What is wrong with Calvinism ?

[RickReads]

That view of Arminianism is perhaps more lucid, or at least, more useful, than mine was when operating from within it. Arminianism is a sort of half-breed between Reformed Theology and Pelagianism. My extended family would not accept being called Arminian, nor even Wesleyan, but would be happy with Methodist and other such labels. They are probably what could be called 4-pointers, strongly disagreeing with the Limited Atonement, yet admitting to some difficulty with the problem of 'efficiency' in the death of Christ. But the strength of the other 4 points is weakened, or perhaps even redefined, by the focus of Arminianism: The Arminian mindset is that God adds to our efforts, or, to be more kind, that we add to what God does —he does his part, we do ours, otherwise, God cannot accomplish his will. The Arminian mind is perhaps most easily demonstrated in the manner of monergism vs synergism, where to them, salvation only results from God's work and our willingness to be worked on combining for a greater effect than God's work alone. They do not easily see that even their willingness is itself too, the work of God.

When I, in theological discussions with my family, first told them that what I had come to believe was essentially Calvinism, the immediate objection was the question, "But if God is the one who decides your salvation and all that follows it, where is the motivation to obey?" completely neglecting what I can attest to concerning even them, too —that the love of Christ compels us, not only in that we are motivated by love for him to by force-of-will obey him, but that his love residing in us, in the person of the Spirit of God, drives us. We find ourselves possessed of a need to obey. We don't only hunger and thirst after righteousness, nor are we merely grateful; we must obey.

Their notion of Christian life, is to by some means (which I consider dangerously near to divination) to ascertain "God's will for your life". And then to, with his assistance, pursue that 'job', 'calling', 'goal', 'destiny', 'purpose' or whatever "with all your heart". And that is done, not to neglect, but to make use of all the Spiritual disciplines and principles given in Scripture for one's growth. And in that mindset, you see their construction: not of GOD, but of God plus us.

I agree with your family. They are not Armenian.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I agree with your family. They are not Armenian.

Well, I did call them Arminian-leaning.

 

[RickReads]

Well, I did call them Arminian-leaning.

Let's get you straightened out first.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The issue with regeneration is that the Spirit of Christ must circumcise your heart and come to live within you. That cannot occur until after you find out about Jesus and have your sins forgiven. Paul clearly spelled out an order of events that must occur in a sequence.

Paul also clearly spelled out the principle, that what you construct as prevenient grace, is actually the change of will wrought by the Spirit of God, i.e. regeneration. Until then, no halfway grace will do the job. I note, however, that what Paul shows as a cause-and-effect sequence, is not to say that we will be aware of a time-sequence. It can be sudden, or it can occur over many long years. Our wills are not the even the pivot point, but the Grace of God is. The work of God is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Let's get you straightened out first.

Lots of 'luck' with that! (snerk)

 

[RickReads]

Paul also clearly spelled out the principle, that what you construct as prevenient grace, is actually the change of will wrought by the Spirit of God, i.e. regeneration. Until then, no halfway grace will do the job. I note, however, that what Paul shows as a cause-and-effect sequence, is not to say that we will be aware of a time-sequence. It can be sudden, or it can occur over many long years. Our wills are not the even the pivot point, but the Grace of God is. The work of God is.

I digress. Regeneration is within. Prevenient Grace is without AKA the knock at the door.

The door must be open for regeneration to occur.

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps I wasn't descriptive enough. They are adamant that those God has chosen will indeed come to him, and that they will indeed be saved. Their confidence is rightly in God, but somewhat like the Arminians here promoting the absolute freewill of the creature, their thinking is that God variously cannot or will not do, if the person does not do first. They will also reject outright the notion that God regenerates a person as a cause of that person actually "coming to" Christ. They believe being born again is a result of submission and repentance, and not the other way around.

He worked that truth into you in a way that no man can remove.
What a blessing!

Praise the Lord!

 

[Mark Quayle]

I digress. Regeneration is within. Prevenient Grace is without AKA the knock at the door.

The door must be open for regeneration to occur.

Per Romans 8, and several other passages, the "door cannot open", until regeneration has occurred. You credit life where God describes death.

 

[Mark Quayle]

He worked that truth into you in a way that no man can remove.
What a blessing!

Praise the Lord!

Amen that!

 

[RickReads]

Lots of 'luck' with that! (snerk)

Ok, I`ll do it like this.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If regeneration occurs before Jesus arrives at the door then what is left when He sits down at the table to have supper with you?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

Someone says its grace, and what is grace, unmerited favor, and scripture says one can be saved by grace + what? Grace through faith and that not of yourself it is a gift of God, not of works lest any one should boast. For, in the sense of, because of, we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good work which God has prepared before hand that we walk in them. We walk by faith and not by sight, without faith it is impossible to please Him. Faith comes by hearing and by hearing the word of God, John 6:63 it is the spirit that quickens(makes alive) the flesh profits nothing, the words that I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life. Isa 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. 7Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8“For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10“For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And does not return there, But water's the earth, And makes it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater, 11So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. I am a simple man who at 35 began to hear and read the word of God. Coming to see my need because the word of God caused me to understand that if I believe what the bible said about "if" I believed the Jesus paid my sin debt by laying down His sinless life for whosoever believe on Him would be saved, that is what I did because He changed by life from that point on and all that I understood and came to see was true. By grace through faith and the written word though spiritual and as Isaiah 55 above stated it did not return to God void, when He said whosoever will believe would be saved, thus I still believe what the bible actually put into print and will not be persuaded unless by scripture that whosoever believes and confesses Him as Lord will also be saved. I see nothing in the scripture that changes what I posted with black letter on white print that shows up on my computer. I thank the Lord was changing my want too's, Phil 2:13. When I wake up the moment after I breathe my last breath, I believe I will then be in the presence of the Lord forever more like Jesus told Martha, did I not tell you that if one believes on Me, they shall never die! John 11: 20Then Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” 23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

