with.

Didn't know what Arminian was until about 2 years ago when one of the posters on this thread educated me about them.

Maybe if he had been a better teacher

 

[John Mullally]

Looks like a creation of Jesus' revelation (John 3:3-8) to Paul (Galatians 1:11-12) to me
(Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

Already done, in the following:

How about you address John 3:3-8; Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14, being true to their words, their context and the whole counsel of God.

The whole council of God - ha, ha, I am convinced if you knew that you would not be a Calvinist. Make an argument. I am not wasting my time giving commentary on a laundry list of scriptural passages - only to have portions of it picked apart by some hostile man pretending he speaks for the Sovereign God.

 

[Clare73]

Those are your words! The passage does not say that regeneration happens before repentance.
Spiritually dead means separated from God.

Not according to Jesus in John 3:3-8, where the dead must be born again.

The working of the Holy Spirit with the preaching of the Gospel is sufficient - unless you limit God.
Not according how? Make an actual argument.

My argument is the argument Jesus makes in John 3:3-8, which is as well as it can be made, where they cannot even see, they must be re-born.