If you read this and did this from your place in life, Do you believe this is actually in just what I posted without asking the what if's? or how do you know its true, even though I do not see any scripture taken out of context that would disprove what I said is scriptural. Every tub sets on its own bottom and you to yourself can agree or disagree, after 53 years I will let my tub rust on its own bottom when I departed this aging body. Hope to see you heaven. Not doubting I will be there because of faith in Him to honor His word, after all, He said it would not return to Him void but will accomplish that for which He sends it forth that whosoever believes on Him with be saved.

 

[RickReads]

Per Romans 8, and several other passages, the "door cannot open", until regeneration has occurred. You credit life where God describes death.

View attachment 317224

Tell me where Romans 8 says that.

 

[RickReads]

Amen that!

I`ll tell ya whut. I jus double-dog dare you to start that anti-arminian thread.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Ok, I`ll do it like this.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

If regeneration occurs before Jesus arrives at the door then what is left when He sits down at the table to have supper with you?

If opening the door to Christ is what results in regeneration, as opposed to being what results in fellowship and communion with Christ, then why does David beg God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? After all —is not regeneration irreversible?

But if anyone even can open the door, he has already been made alive. Or do you deny Romans 8:5-9? How does anyone to whom the Gospel is foolishness, and who is at enmity with God, and unable to submit, and without faith, unable to please God, even hear the knock?

 

[RickReads]

If opening the door to Christ is what results in regeneration, as opposed to being what results in fellowship with Christ, then why does David beg God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? After all —is not regeneration irreversible?

But if anyone even can open the door, he has already been made alive. Or do you deny Romans 8:5-9? How does anyone to whom the Gospel is foolishness, and who is at enmity with God, and unable to submit, and without faith, unable to please God, even hear the knock?

Your version of regeneration is a Calvinist doctrine that does not exist in the Bible. Biblical regeneration is the washing away of sin that comes with the impartation of the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ can be quenched and it must be renewed and is renewed daily in a healthy believer.

Keep going

 

[Mark Quayle]

I`ll tell ya whut. I jus double-dog dare you to start that anti-arminian thread.

I've been doing that since long before I ever signed onto CF, there, Yosemite Sam. Double up those fists, and come at me, ya rootin' tootin' fighter. Bugs Bunny, here, will have ya tying yerself up in knots!

Tell me where Romans 8 says that.

Already done, though you knew what I was referring to, I expect. You just want to say, "it doesn't say 'open the door'!" The fact it doesn't quote those specific words doesn't negate the fact that it does make the point, that the spiritually dead, the mind of flesh, are unable to submit to God's law, and those without faith cannot please God. Faith, and the rebirth, are the gift of God, and not of human origin.

God does not depend on the integrity, or 'reality' of constancy, understanding or seriousness and sincerity of the human will, to make the change of that very will which is part and parcel of a truly new life. It is GOD who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

 

[RickReads]

Already done, though you knew what I was referring to, I expect. You just want to say, "it doesn't say 'open the door'!" The fact it doesn't quote those specific words doesn't negate the fact that it does make the point, that the spiritually dead, the mind of flesh, are unable to submit to God's law, and those without faith cannot please God. Faith, and the rebirth, are the gift of God, and not of human origin.

God does not depend on the integrity, or 'reality' of constancy, understanding or seriousness and sincerity of the human will, to make the change of that very will which is part and parcel of a truly new life. It is GOD who works in you both to will and to do according to his good pleasure.

I asked you a legit question. I haven't a clue how I will react to your answer, for all I know this could be the one that will turn me into a Calvinist again. I`m very impressionable.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your version of regeneration is a Calvinist doctrine that does not exist in the Bible. Biblical regeneration is the washing away of sin that comes with the impartation of the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of Christ can be quenched and it must be renewed and is renewed daily in a healthy believer.

Keep going

Uh, no. Being born again doesn't need to be repeated again and again. You seem to be applying humanly understood physics to spiritual matters. Regeneration is simply the change the Spirit of God works in the corrupt will / heart of the lost. It implies, and either results in or is endemic to many descriptions the Scriptures speak of, such as being made alive, and such as the fountain of living water. The reborn have drunk from this living water, and will never thirst again.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I asked you a legit question. I haven't a clue how I will react to your answer, for all I know this could be the one that will turn me into a Calvinist again. I`m very impressionable.

And very humorous.

As I said, I already answered it, but it is simple to do so again. Shall I quote it or just reference it? Romans 8:5-9
"5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

And there are others I have mentioned; for example, there is Hebrew 11:6 "...and without faith it is impossible to please God..."



But let's hear you do more than make assertions. Let's hear you organize and defend them.

 

[RickReads]

Uh, no. Being born again doesn't need to be repeated again and again. You seem to be applying humanly understood physics to spiritual matters. Regeneration is simply the change the Spirit of God works in the corrupt will / heart of the lost. It implies, and either results in or is endemic to many descriptions the Scriptures speak of, such as being made alive, and such as the fountain of living water. The reborn have drunk from this living water, and will never thirst again.

Be fair Mark. I didn't say you repeat getting saved. I said you renew the Spirit. And your claim about regeneration isnt in the Bible.